rodeo_joe1 Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 In this case it's a description of inversion and twisting at the same time. And still totally unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q.g._de_bakker Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 And still totally unnecessary. Unless you have a tank that can't be inversed without spilling. Sliding the tank, back and forth, or in a figure of eight, is an old method. One that works. Though air bubbling through the liquid works (and creates air bubbles that may stick to the film, so a few firm taps after inversion are advisable), it is not the only correct or only effective way to agitate. What is needed is to create a flow in the liquid that washes away used up developer and byproducts from the film and streams fresh developer to the film. Almost any uneven motion of the tank will do that. Want even less of the wrist calisthenics? Stop inversion agitation, and start sliding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin McAmera Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 I bought a Post Office coat like that from a government surplus shop when I was a student. I doubt I looked that good in it though, and I got sick of being asked directions to places. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted April 29, 2022 Author Share Posted April 29, 2022 I have no idea where this daft figure-of-eight affectation has come from - although I suspect it's from ill-informed Newby YouTubers. Never used such a technique in over 50 years of streak-free developing, and see absolutely no purpose in it. It wasn't even a 'thing' on anyone's radar until a few years ago. Let me repeat... for the Nth time. IT'S THE AIRSPACE BUBBLING THROUGH THE TANK DURING INVERSION THAT DOES THE WORK OF AGITATION. Not some esoteric Yogic wrist exercise! Just turn the tank swiftly upside down; recite to yourself the phrase "bubble bubble" (or count to two, it's optional) then right the tank again swiftly and tap the tank on the bench. Do that a couple of times every agitation cycle. No need for wrist calisthenics. And BTW, a pre soak is unnecessary and might well be contributing to the streaking. Developed over 50 years ago using the simple non figure of 8 method described above. [ATTACH=full]1425088[/ATTACH] I like the portrait a lot :-) Thanks for hanging in there and your concern! I have adopted your method and thought it got rid of the problem but the streaks came back with a vengeance. It is incomprehensible I have tried changing all variables but still get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_gardner4 Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 Ask a friend to dev your film in their tanks, using their chemicals, while you watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 Water, or any other low-viscosity fluid, has inertia. Not only that but it's 'shape shifting' and tends to stay still in space even though its container is moving around it. So slopping the tank from side to side, or rotating the tank around the developer, definitely isn't a good way to agitate. The slopping from side-to-side method especially, since it can cause standing waves that agitate some areas and not others. You've only got to look at how poor a job of agitation those old 'swizzle stick' tanks do, to realise that a unidirectional rotary motion isn't a good idea. Also, try to invert a tank without rotating it. It's nearly impossible. Just tip any cylindrical container upside down and observe which side your fingers stay on. If it's the right when you start the inversion, they'll be on the left when the thing is fully inverted. Any liquid inside will try to stay upright and non-rotated, so will have a swirling action imparted anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted April 29, 2022 Author Share Posted April 29, 2022 Ask a friend to dev your film in their tanks, using their chemicals, while you watch. I sort of did that already. Gave some films to develop to a pro lab that came out with no issue. They are from the same trip than the ones that showed the problem initially. They all have streaks except for the one develop in the pro lab with the same developer as me (HC110). And the guy was kind enough to take the time to show me how he processes his films. His inversion rotation-method was the same as mine. I did not see him actually develop the films though and that might be difficult to obtain... As for friends I don't have any proficient in theses matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted April 29, 2022 Author Share Posted April 29, 2022 Strangely enough all the still lives I shoot in doors are streak free probably because they are against a white or black background and the streaks only really show in the skies/snow or large smooth zones vi-vii. Well it's my guess but I don't know left from right anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 Vania, are you still using that cr*ppy plastic Paterson tank? There was a weird issue came to light (sorry for pun) several years ago, where the dye used in making some plastic developing tanks wasn't perfectly opaque, and allowed some deep red and IR to penetrate to the film; causing random fogging patterns. A very long shot, but a possibility. In any case, a change to a stainless tank and reel definitely wouldn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted May 2, 2022 Author Share Posted May 2, 2022 Vania, are you still using that cr*ppy plastic Paterson tank? There was a weird issue came to light (sorry for pun) several years ago, where the dye used in making some plastic developing tanks wasn't perfectly opaque, and allowed some deep red and IR to penetrate to the film; causing random fogging patterns. A very long shot, but a possibility. In any case, a change to a stainless tank and reel definitely wouldn't hurt. Using stainless steel too. I have different tanks with hewes reels. There's no difference with the paterson regarding the current problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted May 16, 2022 Author Share Posted May 16, 2022 For futur reference to those who might find it interesting, here is a copy of an email to Ilford which sums up all my testing. In the end I just cannot develop with HC110/Ilfotech HC anymore : I also wanted to let you know the result of my extensive testing. To cut to the point I managed to isolated the cause and I am about 99% sure the steaks are caused by the developer as testing with ID11 are streak free. But of course things are a little more complicated. The developers that cause this are HC110 and Ilfotec HC. I have tried 2 bottles of Kodak one and 1 bottle of Ilford and all gave the same streaks, rolls after rolls, with more or less intensity depending on the agitation pattern. Usually the more agitation with just enough developer to cover the reel(s) the less streaking. A 1 minute initial agitation have a strong positive impact. Pre-wetting might provide some improvement but it did not have a clearly noticeable effect. I have not tried another type of liquid developer yet. I have tried every possible agitation method except continuous and always get some form of streaks. I have used many different tanks and reels as well (Paterson and metal with hewes reels). The puzzling thing is that I gave 2 rolls to a lab that uses HC110 1+47 and they came out normal. I do mix my developer well, at 20°C and usually do a large batch at 1+31 because it last for so long. I have tried different dilutions as well with no effect. My stop bath is a Tetenal acetic acid diluted to 2%. I am thinking about using just water to see if it makes a difference… Fixer is Hypam 1+4. I hope maybe you can make some sense out of this. Please let me know if you do ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted May 17, 2022 Share Posted May 17, 2022 I could see insufficient mixing of HC-110 'syrup' causing streaks, but not other and less concentrated liquid developers. All I can suggest is to get a motorised magnetic stirrer to ensure thorough mixing of the dilution before it gets poured into the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_oneill2 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Hopefully you've got this sorted out, but if not, one thing you could try is stand development. If you still have the problem, it's not an agitation issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vania_plemiannikov Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 Hopefully you've got this sorted out, but if not, one thing you could try is stand development. If you still have the problem, it's not an agitation issue. Interesting, I always thought stand development was one of the worst cause of streaking and other sort of development artifacts... I could try that. I really thought changing developer was the key but no. It's not solved yet although it's acceptable as long as there is no wide empty space like sky or snow. I don't see the issue on portrait or studio work but landscape is another story. Slightly better with Jobo constant hand agitation on roller base. Next test will be to add some wetting agent either to the developer or the pre-wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen_h Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Interesting, I always thought stand development was one of the worst cause of streaking and other sort of development artifacts... I could try that. I really thought changing developer was the key but no. It's not solved yet although it's acceptable as long as there is no wide empty space like sky or snow. I don't see the issue on portrait or studio work but landscape is another story. Slightly better with Jobo constant hand agitation on roller base. Next test will be to add some wetting agent either to the developer or the pre-wet. I haven't tried stand, but I have used lots of Diafine, which is also compensating developer. For Diafine, you agitate every minute, and not more than that. Too much gives bad results. As well as I know, stand develops slow enough that there isn't bromide streaking. -- glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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