Purple spots on processes film...moisture issue?

So I have been shooting 120 film with a bronica sq-a and

absolutely loving it other than the fact that I frequently

get my images back ruined with purple spots on them. I

do live in Hawaii in a humid environment and take a lot

of shots near the water so I am assuming this is a

moisture issue. This never happens with any of my

35mm rolls. If anyone has any experience please let me

know if there's a way to prevent this in the future. Do I

have to finish a roll quickly to avoid this? Thanks for any

help!<div></div>

<p>What film? How processed? Purple usually means the anti-halation dye hasn't been completely washed out. Moisture will give you other problems. </p>

It's Kodak Ektar 100 ISO 120 film. I send it to the

Darkroom in California for standard processing and get

it mailed back to me as there are no film processing

places in my area. When I asked them what the issue was they said it was most likely an issue of moisture getting onto the film. I would love some other opinions.<div></div>

<p>That is strange. </p>

<p>It doesn't look like what I would expect from moisture. I would mostly expect moisture problems if you took cold film into a warm moist area. You are supposed to warm up frozen (or refrigerated) film before opening the sealed package. </p>

<p>But even if you did use frozen film, I would expect a somewhat uniform layer of condensation, and so small spots all over the frame. This looks more like a big drop. Possibly it sticks to the backing paper, then peels off when you wind. But it has to be a big drop. </p>

[stephen] "I would love some other opinions."

 

Hi, I'm pretty doubtful it's anything you did. Unless you are unwinding your rolls in a darkroom, or getting water inside your camera somehow, or this sort of oddball thing.

 

Like Glen said, it seems to be actual droplets getting onto the film. Since you're shooting 120 roll-film, the only time the film isn't protected by tightly wrapped paper is while it's in the camera. So unless you are

somehow allowing some sort of liquid to drip in there (or in the magazine) I think it's much more likely that something happened at the processing lab.

 

At one time I used to handle a lot of troubleshooting of film/processing problems. If I had to handle this, first thing I'd do is examine with a magnifier to see if there's an obvious residual material or disruption

of the film surface. If residue, can it be cleaned off, and that sort of thing. And if it IS a foreign material then it's probably possible to guess where it came from. If you can clean it off, then it almost certainly

happened after the wet part of the processing (otherwise it would have come off in the processor).

 

Now if I didn't find anything obvious, I'd start looking at the pattern of the spots (you indicated that it happens frequently). For example, do they always happen near one end or on one side of the film? (I don't

know what this would mean, but it certainly could give a clue about where to investigate.)

 

You say this doesn't happen with your 35mm film, only on the 120, so I wonder, do you get them processed at the same place? And if so, is it the same machine machine used? If it happens very frequently, like

on every roll, id try a different lab to see if they get it. Just some ideas on how to proceed. But my bets would be on the processor as the culprit, and I'm kinda guessing it will be something that you can wipe

off.

<p>My guess is also a processing fault. Doesn't look anything like moisture. Use a different lab.</p>

<p>I would send a roll (same camera, outdoor conditions, etc) to some place like North Coast Photo that uses a "dip-and-dunk" processing system, and see if you get the same results. IMO, this is a processor issue.</p>

Thank you all for the responses! I do not use refrigerated

or frozen film so that's definitely not an issue. I clean out

the bronica regularly so there's no moisture in the actual

film back as far as i know. I'm going to agree that this is

a processing issue which really sucks. Some pretty good

shots of mine got ruined, but alas, the price you pay with

film I suppose. I did inspect the negatives and while

there appears to be a "crust" where the spots are it

doesn't rub off. They are in different places around the

film and even in spots on the film where an exposure

wasn't taken. I'm going to dry a different lab, it's a shame

cause the Darkroom gives a good deal!

Hi, it may be worth talking to the lab again with the details you have now. Perhaps the management doesn't know this sort

of thing is going on and can make some sort of procedural change (that should have been obvious) to eliminate the

problem. Personally I probably wouldn't use them again for important work, but given that the price is important to you,

you might be willing to give them another chance.

 

Regarding the residue, I think there's a good chance that the negatives may be fine underneath it. More than likely it can

be removed with the right solvent. If you have any, I'd try a little film cleaner on an appropriate cloth, otherwise a little

alcohol. If these don't take itoff, water likely will. I'm not up on current final treatments, but if you end up soaking the film,

then sort of fungus-inhibiting final rinse is probably advisable (in the older days, maybe 20 years or so, all C-41 films

required a final bath in a formaldehyde-containing stabilizer. Best of luck.

<p>Just in case you have fungus growing on your film, you could sacrifice a roll and look at the emulsion. It should be totally smooth, of course. But fungus likes to grow in gelatin (on unprocessed or processed film).</p>

 

<p>I've heard good things about The Darkroom lab, but those spots look like undissolved chemicals or sludge in the chemicals to me. Maybe they aren't running their machine enough or aren't cleaning it enough. It does happen.</p>

It does have the texture/look of undissolved chemicals I

think you may be right. I'll try cleaning one of the

negatives i dont care too much about with water and see

what happens. Weird thing is the darkroom does a great

job on all my 35mm rolls, both color and black and

white. Only the medium format film has been a problem

occasionally. I'm going to try North Coast or Precision

I'm pretty sure

So I talked with the Darkroom and they looked back over

my photos and are convinced it's a moisture issue. They

said "We went through several of your albums and that is

not from chemical solution dried on the negatives.  It is

due to moisture and we have seen this in the past and

are very familiar with the appearance of moisture

effecting film.   The spot are pretty much like mold on

the film."

Judging from the fact that if it was a processing issue

there would be more people with this problem. I think

they know what they are doing.So it brings me back to my question how can I avoid moisture from getting into the film back? Is there any way to prevent this?

Hi, it sounds like they are saying that it's mold (or fungus) on the film, which I have no experience with, but I guess it sounds plausible. But

I'm almost always skeptical of things until I get a little more evidence or plausible explanation. For example, why isn't it on your 35mm film?

If it's exposed to the same conditions, the only obvious difference is in the backing paper; should we expect that the backing paper absorbs

moisture (more so than the gelatin?) and aids the growth of fungus?

 

I think I might try two things: 1) in one day, tear open the foil wrap of a roll of 120 film, load and shoot the roll, then ship it for processing. 2)

shoot a second roll normally and send to a different processing lab. The first item is to see if you can do things before fungus has a

chance to grow. The second item is, obviously, to see if another lab has the same problems.

 

If it IS fungus growth in the 120 film, and moisture is still the suspect, you might try either plastic tape around the seam where the film

magazine attaches, or perhaps even try to shoot with the camera (mostly) in a plastic bag with the lens poking out a hole, etc. Something

else that I'm wondering about - if humidity is high enough to grow fungus on film, is the Bronica also carrying fungus/spores that can easily

transfer to film?

 

Last comment, I promise, Kodak used to have a related document, I don't find it on their website, but a copy of AE-22 is here

http://photo-net-production-static.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/attachments/007tlK-17401484.pdf

Thank you for all of your insight! I'm sending a roll off to

a different lab soon so we shall see. I am pretty sure I

will get similar results but it's worth a shot. I am also

switching from Ektar to a new pack of Paortra 160 so we

will see if maybe that helps as well.

<p>Mold looks like stringy things. Moisture usually makes it look mottled. </p>

Hi There

 

Was interested to see if you found out what the issue was? I recently put a couple of test rolls through my Bronica SQ and got back these images (interesting that you have had the same issue with the SQA) . I put two rolls through the camera and both rolls have the purple marks you are talking about. The first roll I thought could be a moisture issue as I had left the camera in a bag in my car over a cool night and though moisture could of got to the negative as my camera did not come with a darkslide.

 

The second roll was still wrapped in plastic wraping before I used it but was also in my bag in the car overnight - I shot this second roll in one session so was not in the camera overnight or for an extended period of time.

 

Some frames have no issue, others have the purple marks and some have a blotted kinda texture.

 

Any help would be great

 

 

 

 

I develop film at home and have tam idea on what might cause this problem:

- I got this problem when not using a pre soak, with a two year old rollei digibase in a Jobo atl. maybe the short development time and older developer caused the anti halidation layer to be not fully be removed. I didn’t experience the problem when using slightly more (10%) chemicals in the tank than recommended in combination with a pre wash of the film before development. Therefore I guess it is a development issue.

 

I develop film at home and have tam idea on what might cause this problem:

What film are we looking at?

Negative or transparency?

 

The black blob looks like a lump of crud landed on the film before exposure.

 

The other marks look like chemical contamination of the film during development.

 

Air bells or other processing marks usually have a more diffuse edge.

Edited December 30, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

What film are we looking at?

Negative or transparency?

 

The black blob looks like a lump of crud landed on the film before exposure.

 

The other marks look like chemical contamination of the film during development.

 

Air bells or other processing marks usually have a more diffuse edge.

 

Thanks for your response. This is a negative developed in 2y old rollei digibase. Your theory about crud that landed on the film makes sense since there was some crud inside the developer as a result of aging and I unfortunately didn’t filter it. The chance of Chemical contamination would be low since the Jobo system I used was cleaned before and this was the first development of freshly made developer. Maybe the age of the developer could have played a part?

Ps after scanning the film on a coolscan 8000 small purple spots appeared to be on a lot of locations also when slightly more developer was used. This problem occurred both on fresh Portra and 400h film.

This article suggests that purple spots could be caused by inadequate bleaching:

Photomicrography - Color Negative Film Processing Errors | Olympus LS

This article suggests that purple spots could be caused by inadequate bleaching:

I don't know how much C41 processing the author of that Olympus article has done, but a lack of cyan dye would definitely not be caused by under-bleaching. The dyes are formed by the colour developer alone. The Bleach and fix steps simply remove the opaque silver image that's formed during development. And the accompanying illustration is definitely not typical of under-bleached film.

 

An exhausted bleach bath will result in an overall fog that might well be patchy, but not distinctly spotty. The (brownish) silver masking left behind prevents the correct colour from being scanned or printed, but re-bleaching and fixing (or blixing) will usually return the film to normal.

 

Poor bleaching never, IME, results in small distinct spots, and certainly not purple ones. Neither will an anti-halation backing be left in small spots on the film. It either dissolves away completely, or remains as an overall tint.

 

Besides, a purple or magenta-coloured spot in the positive would be caused by a greenish-coloured spot on the negative.

 

OTOH, contaminants, such as undissolved chemical powders, metal-filings, spatter of liquids on the dry film, suspened debris in processing solutions, etc. will almost certainly cause spots on the image.

 

And FWIW, how old is that Olympus article? Because who uses 35mm negative film for photomicrography these days?

Edited February 2, 2021 by rodeo_joe|1