"Big" cameras, public lands, oversight & nuisances.

Ok, so it's last friday afternoon, I'm in Rhyolite NV., about 7:20 PM, and I've worked my way up what I think is an old RR right-of-way until I've finally got the angle and elevation I want for a shot of the old Bullfrog and Goldfield depot. I put the 210 G-Claron on and remove the front element and stretch the bellows on the Z VI out about as far as they'll go. I've got about 3 minutes until the sun will drop behind the hills behind me and my light will be gone, just enjoying myself to the hilt, when I notice an old yellow Honda trail 90 turn onto the right of way and head my direction. 40 seconds later the guy pulls up and he's got a BLM hat on and he says "Are you a commercial enterprise?" So much for that euphoria, not to mention the light.

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Now I understand that we have designated these folks to oversee our real estate for us, and if 3 vans pulled up with lights and models and products I'd be cheering him on. But how do we help them to know that the folks that just happen to enjoy looking at the world upside down should be left alone? I've had similar experiences down the road in Death Valley, except they weren't near as nice as this guy. In fact if you've got a "big" camera in Death Valley, beware.

The owners and managers of any land have every right to ask about

visitors' motives, and their mere asking shouldn't spoil your euphoria

(heavens, I'd be perpetually gloomy if I let each such incident spoil

my day!). If they have no case, they'll leave you alone; if you're on

land you shouldn't be, you can't blame the messenger for telling you

so.

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When I have these encounters, I always just smile and cheerfully say,

"No, just a hobbyist." A smile can go a surprisingly long way.

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Fwiw, I've had no trouble with view cameras in Death Valley, in a wide

variety of locations. Again, though, I keep smiling when I encounter

anyone and if they ask what I'm doing, I reassure them that I'm not a

commercial enterprise--just a nature lover trying to get good

pictures.

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..........

Try going here for starters and hunting around:

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/what/commercial/filming/

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Looks to me like you dont really need a permit....

I have run into both types, going to the extremes both ways. I now

carry a tape recorder with me to tape my field notes & when

approached by any of these government jokers with a rotten attitude I

turn on the recorder... quietly and without letting them know so I

have the conversation on tape. It works wonders later in getting

someone fired!

I tell them NO, not commercial work. Some don't believe it no matter

how much you say it as you are using a "professional camera". (since

all cameras are designed to take pictures, that is their use and

their only use... all cameras are 'professional cameras'). But rather

than get into a discussion on it I often move on rather than get

hassled by a jerk who keeps insisting I must be doing commercial work

if I have a big camera. It matters not that my little old 5x7 &

lenses cost less than a nice shiny Nikon F5.

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I then at times go with the 'editorial' photographer stance since

much of what I do is for publication. If they still get pissed they

are in that catagory of government jackass that the tape recorder

will be used to save my bacon & try to get them fired. I record it

all & file a formal complaint later... starting with the office of my

U.S. Senator. S*** rolls downhill & when it comes from this high it

hits hard.

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There is absolutely NO reason for most of these guys to ask any

questions at all unless you are doing something wrong, in the wrong

place or there is a situation that came up they have to tell you

about, like you are standing on a rattlesnake or some such. Editorial

and personal work are just fine on public land but big cameras or big

lenses are idiot magnets of the finest kind. Set one up & some idiot

comes over. An 'official idiot' is the worst... and most who work for

BLF, Forest Service, National Park Service & various State agencies

do not fall into this catagory. Most don't like these powermad fools

any more than we do.

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If all else fails, produce a business card from another business & go

with the hobby line... since it is generally true. Many of us who

photograph full time, especially in the outdoors, do this as a hobby

after any commercial shooting is over. I find that having a few cards

identifying myself as a Civil Rights attorney works very well, the

implied threat of producing that card works like a charm. I

don't 'say' I am an attorney, they just kind of assume it when I hand

it to them, and I do have a good lawyer to call if there are any more

problems.

Dear Jim

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Look on the 'home page' of this forum under 'Travels' and you will

see that Q.-Tuan Luong has posted an article about shooting in

national parks and on public lands. I live next to the Indiana Dunes

National Lakeshore and have my regular encounters with rangers who do

not understand that more than one camera or accessory does not

necessarily constitute a commercial endeavour! Read the article,

review the links and pay attention to the one published by the

National Park Service which covers the real rules of photographing in

national parks.

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Often the rangers and other employees think they are doing good, but

do not understand what the rules say. The intent seems to be to

regulate the big production types of photo shoots where there are

lots of crew, perhaps wandering into restricted areas and potentially

damaging the park whether intentionally or otherwise. This forum had

a lengthy discussion of an incident where damage may or may not have

occured last year. Maybe they have just encountered too

many 'figure' photographers using those areas and they believe they

are upholding the public morals.

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My advice is not to lie or be deceptive. Perhaps, print out the

rules and carry them in your bag-I do. As long as you are in public

areas where anyone is allowed to walk at reasonable times when the

areas are open to visitors, you have the right to photograph provided

you are not interfering with other park visitors. This is true even

if you are selling the images later. What they do not want is the

impression that such and such park or park employee is seemingly

endorsing a product.

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I would be pleased to hear other observations and discuss this

further.

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John Bailey

I have never had a problem using a view camera in Death Valley in 30

or more trips. I have had several other "conversations" with

official persons in other locations. They start off with feigned

nonchallance (sp?), then they strike up a conversation, then they

work in a question designed to find out if you are a "professional

photographer." This has happend many times, exactly the same

technique used, and I think it is trained. I'm not a professional, I

answer the question directly and without an attitude and they lose

interest in me. Comments like: "I like old wooden cameras" early on

help get them off the idea that fancy/weird equipment means you are

working on a commercial venture. My impression is that if you are

not on a commercial assignment per se, they don't care. If somebody

some day decides to buy one of your pictures, they don't care. At

least this is what I've heard from the ones who relax and talk about

the issue. I've never seen a BLM person or anyone else official at

Ryolite. Pity the area was not better protected over the years,

check out the way it looked for Edward Weston in California and the

West. Some of the buidings he photographed are rubble now. I don't

think the photographs do much damage, it's the people who don't

photograph they should worry about.

Hi All,

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Shooting in National Parks here in Oz poses some of the same

restrictions - albeit, usually, policed in a more relaxed fashion

than I see in this thread. What is really annoying, though, is that

local Municipal Councils will impose "shooting fees" for

photography undertaken on beaches such as Bondi, outdoor

attractions like the Darling Harbour precinct and the Sydney

Opera House forecourt.

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This has absolutely nothing to do with upholding moral values or

preserving the environment - it is a blatant and capricious

means of sharing in the spoils of Commercial endeavour. As an

example the Sydney Opera House Trust requires a full

declaration of the nature of the assignment and will then impose

what they consider to be an appropriate fee for the scale of the

shoot. Others just have a flat fee - $500.00 for Sydney beaches

or $ 1,800.00 for Darling Harbour.

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Where it gets really stupid is that most of the 'Professional'

photos taken in places like these are done on 35mm tranny or

digital. The shooters are invisible in a sea of tourists. But take

out a large format camera and there's a lot of explaining to do -

with mixed results.

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Surely, in most of our western democracies the law of "innocent

until proven guilty" should apply. If we explain our purpose in a

concise and civil manner we should be taken at face value.

Sadly, however, this is a fading memory with the introduction of

armed security personnel, often with the IQ of a fence post and

the culture and aesthetics of yoghurt, whose sole endeavour is

to flex their authority.

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Walter Glover

Walter, you hit it right on the head with "Sadly, however, this is a

fading memory with the introduction of armed security personnel,

often with the IQ of a fence post and the culture and aesthetics of

yoghurt, whose sole endeavour is to flex their authority." It's the

same attitude many of us have run into at airports, trying to get

hand inspection without having some idiot open the box of exposed

sheetfilm.

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I console myself with the realization that such people are not hired

for such low-paid positions because of their brains.

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Tony

Walter, that was a very interesting post. However, I spent the

better part of two days photographing the Sydney Opera House

(the world's most beautiful building IMHO) with a 4x5 monorail

and was never questioned. The only place I was stopped was in

the Royal Botanical Gardens. But this was three years ago, and

maybe things have changed.

Stewart,

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You can be in luck; as I said at the head of the post these

matters are policed in a somewhat relaxed fashion at times, but

the Botanical Gardens, Mrs Macquarie's Chair and Centennial

Park are all under the jurisdiction of the Dept. of Agriculture and

they are very keen on fiscal fertiliser.

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I hope you liked what you saw and captured, anyway.

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Cheers ... WG

Jim,

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Somewhere up the posts someone recommended printing out the National

Park Service regulations on photography. I carry copies of these

with me in the field. They clearly state that a license or permit is

not required for the kind of work you were doing. One thing to be

careful of is whether your location is national or state land.

Nevada has stricter regulations regarding photography on state parks

and sites and generally large format photographers would require a

permit (with a small fee) to be on location. The Nevada State Parks

website also provides regulations on photography.

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Good Luck,

Ditto New Mexico state land. More restrictive than BLM; you need a

permit. Often in really really open areas out west, including NM,

it's not always easy to know whether you're looking at private

(ranching), federal, Native American, or state. A good detailed

map/gazetteer is a partial answer; the County Assessor's Offices are

the real answer (in N.M. for sure), as are commercial title and

"abstract" offices, who generally answer phone inquiries cheerfully.

Private land is complex. You just have to get the owner or manager on

the phone and ask. BLM -- as explained above, as long as you're not

interfering w/ anyone else's use (and this includes ranchers who are

grazing such land pursuant to Taylor Grazing Act leases), do as you

like. Pueblos/Reservations -- You can pretty much forget it; the only

opening I know of is to write the Pueblo Governer and ask permission.

It will be denied. -jb

Well, you colonials certainly suffer for your art and I thought that

America was the land of the free? My advice is to pack everything up

and come over to England where apart from railway stations,

supermarkets!! and military installations, you can roam at will with

your large format cameras.

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Don't come via France though as these days you cannot even do street

photography without suffering a writ for invasion of privacy. H C-B

could not operate these days.