First time buying a 4x5...begging for assistance.

Well, the subject is a tiny bit misleading, though I am looking to buy a 4x5 for the first time. My girlfriend is graduating from a pretty bigtime photo school, and I was considering purchasing for her a 4x5 camera for Christmas/Birthday/Any_other_gift_giving_occasion_for_quite_some_time.

She's getting ready to enter the world of the professional photographer, and is realizing that she will soon be without the luxury of going to the Photo building on campus and checking out cameras/lights/etc. Her big love (and talent in my opinion) is doing studio work, still life, food photo and shes made several refrences to absolutely dreaming of getting her own large format camera. I am a computer guy, so a lot of this stuff is like latin to me, but I sat down with her and got her to talk about the kind of things that were important, brands, bellows, lenses, lensboards and on and on. Anyways, to cut to the chase and ask an actual question:

I would be much indebted to anyone who could point me in the direction of any good reading material on selecting the right camera, and any other information that might lead me to knock her proverbial socks off. I'm very interested in the prospects of purchasing a used camera, but I'm quite fearful of being ripped off. If people know of nice, reputable places (other than Ebay, as that would give me a coronary) to look for used gear, as well as what I should be looking for in a "complete" package that wouldn't require lots of other "accessory" purchases on her behalf. I know shes looking for a "lens", in the 150 range, but aside from that all I know to look for is "camera and lens". Brand suggestions on good quality 4x5 cameras for an aspiring professional are also appreciated. I apologize for the length, but I've got a million questions and you good people seem to be very generous in your answers. Thank you very much for your consideration.

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-Andrew Mead

Thee a couple of very nice Sinar P2 packages on eBay right now

(save the nitroglycerin, using eBay won't give you a heart attack

i've buying over eBay for a couple of years now and haven't had a

single problem. The Sinar P2 is the best instrument for studio

photography made, shw'll be able to use it for her entire career.

Other than that I'd recommend an Arca-Swiss F-line camera. this

camera is very close to the ideal balance of ease of use/quality/

and price as you'll find. There are many other cameras that will fit

her needs but look for a camera that is a yaw free design.despite

what Bob Salomon from Linhof's USA marketing company is

gonna say about "yaw free" design being over rateed, all i can

say is in this one regard, he is wrong.A "yaw free design will

make her life in the studio much easier.

Another really good place to look for used gear is Midwest Photo

Exchange in Columbus, OH. I've always found them to be very

helpful, and they are especially eager to help younger/student

photographers (at least that's the impression I get).

Andrew... Forget about the surprise! Make sure she is by your side

when you buy her the camera. She is the only one that knows what she

wants!!!! Good Luck, Harry

If you are looking for a large format studio camera, check out the

special deals that Robert White has on the Sinar f1 and f2. His

site is at www.robertwhite.co.uk

He is a great dealer to work with and you can get items shipped

in about 3 days via UPS express.

I disagree, go ahead and surprise her. (I'm female, if that makes any

difference.) If she has been dependent on the school's cameras she

probably doesn't have a really fixed idea of what she wants/needs. You

have come to the right place for advice so she won't be disappointed.

Listen to Ellis, he knows. I have an Arca Swiss camera (for

architecture) and it is sublime. But you probably won't find a used

one. (I'm keeping mine forever.) Just make sure to buy something of

quality so if someday she does want to sell it, she can.

<p>

You are a swell boyfriend.

Wow, its been like an hour and already so many helpful responses.

You guys truly are amazing ;) keep em coming.

-akm

If she is like my wife, then go ahead and surprise her, BUT you

might also try to get a 'line' on what she wants. Ask her to take you

to a couple of dealers to show YOU how the various equipment works.

She might just lead you to what she wants.

<p>

Your thing is going to be getting the best deal you can get on

whatever you pick. Take some time looking at some websites,

Robert White in the UK, Photomark here in the US, The F-Stops

Here, and that's from a guy fairly new if LF.

<p>

After you get prices and specs, might as well come on back here,

and run it by these folks. If it's one thing you'll be sure of,

running it by these folks will give you feedback that is specific and

well though out.

Andrew,

Are you on a Cadillac budget? Used Cadillac budget? Ford budget?

You get my drift. The good folks here always recommend Cadillacs.

You can't go wrong with that. But there's lots of less impressive

names that will still get you to town and back. Just afraid perhaps

you'll price Sinars and Arca's and ditch the whole project which I'd

hate to see you do.

Ahh, budget.

Thats a tough question to answer, except "I'll know it when I see

it" :)

I've done some looking and it seems that one could potentially find

something like an Arca Swiss Discovery Kit for like 1200ish. I

suspect, though, that actually putting a lens on said camera is

another subject entirely. Heck, it seems like some lenses cost more

than the dang camera hehe. I guess its because the shutter is built

into these lenses. Lets just say, price is obviously a big concern :)

<p>

-Akm

First Option: Have here be there when you pick it out. Cameras are a

bit like clothing. What suits one doesn't suit another.

<p>

Second Option: If you absolutely have to buy it without here direct

involvement: buy it from a store that will let her return it,

preferably for cash back, if she is not satisfied. My local pro-store

will do this, even if it is used.

OK, we can get you over the lens hump without making anybody mad.

Caltar 150 either the Caltar SII which was a Schneider product (my

personal favorite) or Caltar IIN which is a Rodenstock product and

every bit as good (some would say better) will only set you back

$250-$275. These are modern premium quality lenses with no compromise

in quality. Sounds like from what you describe she actually might

enjoy a 210MM even more, but most folks do begin with the 150. Don't

buy anything to begin with that does not say COPAL on the shutter.

You mention Ebay is a concern but if someone has lots of good

feedbacks and NO negative, and they will give you a trial period with

a $ back guarantee, well I've had 0 problems but I do understand other

folks with certain personalities just can't stomach the thought. And

for that matter I also notice some of the best used dealers with

prices very near what Ebay will fetch.

Don't let anybody talk you into buying anything on the spot,

especially from a salesperson who looks like they haven't eaten in

couple of weeks, and works on commission.

Your heart's in the right place, but what you want to do screams _gift certificate_ (or something of that sort) rather than you making a purchase.

<p>

Imagine your girlfriend knows _nothing_ about computers, wants to buy you a computer, and asks around what to buy. She'll get an answer or two or three, but what do you think the chances are that she'll buy you exactly what you want? Just think; she could get a screaming deal on a nice, used computer...say, a 286. <g>

<p>

So..if you have a _good_ local dealer, perhaps you could buy what amounts to a gift certificate or open an account for her, something of that sort. You need a _professional photo equipment dealer_, not the local Ritz or whatever. Where are you?

<p>

If that won't work out, call up the guys at Calumet Photographic 1-800-CALUMET and explain what you have in mind. Calumet is a long-time good, reliable dealer who won't push something far beyond what's appropriate and won't take you to the cleaners. There are of course plenty of other good dealers, (Robert White in the UK, Darkroom Innovations / The View Camera Store, Badger Graphics etc) some with higher or lower prices than Calumet, but there's more of a need to know what you want.

<p>

Another thing; Mamiya America Corp (Toyo view cameras) and some other distributors run special deals for bona-fide students and teachers. In the case of MAC (if it hasn't changed in past year or so) you can buy items for very significantly lower prices, in many cases below common used prices. Perhaps Linhof, Sinar, Arca-Swiss offer the same sort of programs.

Forget what I said before, John's idea is better.

<p>

You'll still be a swell boyfriend.

Dear Andrew

<p>

To go over a bit of ground other have discussed, Ebay can be a

terrific avenue to get good quality cameras at reasonable prices.

Your disadvantage is that you have not tracked prices, so you might

be a bit more vulnerable than people who have been pricing cameras on

the new and used market.

<p>

Going to a dealer like Calumet or looking at their web sites or those

sites of other good dealers like B&H or Helix Photo or Samy's will

help your learning curve and perhaps help in the end decision. Look

at a magazine called View Camera and they have many advertisers who

are selling new and used equipment.

<p>

I happen to shoot Sinar. As Ellis has pointed out, there are several

interesting Sinar cameras available on Ebay. An advantage of buying

their products (and I am certain other users of other cameras may

have the same thoughts) is that they are selling a "system" which

means all the cameras can be upgraded and interchange with parts and

accessories. You and your girlfriend over the years can start with

an older P and upgrade it to become a P2 or maybe you start with

their F camera and that too can be upgraded as need and available

fund allow. That also means that new items are designed so they are

usable by older and well as the newest of cameras in their line. I

find that buying good equipment (even if it costs a bit more at the

beginning) over the years is an investment which pays off.

<p>

I wish you the best in your search. You will find the contributors

here on this forum are an excellent repository of aid, assistance and

ideas.

<p>

Regards,

<p>

John

Andrew,

<p>

I still think suprising her would be awesome! It is true that you

may not get what she wants but if you buy it new from a honest

large dealer like Bager graphics, you can get it exchanged (or

refunded) at the cost of shipping.

<p>

After your girlfriend receives her present, you can tell her

(besides other sweet things) that you wanted to suprise her even

though you were concerned that it may not be what she would

buy for herself. Then tell her that you are perfectly comfortable

with her choosing something else if she would like.

<p>

Frankly, though, if you get her an Arca-swiss F and an 150mm

Rodenstock S lens, the chances are good that she will keep it.

Badger (talk to Jeff) has good prices and is very honest. Just let

him know your situation.

<p>

I know you girlfriend will think very highly of your gift (whether or

not she keeps it!)

<p>

Merry Christmas! -Nick

and it is OK with you if she

Andrew,

<p>

One last thing. Realize that just getting her the camera would be

enough. You can let her pick up the lens and accessories. The

great thing about LF equipment is that it is totally mix and match

as you may have found out in your research. Best of luck!

<p>

-Nick

I agree with the Sinar's and another good one is the Cambo line found

at www.calumet.com. A Cambo SCX was my first studio camera and I love

it. SC's are nice too and can be gotten at Ebay for pretty short money.

As you have found out, there is alot of good people around here with

alot of good info but everyone is going to have a different preference.

For studio stuff though, I would recommend more in the 210mm range. It

will give you a better perspective in my opinion. You might think of a

good light meter (strobe capabable) like a Sekonic 408, Minolta V or

there abouts, a Polaroid holder, film holders (you can never have

enough!!!), a good loupe will be a good stocking stuffer and is very

much needed, a very good tripod is also needed (Bogen & Gitzo's are

good).

Hope this helps a little.

Cheers

I have and like the Arca-Swiss a lot for a higher end camera. Plus,

it's convenient in the field, unlike cameras like the Sinar-P. As a

less expensive alternative, the Cambo N series provides a lot of

flexibility, all the accessories one's likely to need, etc. Not so

good in the field, however.

<p>

What are your misgivings regarding EBay? Perhaps you're not into the

thrill of those last second bids, getting them in just under the wire

before anyone else realizes that they've been outbid. In this case,

the Buy-It-Now option is the one for you. Good values can be had

using this option.

<p>

Or, if it's the stress of not knowing if you'll receive the goods

you've just paid $100's of dollars for, then make sure that, whomever

you select from which to purchase, they have lots of good feedback

AS SELLERS with minimal or no negative responses. The only bad deal

I've had on EBay was one that, from the minimal feedback they had

received, was questionable.

<p>

Good luck.

Lots of good posts re: the camera and lens decision. I agree on

leaving the more esoteric accessories to her, but since you're new to

view cameras, here is a short list of the things that you need to

make one of these work:

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The Camera

The Lens

A Lensboard

A Tripod (with head)

Film Holders

Film

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There are a ton of other things that are helpful (almost necessary),

but you can take a photo with these things alone, and you cannot

without all of them (except arugably the tripod).

<p>

If you buy a kit, there's a good chance you'll get everything but the

film and the tripod, but if you buy separately, and want to get her

a "complete" photo making machine, make sure you have each of these.

<p>

As for stores, I've been extremely happy with Midwest Photo Exchange

(mentioned earlier). Their staff is super helpful and guided me to

several of my first purchases. Their used selection is pretty

extensive too.

<p>

For new stuff (film especially), I really like B&H, very professional

and good prices. It's a much bigger operation than Midwest though,

and you might not get the same personal attention. B&H does have a

used department that is pretty good also.

<p>

I'm sure there are a bunch of other great stores that deal over

telephone/internet, but my experiences have been mostly with B&H and

Midwest. KEH is good too, but I've only dealt with their 35mm and

medium format gear, so don't know too much about their large format.

<p>

Now, for accessories that are not absolutely necessary, but pretty

much everyone uses:

<p>

Darkcloth

Focusing Loupe

Meter

Polaroid Back

<p>

The Darkcloth is the subject of great debate, but can be improvised

until she figures out what she wants. The Focusing Loupes can be

very expensive, but you can at least start with a simple <$10 one

that Ritz camera carries for looking at 35mm negatives on the light

table. The meter is going to be something she should probably pick

out herself based on what she's doing with the camera.

<p>

Finally, the Polaroid back. While arguably the least necessary of

the previously mentioned items, from a gift excitement point of view,

could be pretty cool. With the Polaroid back, she could pull the

camera out of the wrapping, go outside and make a photo immediately.

I'd bet that almost all of us shooting 4x5 have the 545 or 545i

holder in our bags, and she'd probably want to get one pretty shortly

after getting the camera anyway. They make a number of different

films for this holder (color print, black and white print, positive

negative [my personal fav.]).

<p>

Without the polaroid, she'd have to load film holders and process

film before getting a result, i.e. it could be some time before she's

able to "use" the camera.

<p>

Again, it depends on your budget, etc. The Polaroid holder runs

about $100 used and a box of film runs about $50-$60 I think.

I haven't read the above answers, so if I'm repeating one, oops...

<p>

Given her interest in studio work, make sure you get a monorail view

camera. A wooden field camera looks beautiful but is really inferior

to a monorail except in the portability department (and more

expensive, on the low end at least). I have a wooden camera, but

then my interest is hiking and taking nature photos. Calumet sells

an inexpensive monorail (the Cadet) that is well regarded from what

I've read. Whatever you get, I'd buy from a reputable dealer and

take delivery shortly before you're going to give it. That way it

can be exchanged easily if she would really prefer something else.

Be willing to spend more on the lens than on the camera. After all,

the lens creates the image, the camera just holds the lens and film

in place... New Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock, and Fuji lenses are

all good. Again, since it's studio usage, look for larger image

circles. There is a great lens comparison table (and tons of other

great info, much of it for the first time buyer/user) at

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~qtluong/photography/lf/

<p>

While this violates the "Don't give women anything useful" rule

(sticking to aesthetic gifts like jewelry, flowers, etc.) I have to

think this gift is going to be a winner.

Thanks for all of your help guys and gals, this is invaluable.

<p>

In speaking with a dealer, a Horseman system was suggested. Here are the specs...

<p>

Horseman LE Camera, Schneider 150mm Apo Symmar lens and panel.

<p>

Anyone have experience with this camera? Pros/cons? This appears to be in the neighborhood of my price points (ha). Any feedback as always is appreciated :)

<p>

-Andrew

The Horseman LE is a fine camera, and many studio photographers use

this type of camera.

<p>

I think 150mm is a bit too short for the type of photography you've

described. For studio work, you generally want to get farther back

from the subject to get better "drawing". I'd try a 210mm, maybe even

longer.

Don't ask a dealer. Ask her or if not her, then her teacher. A

dealer wants to sell you what they have. I agree about a 210mm

sounding right. BUt ask her instructor.