lookin for advice on a beginner TLR 6x6 camera

Hi all,

 

I would like to dabble with shooting and developing 6cm x 6cm medium

format film. I see quite a few very cheap Russian made Lubitel 166B

camera on ebay and was wondering if this is a good camera to start

with? Or are they total junk with not enough functional features to

allow one to experiencing the challenge and joy of shooting (and

developing) medium format film?

 

Also, if you have a better suggestion for a low end 6 x 6 TLR that

may offer more, please let me know.

 

Any suggestions or opinions would be appreciated.

 

 

Thanks, Mark

Not a low-end TLR, but for about $100 you can get an old working Rolleiflex Automat here in germany on eBay. These are surprisingly low priced right now and are much better built than the Lubitels. And prices don't get much lower than these. There is one right now here: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1359486827 ...

In either case you have to get a separate meter which adds to the cost. Yashicamats ore other older used cameras may also be an option; the mats mostly feature a built-in meters, but a Rollei is a Rollei ...

Why buy a questionable camera when you can get a Rolliflex with a 3.5 Tessar lens for $200-300. Even if you get it serviced (probably necessary) and a modern, bright screen (total another $300 max) you will have a camera you can give to your grandchildren. Or, if you want interchangable lenses get a Mamiya C220 or C330. With the 80 mm lens you can get a nice C220 for $300, maybe less. A CLA for the lens is about $65.

Buy quality, you will never regret it. If you decide medium format is not for you, you will get most if not all of your money back when you sell.

Your second guess is correct: the Lubitel is total junk.

 

A Yashica TLR is a fine camera and can be had cheaply if you look hard enough. Ones with the four element Yashinon lens are usually a little more expensive, perhaps $150 and up. But if you can find a ready to use, working condition Yashica A with a three element Yashikor lens for under $75, you will have yourself a very useable camera. I've seen good results with such a camera, especially B&W.

 

The one thing you'll need to look out for is that the shooting lens is clean and free of fungus or haze.

 

A good FAQ is here

http://www.williamsphotographic.com/ocr/mf/yashica.html

I fully agree with the previous answers. If I were you I would look for a good Yashica Mat 124 G or, better but a bit more expensive, a Mamiya 330 (f/s) with an 105 or 135mm lens. About the Mamiya's, take care not to buy the lenses with chrome lenses but the all black ones.

 

As has been said, the Mamiya offers interchangeble lenses. The 330 is a bit more easy to work with than the 220.

 

Good luck, Frank

Looking for a Lubitel suggests you're eyeing something cheap, right? This camera has a four-element Luxamor (later called Yashinon):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1360131539

 

This may be even better:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1360284262

 

Those are good prices, especially if the people selling it are describing them accurately.

Noone here has nominated the venerable Rolleicord yet as a possible candidate for the job.

 

I believe from the model V upwards, they offer EV lock which makes transferring the reading off a handheld meter with EV readout really quick and easy.

 

They also have a nice lens in the form of a Schneider Xenar which is close in performance if not equal to the CZ Tessar of the R'flex T. Cords generally go for between USD$80-300 on Ebay depending on the model and condition they are in.

 

They are very solid cameras. Dropped mine once onto Bitumen - it 'bounced' twice. I picked it up expecting the worse but there was nothing wrong with it apart from a small ding on the corner of the WLF. Continued shooting with the roll that was still in it and it has continued to serve me well ever since(>30 rolls). I'd like to see one of today's new fangled plastic fantastics survive the fall mine did and still work flawlessly.

As has been mentioned, you cannot go wrong with an older Rollei or even a Yashicamat 124. However there's also the Mamiya 220 which was a lower-end version of the 330. These are available very inexpensively. One advantage to going the Mamiya route is the ability to (and the availablity of) interchange(able) lenses.

 

Cheers,

Just for argument's sake, there's also the Minolta Autocord. But personally I recommend a good C330f, since that's the camera I used to start out in medium format. Now, two and a half years later, I'm still using it and still quite pleased with the results.

Hasn't this thread been through the discussion forum about a

thousand times by now? :-)

 

Lubitels are mostly junk and can leave a bad impression of

medium format.

 

I usually suggest a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord as they are very high

quality cameras and can outlive the learning phase of your

endeavors easily. I prefer the Rolleiflexes because they have a

more sophisticated, easier to use loading system and generally

a brighter viewfinder. A 1950 to 1956 Rolleiflex 3.5 MX series

camera is generally available in good condition for a reasonable

amount of money, has an excellent lens, is repairable, and if

maintained in good condition can continue to operate as a

professional picture taking workhorse for the foreseeable future.

 

Given a CLA and fitted with a Maxwell focusing screen like my '51

3.5MX Tessar, they're as good as any modern 6x6 camera for

the vast majority of general purpose photography. Mine cost me

$185 plus $220 for the CLA and screen installation, a

tremendous value for the quality of the camera.

 

Godfrey

IMO, your best bet is definitely a Rolleicord/Rolleiflex or a Mamiya. I have both, and I think the big advantage of the Mamiyas are the wonderful interchangeable lenses (but this is not an issue if you don't plan on buying any other lenses), and the Mamiya film loading/film flatness, which I vastly prefer over the Rolleiflex. This may sound trivial, but you will do a lot of film loading and unloading in a TLR, and I find the Mamiya design (film goes straight-off the spool from bottom to top with no film bending) is ideal.

 

The Rolleis are just beautiful designs that will never be outdated in my opinion, and you will be using really fantastic lenses (Xenar/Tessar, Planar/Xenotar). Don't get caught-up in the "which lens is better" argument -- you will probably not be able to tell the difference.

 

You can't go wrong with either Rolleiflex or Mamiya. Do your research on this forum and the Medium Format Cameras page and you will find more than enough information. PLEASE don't waste your money on a Lubitel. Buy quality and use it for the rest of your life.

I once owned a c.1939 Rolleiflex and it was a great camera. I

put $60. into a CLA and the only shortcoming it had was when

shooting into the sun as the lenses were not coated. Big deal. It

helped my darkroom technique!

 

I also own a Yashicamat 124G and it has superior lenses on it.

While working at a camera shop one year I did a side by side

comparison w/ a Hassleblad. Both cameras on sticks, same

film, 80 mm lens, development etc. etc. Enlarged to 8x8 you

couldn't tell the difference.

 

A really great camera.

<img src="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=827336&size=lg">

 

The above photo was taken when I was in high school with a Yashicamat LM. This was one of the first successful photos I made, winning 3rd place in the national Kodak high school photo contest.

 

A TLR will do just what you want it to do.

 

A Yashica TLR is a good bet both functionally and economically. A nice Yashica D or 635 should be under $100 on auction (a bit more if you want it from a store with a warranty). These have very good three element lenses and perform wonderfully in making fine images when stopped down a bit. 4 element Yashinon units cost more.

 

The next step, and a very good one, is an early simple Minolta Autocord. The Rokkor lens is outstanding whether on an Autocord, on an old MD SLR lens, or on the Leitz Minolta CL. Best optics around.

 

The next step in snob recognition (only kidding) is a Rolleicord or early Rolleiflex. These usually need a good CLA since the shutter and winding mechanisms tend to gum-up with dried grease...a common, but solvable, problem. See my question above (when I get it on) about my new Rolleicord.

Ah yes...I must submit in HTML!

 

<img src="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=827336&size=lg">

fuhgeddaboutit! consider your budget first, and as all before me gave their opinion these are tlr you should consider. yashica tlr (124g) or 635, minolta autocord, rolleicord ( if i were you save a lil bit to get a rolleiflex), rolleiflex and last is mamiya c330 or 220( with lenses range to choose), so do your homework and some comparison, there are lots of threads about tlr here, and also look around on ebay for price range, enjoy your search and good luck on your next step into medium format world!!! ciao

 

Ike

How much are you willing to spend for the camera? Are you willing to go through the hassle of selling it if you don't like it?

 

I have about all the above mentioned TLRs (except the Autocord), and the Lubitel has indeed the lowest quality of them all. But I think I'll rather call it a toy camera than a junk camera. The 166B is indeed completely made of plastic and the shutter of mine opens partly when using the selftimer, so the quality is bad. But if you can buy it cheap then surely you can give it a try. The camera has all the options you need and if you find out you like shooting 6x6 than you can always upgrade to a Rolleicord/Rolleiflex or Mamiya. If you don't like it than you still can keep the funny looking USSR made camera.

 

Siu Fai

Two points: (1) decide how much you want to spend and (2) I'll tell you my experience.

 

(1) If you're like me, looking to get in on an absolute minimum investment, here's my thought. You can definitely get good deals on Yashica Mats and Rolleicords on E-Bay. Just make sure your seller can either give you a good description (especially view from rear through taking lens and status of shutter speeds) OR will take it back if you find a problem. Prices on E-Bay for some of the better, more readily-available choices:

 

Yashica (see http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/yashica66.html, http://www.williamsphotographic.com/yashica.html, and http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~coreya/yashica/tlrhist.html)

Yashica Mat: $50-$75; no meter; be sure to get better Yashinon (a/k/a Luxamore (sp?) lens

Yashica Mat LM: $55-$85; like Yashica Mat, but with oddball, not-too-accurate light meter

Yashica Mat EM: $60-$100; like Yashica Mat LM, but light meter a bit more conventional in operation

Yashica Mat 12 (somtimes Yashica 12): $85-$110; somewhat more modern light meter, but needs obscure/obsolete battery or adapter ($29) to make light meter work

Yashica Mat 124: $95-$150+; like Yashica Mat 12, but also handles 220 film

Yashica Mat 124G: $100-$300+; like Yashica Mat 124, but lenses may have better coating, cosmetically different, more plastic parts

 

Rollei (see http://www.geocities.com/heidoscop/rolleicord_iv.htm)

Rolleicord IV: $80-$125+

Rolleicord V: $100+

Rolleicord Va: $110+

Rolleicord Vb: $125+

 

Note that Minolta Autocord might also be a good choice, but are relatively scarce on E-Bay and seem to command premium prices. (See http://www.wctatel.net/web/crye/a-cord.htm and http://members.aol.com/manualminolta/mintlr.htm)

 

(2) Now for my experience. I got a Yashica Mat EM for $62 on E-Bay. It seems to work fine (I haven't timed the shutter speeds), and the taking lens is in pretty good shape. The light meter is not too accurate; mine reads about 2 EV high in low light (e.g., it reads about 8 EV when it's really about 6 EV) and somewhat high, probably about 1 EV, in brighter light. I get better results with the "Sunny 16" rule than I do with the meter.

 

I find myself taking a lot more time with the Yashica Mat. There is a real benefit to a camera that forces you to focus and set the aperture and shutter manually, especially one that only holds 12 shots and is more difficult than a 35mm to load. That alone is a real benefit of the TLR.

 

I am quite happy with my purchase. It was dirt cheap, I could get my money back out, and it fits my bill. I'd say it's better to get a good used item than a mediocre to poor new one (although I have no personal experience with Lubitels). To others who say spend $500 on a Rolleiflex and be happy with quality, I say enjoy! For me it was a case of the wife not batting an eye at a $62 camera when she would have questioned a $500 camera. Besides, I *suspect* that on the whole, my Yashica Mat takes pictures 90%, and maybe every bit, as good as a Rolleicord, and probably 80% as good as a Rolleiflex. One day I might buy a Hasselblad, but for now I'm having fun with very little outlay.

 

That said, a Rolleicord would be nice too, but the Yashica Mats are on the average newer and most have meters which do provide some frame of reference. A Minolta Autocord would be nice, but E-Bay is not a treasure trove of them.

 

Final advice: by all accounts all of these TLR's need lens hoods/shades--get one.

 

Good luck.

 

Dave

Of all TLR's made in Japan, the primoflex by TOPCON has the best reputation. I'm drooling for one.

 

If you are looking for an inexpensive TLR, you might want to look at Ricohflex also. It's even smaller than the Autocord. I have seen pictures taken by the Ricohflex, and they are quite decent. The only limiting factor is that it has limited shutter speed (At least the model I looked at).

When thinking about getting into MF, I actually decided to get a Lubitel, just to 'try out' medium format, before spending �150ish (gbp) on a better camera. It did what I wanted, which was to persuade me that it was worth getting a better camera.

 

But I think it was a worthwhile test, to know that I didn't hate the square format, and could deal with MF negs. And suprisingly, the lens isn't all that bad, but the body lets the lubitel (mine was a 166b) down badly - Light leaks that I couldn't stop mainly.

 

I can't offer much advice on a better TLR, but I do like my Rolleicord Vb, and although it was fairly cheap - �125 from ffordes.com, I wouldn't describe it as low-end.

 

My advice would be to dive in - everyone seems to like what they get, and then reccomends it as by far the best to anyone who'll ask! Just find somewhere that will take it back if faulty though.

 

James