Modern Camera Prices

A couple of months ago in this forum, I made some rather disparaging remarks to Bob Salomon about what I thought was rather high prices for Linhof cameras. Last night, I was reading a book published about 1942 which showed the early Linhof as well as many other fine cameras of its day. At the time the book was published, the Linhof, without lens, was listed at $234.00. A Speed Graphic was about $200 with flash gun, and the Juwel B, a Saint Ansel favorite, was about $340. A Rolleiflex was $275.

The point of this is that given the inflation factor between 1942 and today, today's cameras are quite a bargain. Remember that in 1942 a new Ford or Chevy could be bought for about $900. Look at the prices of cars today.

In another section of the same book, a photographer was bragging that he was doing quite well selling pictures to boxers and wrestlers at the fantastic sum of $25 PER HUNDRED FOR 8X10 glossies.

As for me, I think I will stop bitching so much about camera prices and give thanks that I don't have to make 8x10s for twenty-five cents each.

Doug.

The price of Linhof Master Techs has actually come down by a factor

of about two over the last decade or two, if I remember correctly

from some old catalogues I recently saw. Bob can probably provide us

with the details. A bargain at any price, says I!

 

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Nathan

Let's assume that a new car costsaround $25,000. I think you'd be amazed by the number of photographers who would be happy to sell hundreds of 8x10

machine prints from the same negative at $6.95 which is what $0.25 in 1942 is in year 2000 dollars using that multiple.

Appreciate the info Doug but you should note that Linhof and

Rollei were, and are, made in Germany. That would mean that

one of those being sold as new in 1942 was probably not right

off the boat from the factory.

 

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Unless you were looking at a 1942 magazine from the Axis

powers.

I don't know. If I'm understanding the data correctly, the All Urban

Consumer CPI has increased a little under 11x since 1942 (from 15.7 to

168.7 1/42-1/2000). A Master Technika 2000 goes for $3695 from Badger

Graphic. That's almost a 16x increase over 1942. The comparison to

cars isn't really fair; there have been far more technical innovations

and improvements since 1942 in automobiles than in 4x5 cameras.

There was no Technika 2000 in 1942.

 

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The successor to the old Linhof Medezin (the model before the

III) would be the Master technika which is less then the 2000.

Also the one priced in 1942 would have included a

manufacturers warranty of some sort in the US and the grey

version from Badger does not.

 

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Properly imported Linhofs in the US include a 5 year warranty.

 

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In Bruce Barnbaum's case this meant that a 4 year old, heavily

used Master with a broken drop bed was repaired at NC

OK, what's the suggested retail of a Master Technika w/ 5 yr.

warranty?

The authorized dealer sets the actual selling price.

 

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There are 3 versions sold in the US. The black bodied (least

expensive), the chrome body (most expensive) and a chrome

body with minor marks on the chrome that make it less then the

normal chrome body.

 

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Any dealer will be able to quote selling prices to you.

Bob: The book I was referring to was Willard Morgan's "The Complete

Photographer-An Encylopedia of Photography" published in 1941-1942.

Since the U.S. didn't enter the war until December 1941, and given

the lag time in book publishing, the prices should be close for new

cameras. I have read in the past that Linhofs and Rolleiflexes were

selling as high as $500 during the later years of the war. Guess it

depended on how badly the photographer wanted the Linhof or Rollei.

Doug.

Here's a much more recent example of LF price increases. The Sinar F1

was $1850 two years ago at B&H. It's now $2311. That's a 25%

increase ($461) in two years.

"Here's a much more recent example of LF price increases. The

Sinar F1 was $1850 two years ago at B&H. It's now $2311.

That's a 25% increase ($461) in two years."

 

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Want a better example?

 

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Look in the B&H catalog (the big one, not the monthly one and

not the web page) and check the 1999 price for the Linhof

Kardan M 4x5 full featured monorail camera. It was, I believe,

$1995.00.

 

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Now check any dealer for the price of the Linhof Kardan M

camera which is the same camera as the E except renamed for

the Millennium.

 

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The current price is $1170.00!

 

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If you are a student in a photo school the price through your local

dealer is $895.00

Pegging prices to a specific formula such as a Consumer Price Index

only goes so far. Last year at this time I was buying gasoline for

$ 0.87.9 a gallon. At the same gas station it is now $ 1.56.9 a

gallon. Same refinery, same dealer.

While gas is more variable than photo gear, at least the higher

quality stuff such as Linhof, prices do vary depending on more than

just a seasonally adjusted inflation rate. Having used Technicas for

a long time, I think they are worth the price I pay, even when buying

used. They work well, do what they are designed to do and hold up

almost forever You can't ask for much more than that.

I compare them to the figures I saw a few years ago comparing

the "actual price" one pays for high quality versus cheap stuff. This

one was a Leica M6 compared to decent quality point and shoot

cameras. For the expected life of the Leica and lens in a direct life

expectancy comparison to the cheaper camera, the Leica was less

expensive over its projected life by around $500 or so.

You still get what you pay for.

Good point, Dan. Another thing which we don't take into consideration

is the inflation rate in Germany. I am sure that taking the inflation

rate of both countries into the picture, it would work out where the

price has not increased that much.

Incidentally, in an earlier posting in this thread, I said that I had

read that Linhofs and Rolleis were selling at $500 in the later years

of WWII. I meant that to mean that price was for USED cameras, but I

failed to say so.

Speaking of camera and lens prices, many photographers, me included,

tend to equate price with quality and desirability. I'll be willing

to bet that few of us would be rushing to buy a Lieca or Linhof or

Nikon if they were priced at $99 including carrying case. Look at the

many good low and medium priced cameras that aren't made anymore.

The old all-metal B and J press camera was as good as a Speed Graphic

and even had a revolving back, which the Graphic didn't have. It sold

for about a third of the price of a Graphic. Yet, everyone wanted the

Graphic.

Doug.

Well, everyone can decide for him or herself whether a Linhoff is

worth the price. That decision will depend on lots of factors, many

of which are personal. My point was that it is not really the case,

as the original post suggested, that the price of high-end 4x5

cameras (Linhoff in particular)has declined in real terms since

1942. That doesn't mean that to some people they won't be worth the

money.

All this Linhof talk makes me wonder about an issue I never fully

understood. Bob, tell me how Linhof, the Rolls Royse of cameras with

a reputation that exceeds all others could be in bankrupcy... or just

come out of bankrupcy? This is second hand information, so wait for

confirmation from Bob.... however, my question is this... with such a

huge reputable name.. high prices (which usualy represent greater

gross margins) compared to other makers today.. which is not

surprsing, Mercedes Benz will always be more than a Ford... what made

the company have such problems? And how long ago was this? It seems

with the products and prices they are advertising today, like the

Kardan you mention above, they should clearly be dominate and

profitable again... are they? could part of this occured from the

huge increase in LF makers from the 50's to say the 70's? I am

sure many of us would like to understand the story behind this...

"All this Linhof talk makes me wonder about an issue I never fully

understood. Bob, tell me how Linhof, the Rolls Royse of

cameras with a reputation that exceeds all others could be in

bankrupcy... or just come out of bankrupcy? "

 

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Why do you SPREAD RUMORS OR :LIES?

 

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If, as you say, it is unsubstantiated why not ask us before

publishing this drivel?

 

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Linhof is not in and never was in bankruptcy or liquidation.

Linhof's owners husband contracted a terminal illness and she

announced a couple of years ago that she wanted to sell the

company.

 

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The company was sold to another German slightly after

Photokina 1998.

 

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Yes there have been recent bankruptcies in the German photo

industry. These include Rollei, Minox, Schneider, Bewi, etc over

the past 20 odd years. But none of them included Linhof.

 

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If you think you have a hot news item please do the proper thing

and VERIFY YOUR FACTS PRIOR TO SPREADING TRASH!

My apologies Bob S, yes you are right, even though I heard this

from several sources, there is a lot of bad information out there,

and this was one of them... I should have not assumed this was true

before asking you... I did not spread this TRASH to anyone, I posted

and awaited your response. I certainly am not afraid to admit when I

am in error... and take my backlashing like a man... I'm sure you

would do the same....please accept my apology...

 

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How big is Linhoff as a compnay? Is their annual sales

figures quoted... is this public information? Employees, etc. I

assume you must have been to the plant in Germany before, right?

Just curious?

Bill you did spread this trash to everyone on this list. Take responsibility for your actions.

Not to enter into polemics or excuse anything, but I was told two years ago by my official Linhof

representative in Switzerland, that the Master 2000 wasn't made anymore. Until end of last year when I

was told it was again available. In the same time, I saw it advertised on some websites in the US! Search

for the error!

"Not to enter into polemics or excuse anything, but I was told two

years ago by my official Linhof representative in Switzerland, that

the Master 2000 wasn't made anymore. Until end of last year

when I was told it was again available. In the same time, I saw it

advertised on some websites in the US! Search for the error! "

 

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The 2000 was never discontinued, at least by the factory, but the

finder with the electronic rangefinder was discontinued after the

production of them was depleted.

 

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Perhaps that is what they were referring to?

Who would tell a potential customer that a pricey camera is not available if it weren't true?

Maybe the person was not well informed (which would be a shame for an official representant). Obviously

this was an error, but I'm just trying to demonstrate how rumors can start!

Paul, that sure makes sense! But since when does logic apply?

(However, it may get classified as TRASH... so beware of the next

post) So in the future, let us both be more careful and never

question those of superior knowledge again, fair enough?

My apologies! I might have thrown more oil on the fire. I'll try to be wiser next time. This forum is such a

nice place when it's cordial. Enough fight in the real life!

To come to the defense of our poster who thought Linhof had filed for

bankrputcy, I heard this from two separate LF dealers, one of whom

handled Linhof cameras. Their explanation was that it is nearly

impossible to downsize by getting rid of employees in Germany, so

this was done "as a formality" to get rid of some dead wood, get the

products more profitable, and wouldn't effect those looking for

Linhof cameras and products.

It was also discussed on some of the internet lists.

Far from spreading "TRASH", if this list isn't the place to post a

question like this, then what is? I appreciate Bob Solomon posting

here & have solicited his advice at times myself. But I believe Bob

over reacts on this one.

True or not, the story was making the rounds. As one who over-reacts

at times as well, I can understand Bob's reaction. He sells damn good

gear, and YES, I own Linhof and have for almost 25 years. Very good

gear. And, bankruptcy filing fact or fiction, nothing will change

that.

"To come to the defense of our poster who thought Linhof had

filed for bankrputcy, I heard this from two separate LF dealers,

one of whom handled Linhof cameras. Their explanation was

that it is nearly impossible to downsize by getting rid of

employees in Germany, so this was done "as a formality" to get

rid of some dead wood, get the products more profitable, and

wouldn't effect those looking for Linhof cameras and products. It

was also discussed on some of the internet lists. Far from

spreading "TRASH", if this list isn't the place to post a question

like this, then what is? I appreciate Bob Solomon posting here &

have solicited his advice at times myself. But I believe Bob over

reacts on this one. True or not, the story was making the rounds.

As one who over-reacts at times as well, I can understand Bob's

reaction. He sells damn good gear, and YES, I own Linhof and

have for almost 25 years. Very good gear. And, bankruptcy filing

fact or fiction, nothing will change that. "

 

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It is not a matter of over reacting it is such a stupid statement that

if anyone had checked the facts they would have discovered that

Linhof owned their real etate and the value of their land holdings

was so great that they could not have declared bankruptcy under

any conditions. In short their assets far exceeded their debts

making your version impossible.