What Is Post Modernism In Photography?

"3 : modern artistic or literary philosophy and practice;

especially : a self-conscious break with the

past and a search for new forms of expression" .....That includes

any and everybody who decides to take up photography or the Arts or

whatever. Everybody beleives they can be a little different and

somehow bring a new wrinkle to the party.

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Picasso or whoever the hell it was said that 'everybody steals,

it's just that some people disquise it better than others', there is

no art that is brand new or totally different, it's all connected.

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I admire Shakespeare as a playwright, but nobody talks that much

during lovemaking.

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All this macaroni about classifications, the only classification

that means anything is whether it's good or lousy, regardless of

whether it's Classical, Jazz, Pop, Pictorialism, or the abrasion

process.

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A 'Blank Canvas' and flicking splatters of paint onto a large

canvas spread out onto the floor is not Art. One has nothing in it,

and the other has absolutely no frame of reference, a lot of people

produce stuff, they don't have any more of an idea of what it is than

whoever's looking at it, unlike the best abstract Art which always had

something you could latch onto.

postmodernism - comes from architecture! an interpretation of old

styled buildings in a new way - somtimes with no function. it´s over

for round 10 years.

marcus schwier

Dear chris,

Please tell me how an "european approach " is supposed to be

like, my snobbish friend.

You tell me that all i do is to snipe to the opinion of others, what i

tell you is that i cannot stand gratuitous destructive critique of

other artists work if the source shows ignorance and a certain

lack of open mindedness.

Further on i have only been sniping at you only , Chris, at nobody

else..

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I get outraged when i see people criticising other people effort

to express themselves. Just say that you don't like their work,

don't be so pretencious as if you were the torch bearer of the

right approach to photography.

Remember that photography itself in the times of Daguerre

had been seen as an heresy....

You say that what you state is only an opinion and that you are

ready to an open debate of some sort ...

If it is only your opinion how can you tell Rebecca all that , as if it

was carved in stone?

I am not interested to change your mind with a debate , because

yours is an attitude , not a position where you place yourself in

the artworld.

You show not only ignorance but an underlying frustration as an

artist .....

\Grow my friend, grow

"Quot capita, tot sensus" (There are as many opinions as there are

heads.) --Terentius

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Domenico: If a person states an opinion then states their

perspective, they're free to do it. Personally, I only get riled

when the person stating another opinion doesn't also state an

alternative. I like to hear about alternatives, and especially a

short, concise statement of philosophy. If you want to really take a

look at Chris' own photography, take a look at his website, and then

see how what he says here matches with what he prints. As far as I'm

concerned, that's the real test.

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One thing I have found out about photography: I almost always think

to myself, "why oh why did you point your camera that way?" When I

view a number of modern photographers, I think to myself, "Wow! What

a shrewd marketing genius this person must be!" or else "What a load

of crap!"

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I think that artwork should invigorate a person. If it invigorates

me as much as my home-roasted coffee, so much the better. I don't

see that with "postmodern" photography. I don't like the idea that a

photograph should leave you feeling violated or drained. I call it

as I see it: garbage. I really think that the people who produce

that drek know it for what it is, and then they spend their time

writing their ad copy to sell it.

Brian:

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Or, to quote that great Moral Philosopher, Larry Flint: "Opinions are

like assholes- everybody has one". Or- Louis Armstrong on Jazz: "If

you have to have it explained, you'll never understand it".

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If you want to get enmeshed in sopme real post-modern(even the use

of "pomo" is an example of Post Modernist morbidity) fecal matter,

try listening to the justification of the Post WW 1 Vienese trauma of

12 tone serial music. Finally after 80 years of Webern, Berg and too

many others, music is again an emotional expression to which we can

sing dance.

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Cheers

Art is the ability to view life differently through the

inspiration of another, those who can provide that inspiration on a

consistent basis are Artists and Artisans, although Art, and Artistry

can come albeit accidentally from anybody.

The Art of true friendship, the Art of love, the Art of living,

all involve the inspiration gotten from another and/or their

paintings, sculptures, writings, performance Art, or whatever conduit

this inspiration travels through.

This is a lot of fun.

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Brian,everybody is entitled to an opinion, i agree with you, but

when somebody asks informations about something that's all

He or she Should get( in this case Rebecca) ,.

She was asking for informations not opinions.

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Brian,Why are you so interested in my opinion?

why is so important to you?

If you are an artist in the true sense of the word you should

understand that there are no clean cut denominations, evrything

blends together .

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You say that Art is supposed to invigorate the viewer:

invigorate,...it could be...

Art has many different aims , it can caress people estetics, it can

challenge people estetics, it can riaffirm people's view of life, but

it can also challenge it.

It can shake people beliefs, it can be a social commentarie, it

can have a spiritual connotations, it can offend some people and

and riaffirm other people views.

Art can also leave you feeling crappy.

Art , in its true essence is a huge deal, has a higher goal than

that of hanging off your walls.

If people want to break loose from stagnant rules that keep art

as a mere rapresentation of form , without any substance to it ,

they deserve all my respect. Will i like it? It doesn't matter.

If a work doesn't have depth, i will not tear the artist to pieces. I

will hope that something will happen in his or her life to get in

those depths where an artist can strive,

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You cannot just generalize talking about PoMo how you call it, it

is a simplistic way of hiding your ignorance.

There are among what some of you call Post-Modern

photographers, plenty of extremely talented ones.

What you and Chris Jordan don't like , is the fact they challenge

the idea of how a camera , or film or paper or any other

photographic tool should be used.

An artist should be free to get to his or her goal by any means

necessary.

You see , in art especially there should be no" shoulds".

I . personally , don't like the work of Ansel Adams , but i own all

his books because the man has done to photography such a

service with his technical knowledge.

Chris Jordan defines the work of PoMo photographers

recognisable for the burnt edges in the prints etc, but maybe he

is not aware that Durhkroop in the late 1800 was applyng "tricky

edge effects" in his gorgeous bromoils.

Also how can we deny the artistic value of works from people

like Drtikol, Tomatsu, Rainer, Maar, Whitkin?

There are so many more.....

Why are we so adamant against the work of other people?

Why don't we realise that it is really our problem if we are so

outraged by it?

How can we espect that the creative process should be dealt by

other artists in the way we conceive it?

I have given my view that you wanted, i could have been more

specific , but as i said before i have no intention to change

anybody's opinions.

I will stand alone (sigh!), by my ideas in this ocean of "purists".

> The "rocks, lakes, trees" bunch are also post-modern, having >

skipped

> modernism altogether. While their product is derided because it

> graces calendars, it IS there BECAUSE it's worth looking at for a

> whole month at a time by a large mass of people.

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And then, of course, happily dispossed of after 30 day. It's decor.

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> and

> print them with tricky edge effects and other gimmicks (such as

> enormous size and cutesy frames) to hide their pathetic lack of

> substance,

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Why the issue with printing things big? I've always felt it rather

strange that we always insist on printing things in minature?

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tim

> The "rocks, lakes, trees" bunch are also post-modern, having

>skipped

> modernism altogether. While their product is derided because it

> graces calendars, it IS there BECAUSE it's worth looking at for a

> whole month at a time by a large mass of people.

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And then, of course, happily dispossed of after 30 day. It's decor.

<p>

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> and

> print them with tricky edge effects and other gimmicks (such as

> enormous size and cutesy frames) to hide their pathetic lack of

> substance,

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Why the issue with printing things big? I've always felt it rather

strange that we always insist on printing things in minature?

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tim

I waited a while before replying to those who replied to me. It

seems that anyone who has no use for postmodernism (me) is obviously

ignorant or stupid. I still think most if not all of it is worthless

self-posturing. There are many many photographs that need no words

to accompany them and so they indeed *stand on their own*. Given a

choice, I prefer the "rocks and trees" work. I prefer well made

portraits also. It's not that I don't get it, maybe the problem is

that I do get it. Let's say I decide to photograph road kills, and

then write a lot of words about how it parallels the futility of life

(a little nihilism for flavoring). Or, I pee in the snow and

photograph it and then say it represents the fleeting nature of

existence. Is it art? No, it is still junk. Now suppose I

deliberately break all the "rules" of good composition and good

lighting, and then for fun, screw up the development too. Is it

art? No, it's garbage. Now if I buy a bunch of worms at the bait

shop, dip them in paint and then drop them on a canvas to crawl

around, someone will call it art and buy it (that really happened a

few years ago). Another "expert" waxed poetic about a painting that

was nothing more than the scrawlings of a chimpanzee. So what is

art, and why do we have to like whatever the hucksters present to

us???

Steve, nobody said stupid.

And i realized just now that when i said ignorant i was wrong ,

even though wasn't intended with malice.

I take it back and i apologize for what i said , sometimes as a

Mediterranean , i am too passionate, and let my emotions seep

through.

What i should have said was " afraid".

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I think is a mistake restrict photography to thet raditional role that

has had so far for the most part,, in a way i define myself a

trditional photographer ,sometime i enjoy to break loose in my

work, but for me composition, tonal values, and other important

quality i are still vital in my images.

I believe that when we reject new ideas, because they go against

our s, we are just giving voice to our fears.

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This behaviour restricts the potential of photography, which is

truly vast.

We have in our hands a series of tools that can give many

different characteristics to our finished images...

How many times has anybody had a voice inside that wanted to

do something against the grain i n an image and refrained from

doing it just because of self-censorship?

Not only has there been monkey business,.....there was a well

documented case of about 20yrs ago of an Elephant making big money for

his paintings. Everybody know from the start it was an Elephant and

he still made money.

So while everyone is going quiet around the dying fire I'll just

shove another wet log in the coals(a few disapproving grimaces from

across the settling cloud of sparks and ash). Ah-hem... Forgive my

interrupting the cricket in the background, but I always thought that

many forms of art(skills really) are almost like dots surrounding a

ball, all connected to it in tentacles growing in size as it

approaches the surface(pro-pomo people present will probably have no

problem visualising this, alas in some randomly twisted way). If you

are in the state of mind that places you at one(or many) of these

points then you are a purist(a master maybe or trying to master a

craft). A voyage towards the edge takes you further away from

mathematical precision and closer to chaos, aka the ball, where

things are rarely repeatable and often includes illegal substances

(probably related). In there anything goes. Elephants painting,

edge effects, digital effects(sorry), worms drowning in paint, hippy

young people subjecting mediums(the points) and sometimes themselves

to a variety of strange new experiences and generally pomo aplenty -

much of which should bypass censorship all together and be plucked

out of existence. Naturally those at the points will disapprove of

those further down(somewhat akin to road rage when the 'assholes'

drive faster than you and the 'idiots' drive slower). Fwiw, I

personally don't mind those skimming at the edge, it makes for new

art 'points' to be pulled out into outer perfection, the ball is

after all where a lot of creation takes place(those pro-pomo around

the fire are probably staring perplexed at the embers by now, the

others are in various states of siesta and by the sound of it the

cricket's still hoping he'll get a humpin before morning)

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I know a potter who explicitly makes bowls, vases, plates and such

mundane crockery to perfection. Asking her to make anything that

vaguely falls below her standards is nothing short of an insult, and

rightly so. She is a master at what she makes, anyone who ever saw

her work would agree, whether or not it would grace the walls of

some 'fashion museum', awaiting judgement. And that is just my

point, if you make something and wish many other people to see it

then you should be 100% prepared for criticism. But on top of that,

if someone thinks it is post modern(again, it depends only on where

on the tentacle they are stuck) then you'd better exchange yours for

a QuickLight2000[TM] Torch instead(Or the XP version if you are one

of those who are fooled by midnight commercials). Not exactly 2

cents, I suppose. If you're pro-pomo YMMV a lot. :)

Well put Riaan. I kind of nodded off at one point, but the rythm of

your words was very pleasant.<p>William Blake condensed the essence of

artistic and spiritual aspiration in the phrase "To see the world in a

grain of sand".<br>I would hope that anyone with any artisitic leaning

has their moments of sublime understanding, where that phrase

expresses their state of mind and spirit perfectly. However, it takes

an exceptional artist to convey that feeling in their work, and even

more rarely does that work convey those same feelings to every

beholder. The fact that there isn't always a direct connection between

the artist and their every viewer doesn't mean that the whole process

is wrong.<br>Yes, we all percieve a work in a different and individual

way. But no, no, NO, that doesn't give the 'artist' the right to show

us any old shit; on the understanding that we'll put our own

interpretation on it anyway.<br>The difference is: between Blake

penning a poem which expressed his feeling of spiritual oneness with

the godhead and the universe, and him simply showing us a grain of

sand and letting us draw our own conclusions.<br>One approach takes

the courage to bare one's soul; the other doesn't even have the

courage of its own convictions.<p>If art reflects life, then I suppose

a post-modern movement is only to be expected. After all, we have

a society which hero-worships and highly rewards some of its least

useful members, and in which many individuals seek to aportion blame

for every unpalatable aspect of their lives. We also have 'content

free' theatre, television and politics. Why not a content-free art

movement, where the artist denies any responsibility to their

audience?

Pete, I'm right there with you on those comments-- very well put. I

agree that the postmodern movement was inevitable because art reflects

the culture of its time, and this is what's going on in our time.

But, to me that's a sad, pessimistic result. My own opinion and hope,

is that artists view their role as ELEVATING, rather than merely

accepting and reflecting, the state of the world they live in. So, if

an artist believes we live in a disjointed out-of-focus soul-less

society, than that's all the more reason to work harder than ever to

change that by producing works of depth and character and substance,

rather than simply taking disjointed out-of-focus soul-less

photographs.

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To me, the latter approach is a cop-out. It allows the artist (sadly)

to sit back and passively accept and wallow in the negativity he

perceives, without making the effort to discover and capture substance

or beauty or meaning in the world (and in his life). If all artists

followed such a path, then the result would be a slow downward

spiral-- crappy culture leads to crappy art, which influences culture

to be more crappy, and so on. That's the message I want to whisper in

the ears of PoMo artists: art influences people, including your own

self, so put out the effort to make yours good!

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~cj

This is one of the good things of Art, it gives different impression

and meaning to each viewer.

What the previous poster sees as acceptance of the state of the

world we live in i interpret it as a rebellion and critique and

description of the alienation human being are experiencing.

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What i see in many landscape photographer instead is a total

denial of what's going on in and around themselves and use

their craft as a form of self-masturbation.

Having said this , i will also say that. probably both sides have a

legitimate space. You cannot always be in owe of nature and you

cannot always look at reality with a critical eye. The exhistence of

both is necessary .

The shame is that some individuals are not aware that at the

end we are all working for the same purpose, and allow

themselves to be so negative toward other people work.

That's a shame.