This is an expensive passion

Thanks, Jack! But your choice was taken with a Canon 55mm/f1.2

FL-mount lens on an F1. I try to keep my gratuitous photo posting at

least mildly relevant. . .

Mike,

<p>

could you show the bankteller again?

<p>

Thanks!

Sparkie,

<p>

What you seem to be missing is proper rationalization skills:

<p>

"This lens can only appreciate in value"

<p>

"For everything else, there's Master Charge."

<p>

"I need this to make sure my creativity won''t be limited by mediocre

gear."

<p>

"It's a good investment--better than the stock market."

<p>

"I work hard, I deserve it."

<p>

"So who are they making Leicas for in the first place, if not for

people like me who appreciate it."

<p>

"I should strike while the iron is hot, and get this used item before

someone else grabs it. Otherwise I'll kick myself later."

<p>

Review this list every night and before walking into the camera store.

Don't forget that many of us have been doing this for 30 or 40

years...or more! After you have spent maybe years acquiring "critical

mass" it's not so expensive as you might think to sell-and-buy your

way into other equipment. Sort of like paying off your first house,

and trading your way into other houses after that. It's not that

we're all so filthy rich, it's more often that we have simply

invested many, many years getting to this point. Patience!

Sparkie:

<p>

Great philosophical question. Should be in the Phiilosophy of

photography forum as well.

<p>

I happen to be lucky enough to have a job that "forces" me to travel

a lot, so that answers one question.

<p>

I am also lucky enough with that job to have some discretionary

income, totally disproportionate to my discretion, as alluded to

above.

<p>

BUT, the main thing is I/we have an eye for a bargains, such as the

Zorki 4K with the 50mm F2 Industar (AKA Zeiss Sonnar) for a total of

£25 a few years ago in a quaint little camera shop in Lincoln

England, as well as doing favours, such as referring cutomers to

camera dealers who then give me price breaks on user Leica stuff and

LF cameras.

Somewhere Phil Greenspun documents Bill Gates' family carrer as

receiving several mllion in inheritance just as the legit finances

ran out. There are a few of those kind, as well as guys who hustle

stocks, wear red suspenders and drive Porsche Boxters here in

Singapore which sets one back a cool Million bucks.

<p>

I venture to say there are enough rock stars, sports millionaires and

Queens of England, not to mention oil sheiks and sons of Indonesian

presidents, to buy commemorative Leicas to keep the company alive and

the used market flowing with toys they have grown tired of.

One of the above correspondents mentioned in a private note the theft

the other day of a big load of Leica stuff that will no doubt find

its way into the "legit" world appropriately laundereed for a

favourable price and someone will gleefully rejoice in a "new" M6 for

$500.

<p>

The world of photography is replete with addicts, (and it is truly an

addiction -recursive, self-destructive, mood-altering behavior) who

sacrificed a "normal" life for their passion: O. Winston Link comes

to mind.

<p>

Seriousy, it is priorities. My friends and co workers have "nice"

houses in "nice" suburbs with $20 000 dining room suites and a Lexus

SUV for the wife to waddle off to do her chores in, and buy $1000

suits or business casual outfits, but many of us are minimalists in

our lifestyles to support Leicas and in my case, home-made or

purchased-in-China-made-in-China, hi-end sound systems.

<p>

Believe it out not, I also have a sort of squirrel-derived saving

system that from time to time allows purchases of things that would

not be possible out of regular cash flow. And also in my case, I

believe in living my retirement now, putting away only minimal

amounts for "The Retirment" and grabbing the day. When the time comes

that the fun is over, I will "exeunt, stage left" knowing that I had

fun and didn't burden my descendents, nor spoil them with enough

money for them to buy Leicas.

<p>

Not that there is any comparison AT ALL, but Mozart gambled

obsessively to the extent that his health suffered, he died broke

and prematurely at 36, and is buried in an unknown mass grave. BUT

the universe would be so much poorer if he had lived a "straight"

life as a dutiful court composer to the Archbishop of Salzburg.

<p>

A lot of rambling, but you pushed the button and that's what came out.

<p>

Cheers

The expense is bearable over ten or twenty years, though it really

does seem inordinate when you are 20 or 30 years old and just

starting out in your earning career. Remember, people go ski, go for

vacations, restore sports cars etc. etc. all on regular salaries and

regular jobs. A couple of M bodies and 3-4 lenses costs but a

fraction of the cost of that kind of free-spending lifestyle in the

long run.

<p>

The real answer? Save up for what you want, once you are sure you

want it. Trust me, compared to most hobbies/lifestyles/sports the

long run cost of Leica equipment is not that great. $10,000 of Leica

equipment (2 bodies plus 5-6 lenses) or what you would basically

acquire and use in 20 years, is a monthly cost of $40 over that time.

People spend more than that on Cable TV, never mind smoking.

<p>

But if you want it NOW, then it certainly seems very expensive :-)

Sparkie:

<p>

I agree with the bulk of the postings to date. I have owned Leica's

for 30 years and still have all of that equipment. I have added new

and used recently as buys show up. I sent a couple of 40 year old

lenses in for cleaning recently, but most of my expenses are for film

and processing. I have a family and we live modestly, but everything

is paid for. What we save on interest pays for some of my habits.

We rarely eat out, but we read a lot. Determine your priorities,

then put your money in that direction. A car payment is $300+ per

month and part of that is interest that could be spent on film,

travel or equipment. Cheer up, the cameras last a long time, but

money doesn't.

<p>

--MJ

I just don't spend money on other stuff like a nice car or Italian

suits etc. Also get the best of the best and use it for 30 years.

Amortized it comes out to be cheaper than a Lubitel if you use it

twice and throw it away.

We may all be dead in ten years from comets striking the earth or anthrax or boredom. So, take a gamble with AMEX or VISA and stock up on the stuff

you really want. I can think of nothing worse than being in some stinkin job for 20 or 30 years while you put your NEED for good Leica equipment on

hold. Hew to some strange savings plan only to die from a stroke the day before you were ready to plunk down the cash for a Solm's product. As the

Buddha and the Jedi Knights both said, "live in the moment" and I would add, "with an M6 and a bucket of lenses".

<p>

Do it now.

<p>

Kirk

How do you afford Leica? I'm in debt up to my eye's with my new

m6ttl and 35mm summicron. Its been worth it. I was a

commercial photographer that stop taking pictures after work

because it became my job instead of the fun. I use to have fun

when I went to photo school and the Leica and that one lens is

making me think about photos again. Does anyone want to buy

my F-100 and 20mm AF & 24-85 mm AF / Mamiya M7

150mm&65mm my VISA will love you.

Buy only what you need, you can't go wrong. If you don't have the

money consider your debt a mortgage and pay it off gradually.

<p>

Leica use and ownership becomes a way of life, it's a necessary tool.

<p>

Some time ago during a trip to Europe, I asked my Dad (then 90 years

old) if I could borrow his 35 mm: sure he said, here you are. And he

handed me a 1.4/35 Asph! Brand new, just got (bought) it for his

birthday. Now he is shoppng for a new 1.4/50, for his 94th birthday.

<p>

So what I mean is that you can enjoy Leica stuff for years on end-at

least 70 years in my Dad's case. He started out with a simple used

one lens Leica unit years ago, loved to use it, gave me a used M2 for

my 18th birthday which is 40 years ago, and I know that I am hooked

for life. Great, I am always anxious to go out and get the shots.

So what do you do if you like classic cars and classic watches as well

as classic cameras and travel? Dangerous! Help! But I really think the

greatest waste of money is newer and newer technology which is not

necessarily any better at all. How much did your computer cost

compared with your camera? How long will each one last?

I'm glad to read these responses. When I first started peeking in here, I

assumed everyone was a wealthy, established MD or dentist, in the prime of

their life, their mortgages almost paid up, vacation home, the big sedan, the

whole works. Like some of those authors in the LHSA newsletter sound:

[authoritative Oxbridge accent, classical music in the background] "Here's an

analogy. For me, taking the little known 1978 (11911) 3rd version Canadian

Panda Military edition of the Arculux 52.5mm/f2.3 lens for a day of shooting is

just like jumping into my 1955 Porsche roadster for a spin along the Riveria

before lunch." ;-)

<p>

But I guess since I invested into it, about 3 years out of grad school, heck, it

can't really be so out of the ordinary.

<p>

As everyone has been saying, it's where's your priorities is. I haven't bought

a new piece of equipment since buying a P&S a few years ago- everything

else has been used. I hate Big Shopping, don't own a TV, have my work

provide my computer + web access, and like cheap thrills (hiking, biking,

bopping around town) and cheap eats- easy in Berkeley or Chinatown. I had

a friend also out of grad school (PhD in CS) living in San Francisco (just before

and during the dotcom boom), paying something like $1500 for his one

bedroom in a house shared w/someone else, when you can get decent digs

for about a third of that. That's where his priorities are, and, PhD or not, I

don't think he saved much. Or my cousin, just recently out of college- his

parents bought him a $40K BMW, which does exactly what my POS does:

gets me from point A to point B. These Hong Kong-ified relatives all look at

me funny and wonder why I don't dress better or wear a fancy watch. They

see my Leica, they ask me how much it was, and then they understand.

<p>

But, IMNSHO, I would keep the credit cards out of the equation.

<p>

How funny- a thread on what tradeoffs people make in order to own

<i>a camera.

</i>What better way to see how

<i>amateur

</i>is related to

<i>amare, to love.

</i>

"So what do you do if you like classic cars and classic watches as

well as classic cameras and travel? Dangerous! Help! "

<p>

1. No help necessary if you are rich.

<p>

2. If you are not rich, try a) becoming a doctor in the USA or b)

becoming a lawyer in same or c) becoming an investment banker

anywhere.

<p>

Based on observing friends, c) seems the easiest to get to,

especially if you have the gift of the gab.

<p>

The catch? All three routes to sure money will leave you with no time

to use that Leica.

<p>

O, cruel life in the Western world!

<p>

One has to endure the pain of choosing to either make money or to

have fun...

<p>

[Lest I set off a firestorm, all advice offered tongue-in-cheek]

Sparkie, you are not alone !

<p>

Most posters here have slowly put together their systems, upgrading

and broadening scope depending on professional successes accumulated

outside of the photo world. A lot of them trade 2nd hand most of the

time, and 2nd hand Leica does not loose value, on the contrary.

<p>

But some here visibly enjoy illimited funds. One of our friends on

this list in particular presents himself as an amateur, and claims

owning full Leica R system(s) (with almost ALL the top end

unaffordale exotic pieces and full redundancies in bodies); full

leica M system(s) (with almost ALL the top end unaffordable exotic

pieces and full redundancies in bodies); extensive Nikon AF system

with top end lenses and bodies (F5 and C°); 6x9 Horsemann;

hasselblad; rolleiflex. A whole series of pro Metz flashguns. And

that is only what I remember. I'm not sure this equipment helps him

to take any pictures (i believe he does not actually have the time to

take pictures), but it sure enables him to "contribute" to every

single thread refering to anything Leica (and beyond) with so-called

first hand knowledge (sometimes really "deep" and technically

sophisticated posts). I let you calculate the intensity of the

investment, knowing that most Leica lenses he refers to have started

to be produced less than 4 years ago...

<p>

Such "contributors" appear here and there periodically. I remember a

couple of years ago a guy who squatted newsgroups in a very similar

fashion. I calculated that his then current hardware investment,

based on what he proclaimed owning and using, was nearing the half

million bucks... My bet is that he was nothing more than a compulsive

poster, cutting and pasting under the first person guise pseudo-

knowledge gathered through readership of the various photo media and

on-line communities. Anyway, his nickname vanished from the radar

screen.

<p>

So do not worry about all this; learn to decypher and to recognise

real experience from fraud.

<p>

Personally, I afford my basic Leica setup, films and processing by

eating less food (meat twice a week), buying less clothes (1 suit and

2 pairs of shoes in the last 3 years), travelling less far and using

tent and sleeping bag most of the time. And I do earn a very

reasonable salary by continental Europe standards.

At least with Leicas, once you've acquired what you need, the only

continuing cost items are film and processing. (Yes, I know lots of

people keep spending on gear but they don't really need to). Many

other hobbies entail considerable ongoing costs.

<p>

Leica acquisition costs can be quite reasonable, as others have said,

if you are happy with used gear. At least you can feel some comfort

in the fact that Leica products give service and are still repairable

for decades. R lenses in paricular are a lot cheaper used than new,

especially those designs that have been superseded, the 180/3.4 APO-

Telyt-R being a good example. If you look at postings to Leica

mailing lists, as well as this Forum, you'll see many threads

discussing old cameras and lenses, simply because many members are

not able to afford the latest products, much as they would like to.

How do I afford it? Now that I've got a wife and kids, I sold all the

Nikon stuff I collected (and used) over 30 years. That has allowed

me the TTL and two new lenses. All of the perfection and diversity I

had had over those 30 years I can now get all in one day.

This question was a great one, the answers are wonderful, hope for

some more ...

<p>

But I would like to see more photos of MIKE DIXON!

<p>

Those where the pics I wanted to take when I was much younger. But I

could not because they didn´t let me or I didn´t dare to get close

enough.

<p>

All the hunt after new gear is partially a substitute for getting

close to those beautiful motifs, isn´t it?

<p>

Best wishes

I always the rule of thumb went like this: "If you don't spend a

whole lot more money on film than equipment, there's no way you can

justify owning that stuff."

<p>

The question then becomes "how cay you afford all the film you burn?"

For me the answer is that it gets subtracted off the lump I have

before dividing to figure out how long I'll be able to travel for.

<p>

Of course digital will change all this...

I have read every single response and I have gone through quite a lot

of emotions. I have laughed, chuckled and been humbled by your

appropriate, realistic, worldly and philosophical postings. In

combination, it has touched on some of the real key points that made me

post this in the first place. From Richard Ilomaki's 'The Retirement' -

of how you plan out your financial strategy for the 'Golden years' as

well as having your Leica cake now (or should I say slices of the Leica

cake) at the same time; while also travelling now and then, drinking

good wine, eating good food and having a quality lifestyle. To Bob

Fleischman's rationalization skills which made me laugh no end, but the

one on his list that pressed my rationalisation button was: "I work

hard, I deserve it." Through to Mike Dixon's ever incisive choice of

photos that make you wish YOU were behind HIS camera while he was

taking photos of that *ahem* fine specimen, and the reason you bought

the Leica in the first place: to take great images.

<p>

I myself am a graphic designer and I earn an okay income when there's

projects going. I don't drive a car, I have a mortgage but I don't live

in my flat, I rent it out-which almost covers the interest and capital.

I have all the clothes I really need, don't smoke, don't go night

clubbing or drinking lots of alcohol. But I do love eating well, the

odd good bottle of wine, travelling, taking photos (still learning) and

grabbing a movie now and then. So it all boils down to priorities like

alot of you have said. I'm 32 now and have an M6ttl with a 90'cron AA

and 35'cron A, and both the Minilux and Minilux Zoom. I am about 2

years into the Leica bug so I'm a junior compared to the wealth of

knowledge and experience in this forum. I don't intend on buying any

more equipment other than maybe a 0.58 for my 35 cron and that will

round out my kit. 2 bodies, 2 lenses. No equipment redundancy.

<p>

Its comforting to know that many of you here are 'real' people with

real jobs etc..but with the same passion. It's great company to be in.

I am always impressed by the patience, politeness and passing of

knowledge in this forum to the less experienced such as myself. And am

very thankful indeed.

Finally as Kirk Tuck said, which deep down is what I am believing in

more and more: live in the moment. Buy what will make you happy. Life

is short, and nothing struck me more than 4 years ago when I was in

Egypt. I was at the Saqqara pyramid (about a 3 hour camel ride from the

Giza pyramids). It is the oldest pyramid in Egypt. Seven thousand years

old and still standing. I compared that to our life expectancy on this

planet and it dawned on me I was but a tiny little speckle of sand, a

blink in the passing of time. So live in the moment. Nothing brings me

more joy and satisfaction then to capture a image I will treasure for

years to come. I hope I will be shooting with my Leica for many

years like Hans Berkhout's father did. I had better start spending

before I get a wife and kids. Hehe!

sparkie, there's little I can add to this thread that hasn't already

been mentioned. My beginnings with Leica reflect the stories

everyone else had told. My first Leica was an NOS Leicaflex SL with

a new 400mm f/6.8 Telyt, purchased when I was 27 and making about

$6/hr. I had an old car, no sound system or other possesions, living

in a shabby tent cabin in Alaska. It's all a matter of priorities.

It's definitely a matter of priorities. Even though the majority of

what I shoot is b&w, and I do all my own b&w processing and printing,

my film and processing budget is usually much greater than my food and

(non-photographic) entertainment budgets combined. Shoot first,

scavenge for food later. . .

<p>

And as thanks to those other afficionados of beatiful women, here's

the URL to a listing of many of my photos which include tech data so

you can see which were shot with Leicas (over half):

<p>

http://www.photocritique.net/g/phtg?MIKE+DIXON

I knew a guy years ago who smoked three packs of unfiltered butts a

day, sopped up at least $20 worth of shellac thinner in the local bar

every night--and had a $70 a week pot habit on top of all of that.

And he whined to me once that he couldn't afford a camera.<p>It's all

a question of priorities, I suppose.

Don't smoke cigarettes or weed for the rest of your life and that

money can be saved up for a Leica R or M camera. Leica isn't

expensive unless collectors screw up the prices again again...

<p>

Alfie