Leica's Weird Bottom Loading

Francois, you're final question has been asked by me a couple of

times today. So far, no answers however!

As a fairly recent Leica convert, I have to say that I still despise

the film loading. And with the M7, it's even more difficult because

the canister doesn't slide out easily (it was easier on my M6TTL) --

unless you have really tiny fingers, it can take a lot of work and

patience to get the canister out. It's easier to leave the leader

slightly out when rewinding and use the leader to pull the canister

down, but then you run the risk of poking the shutter curtain.

Baloney Jack,

<p>

Kathy, in that pose, would look good taken with any camera. Except I

could't have got that shot. Would have been shaking too much!!!!

<p>

To answer the original question, I hated the loading enough to get

rid of the M6. I'm more interested in the pictures I get than the

process of fiddling with the camera. Leica M's are fun to fiddle

with, there's a lot of adjustments you can make, but when the

pressure was on and the opportunity of lot's of fast and furious

shooting presented itsself, I screwed up the film loading enough to

warrant firing the camera body.

<p>

I really like the DX recognition, the film identification window, the

autoloading and error code notification, the hinge back, of the Hexar

RF. When I misload with it, I immediately know it. Not after all

the guests have gone home.

Weird bottom loading is just part of its charms :-) So far I don't

have any problems with this loading mechanism.

Part of the charm of leicas M and S system are its

idiosyncrasities.Like the bottom load. Yep I don't really like it

either, and it is a pain when reloading in the field, but for me,

using a classic camera is like driving a classic car (no I don't

drive a classic car) - you do it because there is something about it

you love. A classic 1950's Jaguar say(or 'vette ir whatever)can not

compare to this year's Honda in terms of efficency or features. I

would not choose a classic car to commute to work, I would choose

the Honda, but for fun, I would choose the classic. Thats how I work

with my camera's. If I am going out to shoot lots of rolls of film I

will take my Nikon gear. If I am going out for a slow day of

careful photography I will choose the Leica. For me the leica system

and its loading is old fashioned, but who cares, it is part of the

experience.

How slow can you get loading a M3, seriously? There is nothing to

shoot while you are loading.

<i>What Jack means is: DON'T TOUCH THE HOLY LEICA, DON'T HAVE

COMMENTS ON THE HOLY LEICA.</i> <p>

<b>NOT!</b> Anybody that is a regular reader on this forum knows

that I do not sing this particular mantra -- in fact, I often do the

opposite! I also generally overlook individual idiosyncrasies in

favor of the final result...<p>

<i>...but for me, using a classic camera is like driving a classic

car (no I don't drive a classic car) - you do it because there is

something about it you love.</i> <p>

<b>BINGO!</b> And if it is something you love, you will make excuses

to use it often. And if you use it often, you will get comfortable

with it. And if you are comfortable with it, it becomes an extension

of you. And if it becomes an extension of you, <b><i>it</i></b> will

not get in the way of your art but rather become a conduit through

which your art is realized.

Cheers,

Here are my observations after using M6ttl for five months:

1. The loading system is at least as good as Nikon FM2, F3, and other

manual load cameras with swinging back doors.

2. The detachable bottom is a pain; even worse with the grip. I

suspect the motor M is not any easier to stash away.

3. The camera can be loaded as quickly as the above Nikon examples

provided the photographer is concentrated on the task. I have fewer

misloads with Leica than with the above manual cameras as well as F5,

and whith some autoloading point and shoot.

4. #3 is only true of photographer friendly conditions. I have never

shot protesters, battles, etc so I cannot imagine reloading the camera

while being stomped on or beaten by cops. It must be a rather

difficult.

5. When shooting weddings I on a couple of occasions found myself in

front of the altar during the processional with only few frames in my

EOS 3. Not a problem; it takes about 15 seconds or so to reload.

Leica M6 in the same circumstances? I would be so nervous that I

would probably screw up loading, and miss the event.

6. Once loaded Leica is very fast to handle, focusing is definitely

faster than any manual focus SLR, and the vewfinder is bright and

contrasty, better than any SLR with a 2.8 zoom. Advancing film is

fast (or slow) as any other manual advance camera.

7. The alleged marketing reason to keep bottom loading is the added

body rigidity. I would believe it if I did not have EOS 3 (two of

them). When EOS 3 came out about four years ago it took a ton of

flack for being so plastic. Well, plastic it is, but the back door

seats on the body like a rock. There is no flexing, wobbling, play;

it feels like it is welded to the body. So far for the superiority of

metal myth.

8. To sum it up: loading a Leica M is burdened by the need to stash

the bottom plate ( or winder),and a flimsy rewind crank that likes to

jump out my fingers. It can and will slow down the photographer. I

would rather prefer the bottom to be attached to the body; maybe hinge

it on the swinging door and or somewhere. But I am willing to put up

with it because I like everything else about the camera, and its

lenses, and do not use it for fast paced action. So I can live with

that, at least for now.

I never understood this complaint either. Loading my M6 is neither

slower nor more difficult than loading my FM2 or S2, in fact I think

it's easier - no slot in the take up spool, no sprocket teeth to

align, no advancing with the camera open.

<p>

As far as that other argument goes, let's try this one: If having the

lens alignment dot on the side of the lens is better than having it on

the back of the lens (where you can't see it), then why don't ALL 35mm

cameras have this? Answer - damned if I know! It IS better!

<p>

Joe

I have only two bits to add to this.

<p>

1. It would be nice if the bottom plate were hinged. The hinge could

be a third lug for camera strap attachment, ala the M5. But I've

learned to compensate by always hold the bottom plate between my

middle and ring fingers while loading.

<p>

2. Loading is not all that slow. See this earlier <a href=I have only

two bits to add to this.

<p>

1. It would be nice if the bottom plate were hinged. The hinge could

be a third lug for camera strap attachment, ala the M5. But I've

learned to compensate by always hold the bottom plate between my

middle and ring fingers while loading.

<p>

2. Loading is not all that slow. See this earlier

<a href=http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?

msg_id=005Ofh>posting</a>

<p>

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005Ofh

What an awful mess! Sorry, folks :-(

<p>

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005Ofh

What do I think about the question? More senseless verbiage

about something that works, works well, and doesn't really make

a darn bit of difference.

<p>

I've always liked the Leica M4 and later film loading mechanism.

I find it faster and more secure than the now more traditional flip

open back, and I suspect it might hold the film flatter although

that would be very difficult to prove one way or the other.

<p>

All in all, it doesn't make any difference.

<p>

Godfrey

It has not been a problem. Then, after 42 y and the III series, you

adapt.

<p>

Still, I wouldn't want to do it on a hang glider. ;<)

<p>

Art

I've never had a problem with the bottom loading, either in terms

of speed or misloads. Perhaps some people don't like the

bottom loading because they are doing it wrong. I remember

someone posting here once that he used a

<b><i>paperclip</i></b> when loading his M6. Sheesh. I've seen

people spend minutes and minutes loading their cameras,

being very anal -- when in theory it should take 30 sec or less.

<p>

Andrew Nemeth gives a very good <a

href="http://www.nemeng.com/leica/000b.shtml">primer on how

to quickly and properly load the M cameras</a> on his website. I

think if you do any more than what he outlines, then you're

spending too much time on it.

I should add to Andrew's method, that I don't even think it's even

necessary to open the back door (that also helps keep crap from

getting on the shutter curtain).

François, I didn't mean touching the shutter with your fingers, but with the curled film leader. Can

you imagine the damage done to a hypothetical CLOTH shutter in a mechanical SLR, for

example, if you accidentally let go of the leader while trying to thread it, and it goes scratching the

shutter, like it does every time? Plus, you have to retrieve it with your fingers, because it always

sits right there, on top of the shutter. Every time. Multiply this by the number of times it actually

happens. It makes me shudder just to think of it. With the M, as soon as the leader is slipped

down in place it will remain there, even if you let go of it. What I think is that the M bottom loading

is even better still just in that respect. Safe, safe, safe. As for speed of loading, who in his right

mind would use a M, if they needed such speed that they can't stand 10 more seconds? If I did,

I'd use an automatic SLR.

In the 10 years I've been using Leica M cameras, I've adapted to the

bottom loading, and I appreciate the obvious benefit of rigidity and

durability. As Mani points out, though, a hinge would be cool.

I find the Ms bottom loading - ONCE I got used to it and practiced at

it - to be easier, and faster, than anything except full motorized

(F100, Contax G, Hexar) loading.

<p>

I just did a self-test recently, because the LUGgers were also debating

M loading. 10 full cycles: unload, reload, wind to first frame, rewind,

repeat. It took 4 minutes - or 24 seconds per roll average. No

misloads.

<p>

When I first got the Ms I had a fair number of misloads, and tried all

kinds of mystical fixes: bending over the film tip to catch the prongs

better; trimming 'old-style' long leaders,;fiddling with the film to

make sure it was over the sprocket holes; winding with the back open to

make sure it got started right. Result: more misloads.

<p>

Then I read the loading notes at <a href="http://nemeng.com/leica/">

http://nemeng.com/leica/</a>. DON'T fiddle with the film. DON'T pull

the leader out until the film is mostly already in the camera. Just

stick it in like the bottom plate diagram shows. DON'T open the back.

Just wind.

<p>

At this point I'm up to well more than 300 rolls loaded since my last

misload (I quit counting months ago).

<p>

If your're a controlling, Type-A personality (as I was) who is bound

and determined that YOU WILL make the Leica load right, by force-

feeding it - it will bite you!

<p>

If you shut up and let the fastload system work the way it was designed

- it will work as designed.

For me it is the way it is. I don't feel the item is worth the so

many words written / spoken about it.

<p>

On the other hand, yes, loading my FM2-n is a lot easier . . . so

what ?

<p>

Regards, Drew

Olivier....the faster and safer way to load any of the old manual

cameras...FM, FE, etc...is to place the film leader in the slot

first, slide the film across the shutter where it will fall perfectly

into the sprocket teeth 98 times out of 100, and then place the film

cannister in its slot. There is no chance of touching the shutter

because the film is now over it.

<p>

With a little practice it can be done with one hand in about 10

seconds.

<p>

Just a suggestion.

François,

<p>

Me a Leica fundamentalist? Hmmm could be. I do know that lots of other RF camera's have the more conventional method of loading film.

<p>

What I'd hate to see is Leica making an M camera with a side hinged door. I think that's wishfull thinking on my part. IMO Leica departed the 'right path' by adding 2mm of topcover height to the M6TTL and in doing so paved the way for the M7 and future models. The fact that Leica no longer makes an M camera within the classic M body measurements is sad. Similar story about the R8, IMO they shouldn't have dumped the R4/5/6/7 body design in favour of a design that looks to have been drawn in 1970 as a vision of the camera in the year 2000. Some people call that progress, I call it bad taste.

<p>

I don't say the M6TTL, M7 and R8 are lousy products, I just don't like their designs.

What is wrong with the Leica M film loading system?<br>

After reading other postings and my very limited experience, the

Leica M film loading can be problematic, may be above average

comparing to other manual film loading system like Nikon F3, if you

are not following some rules correctly.<br>

What is the correct way to load film into a Leica M? The film

loading method in the Leica manual and Mr. Nemeth's seem to be the

same. What is the potential problem is that the angle of the film

leader may be somehow to be jammed in the film path because the film

travels in a screwed way. My suggestion is that, before you close

the film pressure plate and wind, please make sure the film is

placed in a straight way . Nothing hurt right? Admittedly I am

more controlling of the film loading. I do not see any thing wrong

with that since I am getting 100% success rate of my film loading. I

even wind it twice and make sure the film leader angle is past thru

the film pressure plate and film hole is aligned in the teeth

(probably not important since the main driving force is from take-up

spool axis and just served as a check point).

The easiest loading camera in the world was Kodak's INSTAMATIC...

How long did 126 film last? Get over it!

My my ! I was curious to hear what you folks had to say, and I

have to add that I am quite entertained by the passionate

argument this simple question stirs up. Ah Leica.

<p>

Thanks for your input, everyone- good thoughts and it's

interesting to me to see what you all think about this.