4x5 Camera Recommendations? — [For Studio]

I'm toying with getting a 4x5 camera for still-life / flowers and possibly cloudscapes from the window.

 

The camera will not be leaving the house so it doesn't have to be a field camera.

 

I'm thinking maybe a Sinar, Toyo or Horseman monorail.

 

Not toooo heavy.

 

Reasonable bellows extension would be good.

 

Good range of spares / accessories at a reasonable price is also a consideration.

 

A 6x12 back would be ideal.

 

Geared focus would be essential.

 

Can anyone recommend anything?

 

I see loads of 4x5 cameras on eBay and know next to nothing about them.

 

Thanks for any advice,

 

Stephen.

I've been a happy Toyo user for almost 40 years--a 45 F and more recently, 45 G (in my avatar photo). The G is really solid with geared rise/fall, focusing and shifts. It weighs 12 lbs. without a lens, so a heavy tripod with a good head is a must. Both models are modular, accepting the same extension/bag bellows and compendium hoods, but the F comes with just one long rail while the G comes with the same extension but the rail is two pieces and is threaded so that you can add more rail if you need more extension than the standard rail allows. I have 30" of rail and a custom built matching bellows that I acquired for a book project photographing jewelry. It was solid enough to work perfectly with multiple flash pops. Accessories seem to be ready available and were always less expensive than the excellent Sinar system. Any of the more modern cameras from the last 40 years or so should accept a 6x12 back, but I don't own one so I don't know if there are brand specific limitations on that. One thing to keep in mind is that lenses are interchangeable between brands via new lens boards, so if you don't fall in love with the first camera you buy it doesn't mean purchasing a whole new system as it does when you switch from Nikon to Canon in the DSLR world. Good luck!

I have a Calumet-Cambo, they sell pretty cheap on eBay and there are plenty of used and new parts for it. I think I paid less than $200 for mine, but that was 15+ years ago. I have used it indoor and outdoors, but wouldn't think about taking it outdoors these days. I basically use it for still-life, portraits and close ups.

Sinar P or P2. P for Perfect (wel... but almost).

 

The arrangement of the axes makes positioning the focus plane quick and so easy that a 4 year old could do it.

Every fine movement is geared. You can use lenses in shutter, or insert a Sinar/Copal shutter and use lenses without shutter. There is a Sinar probe to meter light in the image plane (with Gossen or Minolta meters).

Solid. A large 'system'. And many, many to choose from, for quite reasonable amounts, on the used market.

Get a couple of ancillary standards (as a compendium holder, or intermediate support for a long bellows) and before you know it you can turn your P into an F and have a much lighter field version too.

What's not to like? ;-)

 

The P2 is the latest, slightly improved version. But the P leaves little to complain about already.

 

They are heavy. Yes.

Edited January 30, 2022 by q.g._de_bakker

I've had a couple Calumets and they're workhorses, probably fine for what you describe. Now I've got an Omega, which is just a rebranded Toyo, and can't complain. Sinars are great, but priced a bit higher. Don't know a thing about 6x12 backs, but IMO, a rollfilm holder is a great thing to have, like a Calumet C2 if you can find one. Geared focus doesn't mean much; they all have some method of fine focus. The old Calumets were disk-in-groove friction focus and, clean and lubed, they focus as well as anything. Inspect bellows carefully for leaks and fix as needed. At the age of many, light leaks are common. I had a new bellows made for my Omega because the old one was falling apart.

I forgot about the back: yes, a 6x12 back is available from Sinar.

And backs for any other roll film format upto 6x12, including a variable back that allows any format from 6x4.5 upto 6x12, allowing to change format mid-roll.

 

I have 6x9 and the variable backs. Use the latter most, almost exclusively in 6x12 format. Pricey. But good. The variable backs are even more expensive, and a bit fragile, i think. But since i hardly ever use the feature, no worries.

 

The slide in like film holders, or attach using the Graflock thingies. And there are focussing screen masks available to clip on, of course.

 

I now use scanning backs mostly. 8x10 cm, about 48 MP. Not as good as scanned film. But hey...!

Edited January 30, 2022 by q.g._de_bakker

I've been a happy Toyo user for almost 40 years--a 45 F and more recently, 45 G (in my avatar photo). The G is really solid with geared rise/fall, focusing and shifts. It weighs 12 lbs. without a lens, so a heavy tripod with a good head is a must. Both models are modular, accepting the same extension/bag bellows and compendium hoods, but the F comes with just one long rail while the G comes with the same extension but the rail is two pieces and is threaded so that you can add more rail if you need more extension than the standard rail allows. I have 30" of rail and a custom built matching bellows that I acquired for a book project photographing jewelry. It was solid enough to work perfectly with multiple flash pops. Accessories seem to be ready available and were always less expensive than the excellent Sinar system. Any of the more modern cameras from the last 40 years or so should accept a 6x12 back, but I don't own one so I don't know if there are brand specific limitations on that. One thing to keep in mind is that lenses are interchangeable between brands via new lens boards, so if you don't fall in love with the first camera you buy it doesn't mean purchasing a whole new system as it does when you switch from Nikon to Canon in the DSLR world. Good luck!

Thanks AJ. 45Gs look good, if a little pricier than the 45C. I have to look at the differences between those two. Sinar look like the Cadillac of large format but they're also more expensive by the looks of it. I see a nice Horseman on eBay here in the UK but again it's a little pricey. I need to think and research some more…

I have a Calumet-Cambo, they sell pretty cheap on eBay and there are plenty of used and new parts for it. I think I paid less than $200 for mine, but that was 15+ years ago. I have used it indoor and outdoors, but wouldn't think about taking it outdoors these days. I basically use it for still-life, portraits and close ups.

Thanks. Cambo are reasonably priced here in the UK too. Not maybe as plentiful on eBay as, say, Toyo but I'll look into the specs and take it from there.

Remember when comparing that Sinar Ps may be a bit more expensive, but that the off-centre axes and geared movements make setting rotational movements a lot more direct and thus quicker than using the arrangement most (if not all) other options offer (including the old Sinar Norma). Makes using these cameras, i found, a lot less cumbersome.

 

Focus one part, swing or tilt until the opposite part is in focus too. With minimal or no adjustment of focus.

The traditional, center axis way is a constant and reiterative adjustment of both movement and focus. Works too, of course. But takes more time and effort.

 

But i will try to shut up about Sinars now.

Sinar P or P2. P for Perfect (wel... but almost).

 

The arrangement of the axes makes positioning the focus plane quick and so easy that a 4 year old could do it.

Every fine movement is geared. You can use lenses in shutter, or insert a Sinar/Copal shutter and use lenses without shutter. There is a Sinar probe to meter light in the image plane (with Gossen or Minolta meters).

Solid. A large 'system'. And many, many to choose from, for quite reasonable amounts, on the used market.

Get a couple of ancillary standards (as a compendium holder, or intermediate support for a long bellows) and before you know it you can turn your P into an F and have a much lighter field version too.

What's not to like? ;-)

 

The P2 is the latest, slightly improved version. But the P leaves little to complain about already.

 

They are heavy. Yes.

Thanks. Sinar do look nice and lots of spares available on eBay. They're available for reasonable money too. Weight might be an issue — as I've said to other posters in this thread, I think I have to do more research into the various makes and models and see what the specs are.

Remember when comparing that Sinar Ps may be a bit more expensive, but that the off-centre axes and geared movements make setting rotational movements a lot more direct and thus quicker than using the arrangement most (if not all) other options offer (including the old Sinar Norma). Makes using these cameras, i found, a lot less cumbersome.

 

Focus one part, swing or tilt until the opposite part is in focus too. With minimal or no adjustment of focus.

The traditional, center axis way is a constant and reiterative adjustment of both movement and focus. Works too, of course. But takes more time and effort.

 

But i will try to shut up about Sinars now.

 

Haha. Okay. Points noted thanks.

I've had a couple Calumets and they're workhorses, probably fine for what you describe. Now I've got an Omega, which is just a rebranded Toyo, and can't complain. Sinars are great, but priced a bit higher. Don't know a thing about 6x12 backs, but IMO, a rollfilm holder is a great thing to have, like a Calumet C2 if you can find one. Geared focus doesn't mean much; they all have some method of fine focus. The old Calumets were disk-in-groove friction focus and, clean and lubed, they focus as well as anything. Inspect bellows carefully for leaks and fix as needed. At the age of many, light leaks are common. I had a new bellows made for my Omega because the old one was falling apart.

Thanks Conrad. Toyo are looking like they might be a good choice — plentiful and reasonably-priced. Horseman do a 6x12 back which looks like it's what I want. Just need to check if it fits all 4x5 backs or not. Your points about leaking bellows and focus mechanisms are noted.

Remember when comparing that Sinar Ps may be a bit more expensive, but that the off-centre axes and geared movements make setting rotational movements a lot more direct and thus quicker than using the arrangement most (if not all) other options offer (including the old Sinar Norma). Makes using these cameras, i found, a lot less cumbersome.

 

Focus one part, swing or tilt until the opposite part is in focus too. With minimal or no adjustment of focus.

The traditional, center axis way is a constant and reiterative adjustment of both movement and focus. Works too, of course. But takes more time and effort.

 

But i will try to shut up about Sinars now.

And some Linhof’s also featured those asymmetrical movements. Except, unlike Sinar, Linhof’s had continually variable assymetric movement.

I forgot about the back: yes, a 6x12 back is available from Sinar.

And backs for any other roll film format upto 6x12, including a variable back that allows any format from 6x4.5 upto 6x12, allowing to change format mid-roll.

 

I have 6x9 and the variable backs. Use the latter most, almost exclusively in 6x12 format. Pricey. But good. The variable backs are even more expensive, and a bit fragile, i think. But since i hardly ever use the feature, no worries.

 

The slide in like film holders, or attach using the Graflock thingies. And there are focussing screen masks available to clip on, of course.

 

I now use scanning backs mostly. 8x10 cm, about 48 MP. Not as good as scanned film. But hey...!

 

I don't know exactly what a Graflock back is but I keep hearing about them. I'm looking at the Sinar Vario backs which look very nice — thanks for the tip. [The Horseman 6x12 backs are more expensive for some reason / eBay.]

 

I hadn't realised such a thing as a scanning back existed. Something else to research…

A Graflok, or International, back is a back that uses sliders to keep a ground glass assembly or film holders in place behind the camera. Has become a standard fitting.

Typically sheet film holders slide in between back and (hinged) ground glass assembly. But some thicker ones do not fit in between, and the ground glass assembly is removed and the film holder attached using these sliders to fix them in place.

 

 

BetterLight scanning backs. PhaseOne did some too, at one time.

 

Neither brand backs are still available, except sometimes, used. I have a couple of BetterLight backs (but for the life of me can't remember whether the 48 MP i quoted before is correct, or too low. Have to go have a look. I just use the things and the images they produce...)

 

Being from a number of years ago, these BetterLight thingies typically connect through a box that contains their primary storage, which was (shock horror!) an SCSI-drive. Luckily, the latest ones were made available with a unit that contains (from memory) an IDE HDD and connects through USB...

Keeping the ViewFinder scanning software alive is hard enough, with the driver needing to be reinstalled after each and every Windows update (and you need to put Windows in a mode that allows unsigned drivers first). Keeping SCSI support alive is nearly impossible.

 

These scanning backs are IR sensitive, so need an IR blocking filter in front of the lens to get correct colour. Still available from several sources.

 

And they absolutely need constant light. It takes a while to scan the entire width of the image. And any variation in light during that time will result in darker and lighter lines. So either in stable, bright natural light with a relatively short scan time. Or in the studio with stable light.

And yes, unless you like éxperimental photography, good for still life only.

Edited January 31, 2022 by q.g._de_bakker

Thanks AJ. 45Gs look good, if a little pricier than the 45C. I have to look at the differences between those two. Sinar look like the Cadillac of large format but they're also more expensive by the looks of it. I see a nice Horseman on eBay here in the UK but again it's a little pricey. I need to think and research some more…

The C was the entry level Toyo--a decent camera but not as solid or convenient as the G. The C is lighter and uses more plastic; the G is heavier and is mostly aluminum, hence somewhat sturdier and rigid. Since you're not planning to carry it around a lot I would go with a G if it were me. As for Sinar vs. Toyo, the Sinar movements are somewhat easier to learn but it didn't take me long when I bought my first 4x5 to get used to center tilts/swings, so I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker if I were you.

The C was the entry level Toyo--a decent camera but not as solid or convenient as the G. The C is lighter and uses more plastic; the G is heavier and is mostly aluminum, hence somewhat sturdier and rigid. Since you're not planning to carry it around a lot I would go with a G if it were me. As for Sinar vs. Toyo, the Sinar movements are somewhat easier to learn but it didn't take me long when I bought my first 4x5 to get used to center tilts/swings, so I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker if I were you.

Thanks for that. The G isn't all that much more expensive. In fact 4x5 cameras in general seem to be great value at the moment. Sinar: I don't think I'll really be using movements all that much. Cheers.

Hello

my point of view about SINAR vs rest of world...

SINAR is the best due to modular system (as TOYO, ARCA or Linhof) and to copal-sinar shutter (as no-one else) ...

This copal-sinar shutter is a very good accessory that allows use of plenty lenses without shutter! a must have!

I have 4~5 SINAR (F-4x5, Norma-4x5, P-4x5, P-8x10, S2-8x10) and 4 copal-sinar shutter.

(But for usual lenses, prefer shuttered one as possible and use copal-sinar shutter only for exotic lenses like apo-ronar, petzval lenses, repro lenses, enlarger lenses...)

The P (or P2) is very heavy and rigid camera that done for still life photo. Really easy to use.

The F (or F1 or F2) is lightweight but more "springy", very good for field photo and extension use with P/P2

The NORMA is rigid as P/P2 but less versatile for still life photo than P/P2 due to tilt/shift disposition...

 

For still life photo, I like to use a standard bellows + a wide angle bellows near spring-back to be sure not have vignetting with huge tilts...

In still life photo you will be quickly in proxy photo mode (G=1/2 to G=1/1) and for perspective problems, long focal lenses are bester.

With 240~360mm focal lens, bellow for G=1/2 is respectively 360mm and 540mm, more than standard bellow occur (400mm without tilt)...

 

6x12 back.

I have two: SINAR ZOOM-2 that allows 4.5x6 to 6x12 format and Da-Yi.

The SINAR is a good choice as it is insertable back but I prefer the Da-Yi because I opened it to 56x118mm (instead 56x112mm of SINAR and Da-Yi right from box).

In studio, for still life, Da-Yi (even not opened) is enough but removing spring-back become quickly boring...

 

On Youtube, I done some video on SINAR but in French (name start with "T011a SINAR" to "T011f SINAR")

 

J.Ph.

Hello

Sinar P or P2. P for Perfect (wel... but almost).

...

There is a Sinar probe to meter light in the image plane (with Gossen or Minolta meters).

...

They are heavy. Yes.

Focal probe is very good system (like TTL system in SLR), I use Broncolor one with happiness...

I haven't been convince by minolta way to show measurement, same for Gossen (or SINARSIX).

Broncolor tells you to open or close your exposure by of a number of "stop", much more easy to use, in some condition, it takes real shutter speed for measurement...

(you fire with the probe, real aperture, real speed, real flash, real light and it tell you i.e. to open 2 5/10 stops you can apply to speed or aperture....)

J.Ph.

Edited February 2, 2022 by jean_philippe_amans

Yes, i forgot about Broncolor. Great brand flash units too. I use Gossen myself.

Sinar has dedicated rear frames to accomodate probes, but the meters with probes can be used on all cameras accepting standard film holders too, using a holder that takes the probe and has a fixture to hold the meter.

Hello

 

Focal probe is very good system (like TTL system in SLR), I use Broncolor one with happiness...

I haven't been convince by minolta way to show measurement, same for Gossen (or SINARSIX).

Broncolor tells you to open or close your exposure by of a number of "stop", much more easy to use, in some condition, it takes real shutter speed for measurement...

(you fire with the probe, real aperture, real speed, real flash, real light and it tell you i.e. to open 2 5/10 stops you can apply to speed or aperture....)

J.Ph.

Thanks Jean Phillipe.