Approaching Private Property Owners

I've been interested in the "New Topographics" style of photography, a fan of Steven Shore and others, so I checked out Kiro's website. I think you might enjoy his photographs.

 

Projects - Kier Selinsky

Thanks for the heads up. Definitely worth browsing his site.

Reading @Ed_Ingold's response reminded me that peoples' reactions to 'strangers' may have a lot to do with the local social culture and how 'strangers' are immediately perceived. In Wales, where I grew up and still regularly visit, people are generally very welcoming to 'visitors', based on a combination of curiosity and hospitality towards 'strangers'. Ireland too is well known for the same characteristics. A Dutch friend's wife is Irish and they regularly visit her home village in southern Ireland. He was amazed that local residents don't bother to lock their doors, even at night. They had no reason to suspect that anyone would come in and steal anything and they wanted their neighbors to be able to just walk in at any time of day or night should the need arise.

 

I've found the same 'welcome' on my numerous trips (many years ago) to the US too. Once people detected a 'British accent', they became curious and very hospitable. I've found the same in European countries, for example, Greece where people are generally sympathetic towards Brits, given their history in WWII. In remote villages, drinks suddenly appeared from nowhere, bought by locals who were proud that 'Brits' had visited their village. Of course, there are also canny Greek women who enthusiastically invite visitors to 'come and see the view!' from their property and afterward offer hand-made items for sale:).

 

I assume the 'local social culture' in the US varies considerably. But perhaps starting off with 'Hey, I'm from out of town and was just passing..." might be a way of breaking the ice.

 

Two thoughts occur to me. One is that you phone in advance explaining who you are and why you want to photograph parts of the property and/or take photos from the property ( and what you intend to do withe photos)/

 

AA second thought that occurs to me is 'referrals'. Rather than turning up unexpectedly on the doorstep, you might want to consider an ''indirect approach' This depends of course on how important the 'shots' are that you want to take and how much time and effort you want to invest in these.

 

One 'indirect approach might be that a local bar/restaurant owner or neighbor would phone ahead to ask whether you might visit the property and why. The 2 advantages I imagine from this 'indirect approach' are:

1. You have more time to spend with an indirect contact person (bar/restaurant/neighbor) to establish your credibility than 'on the doorstep'

2. Your referral is made by a 'local'

 

My only experience with this kind of 'indirect approach'' is in getting advice. Through my voluntary work, I have good personal contacts with a couple of professional photographers/self-publishers and exhibition curators. So if I hear from amateur photographers that they want to publish a photography book or participate in an exhibition but are not sure how to go about it, I sometimes offer to bring them in contact with my contacts who can possibly give them some advice based on their experience. In general, the 'indirect approach is a typical benefit of 'networking'. But again the 'independent approach' takes more time and effort than just 'turning up on the doorstep'. So again, the investment you make in time and effort is dependent on how important the shots are to you. And on how high the risk of failure is in 'turning up at the doorstep'

Maybe he should practice a British accent? ;)

"Reading @Ed_Ingold's response reminded me that peoples' reactions to 'strangers' may have a lot to do with the local social culture and how 'strangers' are immediately perceived. In Wales, where I grew up and still regularly visit, people are generally very welcoming to 'visitors', based on a combination of curiosity and hospitality towards 'strangers'. Ireland too is well known for the same characteristics. A Dutch friend's wife is Irish and they regularly visit her home village in southern Ireland. He was amazed that local residents don't bother to lock their doors, even at night. They had no reason to suspect that anyone would come in and steal anything and they wanted their neighbors to be able to just walk in at any time of day or night should the need arise."

mikemorell; When I was living in the Washington DC area we locals had something we called "Tourist Fatigue" . I think it was around 2008 when so many Tourist swarmed the Washington DC area, that we locals were overwhelmed. Usually, we were happy to see tourist come to our town, but when they started, filling the buses and metro stations preventing us from getting to work on time, when they produced so much garbage that the maintenance crew had to go out every morning to clean up their mess, when they started breaking all the rules knowingly, or unknowingly, people had had enough ! When Tour-trips where constantly cancelled due to the high demand. When UBER rides and cab-drives went up 50-100%% . Tourist Fatigue set in...

It got so bad, that the Mayor of Washington DC had to go on TV and state that we "really" needed these tourist to help out economy. Most were doubtful. With that said, I'm very careful who I offend when taking my pictures these days. When I was young I used to love taking pictures of the 'homeless guy'. Not anymore ! These days I rather ask...

Good point. There are indeed tensions in cities and other locations that are popular tourist destinations. In my own country, Amsterdam stands out as a city where locals and commuters have 'tourist fatigue'. Tourism is important for hospitality venues, art galleries, etc. But locals and commuters do get fed up with the hordes of international tourists that clog up trains, train stations, and narrow streets. Especially when cyclists have to weave their way through meandering tourists every day.

So in cities like DC and Amsterdam (but also Rome, ...), locals are a lot less 'curious and hospitable' towards visitors than in smaller towns and cities that don't get many tourists.

mikemorell; When I was living in the Washington DC area we locals had something we called "Tourist Fatigue" . I think it was around 2008 when so many Tourist swarmed the Washington DC area, that we locals were overwhelmed. Usually, we were happy to see tourist come to our town, but when they started, filling the buses and metro stations preventing us from getting to work on time, when they produced so much garbage that the maintenance crew had to go out every morning to clean up their mess, when they started breaking all the rules knowingly, or unknowingly, people had had enough ! When Tour-trips where constantly cancelled due to the high demand. When UBER rides and cab-drives went up 50-100%% . Tourist Fatigue set in...

 

It got so bad, that the Mayor of Washington DC had to go on TV and state that we "really" needed these tourist to help out economy. Most were doubtful. With that said, I'm very careful who I offend when taking my pictures these days. When I was young I used to love taking pictures of the 'homeless guy'. Not anymore ! These days I rather ask...

San Francisco is a compact city and relies economically on tourism to a great extent. There’s not a whole lot of extra room here. And yet, I’ve never noticed tension between tourists and locals. We seem to welcome tourists and both the diversity and economic opportunities they offer us. People with cameras, individually and in groups, can be seen photographing throughout the city. A lot of different languages fill the streets. We’ve got a good mass transit system and lots of bikes and tourist vehicles for rent all over town.

I guess one lesson here is that we can’t always extrapolate from our own experience to that of others. It’s also possible that local policy in some tourist destinations doesn’t adequately keep pace with tourism and is as much or more to blame than tourism itself for whatever transportation and public services problems are arising.

When I first started photographing, I’d go down to The Wharf wanting to take pics of the local fishermen and shop owners. Dressing as much like a tourist as I could stomach (being the stylish fellow I am) tended to get me welcoming attitudes all around. White shoes and Hawaiian shirts seem inevitably to invite smiles.

Something to keep in mind is not to blame the victim of others’ suspicion or paranoia. If someone acts aggressively toward you for asking their permission or otherwise engaging them, it’s not necessarily because you’re doing something wrong. And a change in your behavior won’t always effect a change in the behavior of someone who eyes others as a danger. There are too many jerks in this world, individuals for whom “rugged individualism” has become a pathology.

Choose your battles, remembering there’s another good photo op just around the corner … or in a more friendly county.

I do a lot of landscape and, specifically, New Topographics style photography. 99% of the time, I'm shooting public spaces. When I'm not, it's because I can take the shot from a public place like a sidewalk. But I'm admittedly passing up on a lot of opportunities on private property.

 

I'd like to try and change that, and so I'm looking for experiences from those of you who are approaching private property and requesting permission to shoot. To get very specific, I'm targeting private homeowners, in the Midwest US. In my particular area, there's a high rate of gun ownership and lots of suspicions of strangers and so forth, especially in this political climate.

 

Why I'm asking for advice: On one of the few occasions I asked, I have been chased off private property by a homeowner, because I knocked on their door to ask permission to shoot some stuff in their yard. I had not taken any shots yet, but my camera was in hand and I only got half my first sentence out before he chased me off the property.

 

So, I'm wondering about:

• What's your general philosophy in approaching?
  
• Do you have an opening line or anything?
  
• If you do this a lot, what's your success rate? Was I just really unlucky in my rare attempt?
  
• Do you prepare your appearance at all? I have a luxury car and a beater, and I wonder if one or the other would work better at my introduction to them
  
• Any other thoughts, tips, anecdotes?
  

Get a different hobby. Try decay in abandoned homes.

I'd suggest that you do not say you're going to "shoot" anything. Use the word photograph.

I was crossing into the US at Detroit one time and the Customs Offcier asked me what the purpose of my visit was. I said that I was going to go shoot the IndyCar races on Belle Isle. That raised some eyebrows. I laughed and said, "I mean I am going to photograph the races." They let me in.

I've been interested in the "New Topographics" style of photography, a fan of Steven Shore and others, so I checked out Kiro's website. I think you might enjoy his photographs.

 

Projects - Kier Selinsky

:)

Interesting topic of discussion.

Having grown up in many places -especially The South, I came up with the attitude that you just didn't trespass on or bother anyone's property, land, definitely not their house or home!

Here in Pennsylvania, I lived out in the country for a couple decades. I lived back a dirt lane 1/2 mile off the road, along a creek at the back of 60 some-odd unoccupied, feral acres. With only 3 residences on our lane, all vehicles that belonged on the lane were known to us. ANY unknown vehicle that came back was suspect. I had outside dogs and encouraged them -trained them- to terrorize anyone crazy enough to actually drive into my yard. I wouldn't have been too receptive had anyone made it past the dogs and actually knocked- however impressed I might have been with their bravado.

It never ceased to amaze me how many people would just wander back a dirt lane to "see" what was back there. Or, worse yet, hunters coming back to hunt. I'd accost hunters back there every year at hunting season and most would try to tell me they'd "got permission". Well it didn't take long to sort THAT out believe me- being only 4 of us who could possibly have granted access to the land (us residents plus the guy who owned the acreage).

We'd run people out of there all the time and believe me we were NOT nice about it.

Now I live in the suburbs across the street from a municipal park. Having folks turn their cars around in our driveway is an every day occurrence. Of course people do sometimes knock on our door, and it's always harmless stuff- kids or people selling stuff for their schools or magazine subscriptions (or whatever), politicians, sometimes utility workers... occasionally the neighbors. The park is mostly busy so there's all manner of folks coming and gong up here. In fact we are quite near a small city and many of the visitors to the park appear to be urbanites of all colors, shapes, and sizes. So, I've become conditioned to people kinda crowding our personal space, although darn few ever "cross the line", in fact in all our years of living up here, we've never really had any problems.

Honestly, if anyone ever knocked on our door asking to photograph anything from our property, I'd probably talk to them for a bit to suss them out, and definitely ask to see their camera- then have a whole discussion about that. I'd want to see their instagram, check out their face b00k page, etc etc etc.

They'd no doubt be DYING to get away from me! :p

But overall, it's my experience that people will walk or drive right past (or around) however many NO TRESPASSING signs and do whatever the heck they please on whomever's land it is. One would literally have to have barbed & razor wire, gates with locks, armed guards, electric fence, security cameras, and dog patrols on duty- and somehow people would STILL make every attempt to come on ahead.

Just ask anyone who's had to do construction work on a public sidewalk or a remodel in a hotel how effective their barricades protecting the work area have been.

SO all this to say... good on you for even thinking to ask permission.

I'll always remember a sign I saw out in Missouri back in my teenage years when my dad was stationed out in the wilderness of The Ozarks.

It read,

NO TRESPASSING

survivors will be prosecuted

:D:p:eek:;)

Interesting topic of discussion.

Having grown up in many places -especially The South, I came up with the attitude that you just didn't trespass on or bother anyone's property, land, definitely not their house or home!

 

Here in Pennsylvania, I lived out in the country for a couple decades. I lived back a dirt lane 1/2 mile off the road, along a creek at the back of 60 some-odd unoccupied, feral acres. With only 3 residences on our lane, all vehicles that belonged on the lane were known to us. ANY unknown vehicle that came back was suspect. I had outside dogs and encouraged them -trained them- to terrorize anyone crazy enough to actually drive into my yard. I wouldn't have been too receptive had anyone made it past the dogs and actually knocked- however impressed I might have been with their bravado.

It never ceased to amaze me how many people would just wander back a dirt lane to "see" what was back there. Or, worse yet, hunters coming back to hunt. I'd accost hunters back there every year at hunting season and most would try to tell me they'd "got permission". Well it didn't take long to sort THAT out believe me- being only 4 of us who could possibly have granted access to the land (us residents plus the guy who owned the acreage).

We'd run people out of there all the time and believe me we were NOT nice about it.

 

Now I live in the suburbs across the street from a municipal park. Having folks turn their cars around in our driveway is an every day occurrence. Of course people do sometimes knock on our door, and it's always harmless stuff- kids or people selling stuff for their schools or magazine subscriptions (or whatever), politicians, sometimes utility workers... occasionally the neighbors. The park is mostly busy so there's all manner of folks coming and gong up here. In fact we are quite near a small city and many of the visitors to the park appear to be urbanites of all colors, shapes, and sizes. So, I've become conditioned to people kinda crowding our personal space, although darn few ever "cross the line", in fact in all our years of living up here, we've never really had any problems.

 

Honestly, if anyone ever knocked on our door asking to photograph anything from our property, I'd probably talk to them for a bit to suss them out, and definitely ask to see their camera- then have a whole discussion about that. I'd want to see their instagram, check out their face b00k page, etc etc etc.

They'd no doubt be DYING to get away from me! :p

 

But overall, it's my experience that people will walk or drive right past (or around) however many NO TRESPASSING signs and do whatever the heck they please on whomever's land it is. One would literally have to have barbed & razor wire, gates with locks, armed guards, electric fence, security cameras, and dog patrols on duty- and somehow people would STILL make every attempt to come on ahead.

 

Just ask anyone who's had to do construction work on a public sidewalk or a remodel in a hotel how effective their barricades protecting the work area have been.

 

SO all this to say... good on you for even thinking to ask permission.

 

I'll always remember a sign I saw out in Missouri back in my teenage years when my dad was stationed out in the wilderness of The Ozarks.

 

It read,

 

NO TRESPASSING

survivors will be prosecuted

 

:D:p:eek:;)

Why not? The road is public.

I was last year visiting my parent's house, the house where I lived when I was young.

I took some pictures of other houses down the street, where I know people who used

to live, but had since moved away.

Taken from the street, so not standing on private property.

One person did ask why I was taking a picture of his house.

I explained the reason, though I wasn't sure he was convinced.

Most of the houses have been completely remodeled.

Often torn down and a new house built. I don't see much reason

I would want to see inside, as it isn't the house I would remember.

My mom once visited the house she lived in when she was young,

so maybe 80 years ago. She got to know the owner, enough to

write letters, and might have seen the inside.

If it is for commercial use, that is a different question. Then you have

to figure out releases, and possibly payments.

Why not? The road is public.

Ricochetrider can certainly explain that situation, but it "sounds" just like what we have here, minus a couple extra neighbors. Once you leave the "road" to drive to our house, or our neighbors, you're on private property and have been for a few hundred yards. Nothing public about it and it goes nowhere that is either.

I think I'd be suspicious of somebody wanting to photograph my place, or something from my place...I've already done that! I'd listen to their spiel however.

Famous last words: "I know my rights".

Yeah it's uphill from there. or worse.

I have been one of those that enjoys exploring back roads that often turn into a dead end access road. After moving to Oregon I do that much less often. I respect a no trespass or private road sign. If unposted I will go for it and feel comfortable. With a camera I have had more issues with traveling backroads on a bicycle then being in a car. Around here dogs love to run you down on back roads where they generally have more freedom. The few times I have been questioned regarding picture taking it turned out well with a friendly conversation. With a notable exception ....

I was shooting on a public street in the Trieste downtown area. With camera at eye level I was framing the posters and an unposted demo site with a new building in the background.

As he appeared from out of frame from behind a parked car I instinctively started to step backwards and I clicked the release on my xpan. His hand is quite close to me. In the middle of the street with me speaking broken Italian I learned he was a security guard for the property being demolished. He insisted on confiscating my film. Not a friendly discourse at all. I refused and insisted "I was within my rights"... It got worse, nearly an aggressive escalation. He threatened to involve the Polizia or worse for me the Carabinieri (due to some question of the buildings purpose). I agreed and fortunately it was diffused.

Why not? The road is public.

Ricochetrider can certainly explain that situation, but it "sounds" just like what we have here, minus a couple extra neighbors. Once you leave the "road" to drive to our house, or our neighbors, you're on private property and have been for a few hundred yards. Nothing public about it and it goes nowhere that is either.

 

I think I'd be suspicious of somebody wanting to photograph my place, or something from my place...I've already done that! I'd listen to their spiel however.

Correct, Doug. Ours was a private dirt lane. Back some time ago, Pennsylvania townships sought out all the tiny private dirt lanes people lived on and named them all- under the "guise" (what me paranoid? NAH lol) of needing to positively ID the location in the event of an emergency. Henceforward from then, all dirt lanes have had an official "road" sign. Our lane (West Slate Hill Road) dead ended in someone's yard. We had 3 occupied homes with a total of 5 properties at creekside, at the back side of a bigger 60 some-odd acres of land that was being farmed when I first moved out there but became feral or fallow once the farming stopped.

Didn't matter how many No Trespassing signs we had up, people would often wander back the lane.

So, anecdotally...

My sister lived in Senegal for a number of years and in 2016 my GF & I visited her there. Of all the places I've ever been, the country has, hands down, the mellowest, sweetest vibe and the locals there are absolutely lovely. BUT it is forbidden to photograph many public and all government buildings. It is not acceptable to shoot photos of people not eh street. Senegal is mostly Muslim with pockets of Christianity. While the people are super fantastic and very friendly overall... we chose to be respectful of local laws, certainly- as well as local traditions including the informal "ban" on photographing people.

We got a tour of the massive fishing "port" at Kafountine- really just a beach where literally tons of fish are processed- carried off boats, cut up and cleaned, then smoked or sun dried. Of the literally thousands of people there, we 3 were the only white or non-local ones there. I had a woman stand up and "threaten" me, waving her knife at me as I shot a photo over her head. Our guide calmed her down but yeah it could have gotten ugly if he hadn't intervened- because she thought I'd photographed her. .

Back some time ago, Pennsylvania townships sought out all the tiny private dirt lanes people lived on and named them all- under the "guise" (what me paranoid? NAH lol) of needing to positively ID the location in the event of an emergency.

Don't know the full story, of course, but sounds reasonable to me. Hopefully, you won't have an emergency that forces you to test the theory of whether it helps maintain safety (one of the jobs of government). I've always felt that a healthy skepticism or suspicion of government was warranted and that many Americans take this to a very unhealthy extreme.

And there's my two-tenths of a dime's worth for ya! :)

because she thought I'd photographed her. .

It's hard not to make at least some connection between her suspicion of you and your suspicion of those wandering down your lane. Maybe we have to reframe Aristotle, who credited our species above all others with rationality. Nowadays, it does seem that suspicion may be gaining in speed in the traits department. And, the strange thing is, we only have ourselves to blame for bringing about such circumstances that would inspire such suspicion. I'm hoping that the species that replaces us when we kill ourselves and our universe off by our own "advancements" will do a better job all around.

Don't know the full story, of course, but sounds reasonable to me. Hopefully, you won't have an emergency that forces you to test the theory of whether it helps maintain safety (one of the jobs of government). I've always felt that a healthy skepticism or suspicion of government was warranted and that many Americans take this to a very unhealthy extreme.

 

And there's my two-tenths of a dime's worth for ya! :)

Yes, Sam, that's totally reasonable of course. Suspicion seems to be a natural part of the Human Condition- for better or worse.

Well.... since you've mentioned it- as it happened, one of the 2 times we needed "official" help back the lane was when my house caught fire in the middle of one Winter night in January 1987. The lane was snowed shut and the fire trucks couldn't get back there until the township came with a massive front end loader and dug 1/2 mile of the lane clear!

The house burned all the way to the ground, but was in fact mostly gone by the time anyone knew it was burning. the neighbors and owners of the house were awakened around 4 AM by the sound of my .357 shell sdischarging in my dresser drawer as my bedroom became engulfed in flames!

How did WE get in & out in these times of heavy snow? Cross country skis! We'd park at the end ion the lane out by the road and ski in and out. When the fire happened my roommate's car was at the end of the lane- so a LOT of energy got used up by folks thinking he'd gotten killed in the fire! Happily, it turned out he had driven off with some buddy of his and was as safe as one could be out in the world- on a 3 day drunk. LOL

still

I would have no problem with it. Can’t imagine what I would find objectionable about someone photographing my property. Maybe it comes from living in a big city, where people walk within feet of my front door every day and I’ve taken lots of pics of houses and gardens in the neighborhood without giving it much of a thought.

 

True story (no camera involved) … About 20 years ago, a boyfriend and I stopped at a house in an adjacent neighborhood. From the street, we were looking at the walls of their kitchen, because we were getting ready to paint ours and liked their color. At the right moment, the man of the house came along and yelled at us for peeping at his wife. We explained that we were two gay guys much more interested in his interior design than his wife. He was amused enough and the situation was diffused with no need for artillery.

a violation on the wife, and man of the house.. and a violation of good taste.

It also raises a few points that people wandering the property are up to no good. Sort of like the strange dude who buys a trampoline and lets all the 6 too 16 year old girls and boys play on it