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Is the 50/1.5 Summarit really THAT bad ??


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Whew, those were a lot of thoughtful responses - thanks a lot !! As always on this forum, opinions were split quite a bit :-) I think I'll go for it - especially since the dealer has a 60 days exchange policy.

 

If I decide to do so, I'll post my results here, so we can finally get to know, whether the Sumarit really is "a beautiful lens" or "a 70+ year-old POS" :-)

 

Thanks again,

 

Soeren

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Film Fuji Superia 800 from Walmart<BR><BR>Processing and scanning Frontier at Walmart<BR><BR>Camera Body Bessa R<BR><BR>Lens Summarit 50mm F1.5 LTM at F1.5<BR><BR>Decent amount of digital noise in the shadows; byproduct of a 7 cent scan.:)<BR><BR><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/Summarit%20F15/SUMMARITF15BESSASMALL.jpg?t=1186239605"><BR><BR><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/Summarit%20F15/SUMMARITF15BESSACROP100.jpg?t=1186239842">
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<p> Most all leica lenses are FAR better than there obsolete rangefinder focusing mechcanisms. All testing of leica lenses done by myself has revealed that the badly collimated levers and gears and reflective windows are giving out on m39 & L/M rangefinder cameras M series. That said, the lenses are simply great on Modern Mirrorless cameras; DSLM. From m4/3 rd's to APS-C to Sony Full frame A7 series, the lenses draw blood when focused at 7x magnified focus. There is NO system as good as Mirrorless digital focusing using EVF eyepieces, period! Nikon & Canon both know this and Nikon latest DSLR use the Sony FF chip, so what does that tell you? As for the Summarit 5cm F:1.5 which is nothing more than a coated Xenon in 5cm, USE a lens shade! Myself I have discovered that a polarizer & rubber collapsible sunshade to be the best combination on a Sony DSLM camera. Lens flare is reduced greatly and the polarizer helps reduce the chromatic abberation the early design of the lens may have have. A 40.5mm polarizer and rubber shade is the answer and a God send! Otherwise a stupid photographer using any leica Rangefinder camera & any older fast lens (F:1.5 or <) wide open with No lens shade is an idiot and should never be allowed to post there result or comments.<br>

Leica lens in the 1950's used air spaces between elements, no balsam glue! Leica was NOT the only manufacturer to do this. Unfortunately time and high humidty climates have played havoc with these lenses. There almost always humidty hazed and need to be taken apart and cleaned. Sometimes this is easy, sometimes its not! If your buying the lens from any coastal area of high temperature and humidty, like the gulf coast USA be warned that online sellers are liars; they know the lens is hazed, BUT they rarely check it with a good strong backlighted flashlight. Anyway there not likely to tell the truth, so you better darn well ask? In a yard sale, auction, or camera show; its easy to see, you dont want to buy that lens! Watch out for Florida to Texas gulf coast lenses and cameras, my experience is too stay away, or get it dirt cheap! A cleaned Summarit 5cm F:1.5 is an excellent lens on a recently serviced Leica m39 or L/M mount rangefinder camera, if used with a sunshade! On a DSLM camera with a Polarizer & Rubber Sunshade its shockingly GREAT! Regards, Don@Eastwestphoto</p>

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An old thread, I've taken apart 5 Summarit 5cm f1.5's, and in all cases the inner barrel was marked "51.1". The focal length is shorter than the 51.6mm that the RF is calibrated for. I suspect this is to deal with focus shift, best focus is at F2.8 when used close-up and F1.5 at infinity. <p>

 

I modified one of my Summarits by moving the rear group back 0.2mm. This slightly increased the focal length, and optimized the lens for F1.5 used close-up. Focus is still good at infinity. <p>

 

Wide-Open on the M9:<p>

 

<img src="http://www.leicaplace.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=558&d=1368924158"> <p>

 

wide-open on the M Monochrom:<p>

 

<img src="http://www.leicaplace.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=549&d=1368923898"><p>

 

<p>

 

For comparison, a 1943 Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5 Sonnar "T", original LTM mount and perfect glass. Wide-Open on the M Monochrom.<p><p>

 

<img src="http://www.leicaplace.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=729&d=1370742048"> <p>

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<p>I've just had my Summarit recoated - actually the groups had to be teased apart first, so rebuilt would be more like it - and it's a wonderful piece of glass, now that the thing is spotless and has been optimized with modern gear to current standards.<br>

Wide open it's an instant "antique" Xenon-type large format look, especially in black-and-white and just a stop and a half down it's back to the regular signature Leica 35mm look.<br>

I use it for fashion and beauty portraiture and street / lifestyle shots on an M9, and can compare it with a v8 50mm 'cron and a 45mm f/2 G2 Planar that I also have in M mount. Well worth it, and definitely not for everybody. </p>

 

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  • 2 years later...
I just finished a series of test shots with a rebuilt, front element polished and rebuilt LTM version. The polished and recoated front element gave it good results stopped down, and much improved wide open. I've yet to shoot it with b/w film. Comparing pre-restoration shots with the current post rebuilt lens results made it again a nice vintage lens giving good, but not great, results.
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It’s probably the case that the “character” some old lenses have is the product of age rather than original characteristics. I’m not sure all lens makers really shot for “sharp to the corners” in the old days. Leica and Zeiss both have been working toward that goal for decades, especially. Leica with it’s “quality at any price” mentality. For many lenses, wide open wasn’t great, it was more of a vanity thing. That dream of surgical sharpness corner to corner is a pretty recent achievement for many lenses (recent measured in the last couple of decades) and now that they have, it turns out many people don’t quite approve, at least for some purposes (for portraits for example).

 

My old DR Summicron 50 was a good lens, but not the equal of my modern Summicron 50 (pre Aspherical). At the time the Summarit was made, I’m guessing even for Leica f/1.5 was somewhat soft, at least in the corners, but probably only by today’s standards.

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I shot my test photos with fuji 400 C41 wich took away a bit of the pastel effect. Wide open my results were just a little better than #2 above. Stopping down, with a tripod and even lighting, resolution improved, contrast just slightly. I'm looking forward to testing it with b/w. Corners were very low res, but better stopped down, not at all near modern but not ugly as the transition is smooth. I see it as a special purpose lens. My experience matches Carbon's comment old Summicron v. newer version.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Could've sworn I posted in this topic....Ah, No, that was the other one.

 

I feel the Summarit and the Xenon mainly get a bad rap because of 70-80 years of grime building up in them. After cleaning they're quite capable.

 

http://www.flibweb.nl/flibweb/cpg154/albums/userpics/10001/PD180507.jpg

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  • 2 years later...

Little Jessie and big Taylor are good buddies.

Leica M10, 50mm f/1.5 Summarit (1954, designed 1936. Recoated at Focal Point Lens 2017.)

*************************************

This was the first Leica lens I ever used, back in 1969. My grandfather bought it with an M3 camera in Heidelberg in 1954. I'd spiral-scratched the softly-coated front element with over zealous cleaning when I was a teenager. I had it recoated by John van Stelton at Focal Point Lens a month before he retired.

 

I'm quite impressed with the overall rendering - sharper than expected at maximum f/1.5 aperture, but still soft and flared enough for a vintage rendering. It had been so soft before recoating that I hadn't used it much.

 

DPET-M10-JESSIE_TAYLOR-1007864-5.thumb.jpg.0443781fc8bca744c4f66809f1f5aab4.jpg

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The Summarit is a slightly different optical formula than the Xenon. A member on the Leica forum posted some of the original Leica design documentation showing the difference for the elements. I have two Summarits, one with perfect glass and a very clean Xenon. Both are quite good. I've taken the Xenon out with an uncoated 1934 Sonnar 5cm F1.5- the latter is better. But- the Xenon much better than the reputation.
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Yeah, the glass types used for elements in the Xenon are identical to those in the Summarit. There is a very slight difference between some of the shapes of the elements between the two, but overall performance is very similar. And the Summarit should theoretically have some improved contrast due to better coating (The Xenon originally wouldn't have had it, certainly not in batches delivered before WW2). The MTF diagrams are similar too....as in the resolving power of these lenses is all over the place

 

I have a Xenon, a scratchy Summarit and a spotless Summarit and I agree their reputation is often reported far worse then they actually are.

 

Scratchy Summarit

MA200223.jpg

 

Spotless Summarit

Mats1805b.jpg

 

Xenon

WA190517.jpg

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This one has come back regularly since 2007, nearly as many times as the Universal Studio's Frankenstein. "The Son of Summarit" this one might be called.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the advent of 'digital imagery' has led to a sharpness fetish.

 

A f/1.5 lens was not made for the brightest and bestest conditions, it was "targeted towards photographers who wanted to shoot in dim light"

 

That's what it was made for and that is what it is still very good for. Everything else is lagniappe.

 

available.jpg.1c4e641c61f6da130716a11a43bc2dcc.jpg

from the era when

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My Summarit experience mirrors Mark Bohrer's including the effort to have John Van Stelten's restoration. In comparison color shots I made with a Nikon f1.4 50 mm Contax mount, I find both lenses still usable at 1.4 and 1.5 although low contrast and corners reflect their 60+ years. I prefer using the Summarit on an M3 rather than on a Leica LTM as it is easier to hold the M3 and focus. I'm fortunate to have the actual Summarit lens hood as both lenses are flare prone. Buy one only in great condition, badly scratched you'd be wasting film.
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My Summarit experience mirrors Mark Bohrer's including the effort to have John Van Stelten's restoration. In comparison color shots I made with a Nikon f1.4 50 mm Contax mount, I find both lenses still usable at 1.4 and 1.5 although low contrast and corners reflect their 60+ years. I prefer using the Summarit on an M3 rather than on a Leica LTM as it is easier to hold the M3 and focus. I'm fortunate to have the actual Summarit lens hood as both lenses are flare prone. Buy one only in great condition, badly scratched you'd be wasting film.

 

 

I'm wondering who did your restoration. I'm thinking of it for my Summar.

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I had a Summarit on a Leica M-3 that I sold when I decided to get into large format. The decision was made easier by the low quality images that I got from what was a badly scratched front element--my Pentax 50 mm f/1.7 ran rings around it wide open, and the Summarit didn't look very good until at least f/8. This was one sample in fairly bad condition, and I wasn't interested in softer focus/lower contrast at the time. The Zeiss Sonnars (post war f/2 and f/1.5) that I have used are much sharper and less flare prone, but they are also in mint condition so not a fair comparison.
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Arthur, unfortunately John Van Stelten restored my Summarit several years before he retired and to the best of my knowledge, no one acquired his service. Additionally, over the years I've commented in this post regarding use of my LTM Summarit both before and after its restoration.

 

The following may be of interest to anyone contemplating a Summarit restoration. I just reviewed my John Van Stelen Summarit restoration correspondence and the following may be of interest. Upon disassembly, JVS reported my lens was in mechanical good shape with just dried out lubricant. There was no lubricant migration from the shutter leaves onto the adjacent lens elements. With the noticeable exception of the front element, the other lens elements were in good condition. However the front element was in very poor condition due to cleaning erosion of the entire front surface to the extent that the lens coating was almost completely gone and the lens itself extensively scratched. I was informed by JVS that Summarit lens coating and the element itself were soft from new and easily damaged. To complete the restoration, JVS offered to polish and re-coat the front element, then finish the restoration with centering and refocusing. JVS said the result would be close to but not matching Leica standards. However there was one condition regarding the front element restoration: Due the high heat used during the re-coating process, there was a strong possibility that the thermal stress during the re-coating process would crack the front lens for which no replacement was available. I agreed to accept the risk of breakage loss and JVS proceeded with the cleaning, re-polishing, optical bench focusing and fortunately subsequent re-coating proceeded without any problem. As I stated above, I enjoy using the Summarit, but it really is a special purpose lens that gets very careful use. At present I know of no Summarit lens restoration service comparable to that of the retired VanStelten. However you may wish to contact Gus Lazzari for his thoughts on a Summar restoration as he has several on his waiting list.

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