Any techniques to superimpose color film with black and white film.

Hi everyone,

I was wondering is it possible/what would be the best way to superimpose color film with black and white film?

You might be able to create a direct positive monochrome image, make a sandwich with a color slide and copy. Probably trial and error, recording your attempts till you get it to work. Likely easier with digital and post.

Hi everyone,

I was wondering is it possible/what would be the best way to superimpose color film with black and white film?

Hi, I don't know what your purpose is, but fyi a first step in the development of a color film is to develop a b&w (silver) image. This silver image is removed by a "bleach" and fixer as part of the process.

 

If you were to process your own color negative film, the normal sequence is 1) developer (produces both a silver image plus a color dye image), 2) bleach (converts the silver image to a silver halide), and 3) fix (dissolves the silver halide away). The final result is that only a color dye image is left.

 

If you were to simply skip the bleach step you would be left with both a color dye image and the original b&w silver image. Which is sorta what you are asking about. Variations of this are supposedly done in some motion pictures under the name of "bleach bypass." Apparently, though, they don't completely skip the bleach, but rather reduce the time in bleach to get some control over the "strength" of the effect. Anyway, this would be the easiest way to get a combined color image plus b&w image, assuming that you process it yourself.

You might be able to create a direct positive monochrome image, make a sandwich with a color slide and copy. Probably trial and error, recording your attempts till you get it to work. Likely easier with digital and post.

Thank you Sandy for your help, I'll make sure to keep my notebook handy!

Hi, I don't know what your purpose is, but fyi a first step in the development of a color film is to develop a b&w (silver) image. This silver image is removed by a "bleach" and fixer as part of the process.

 

If you were to process your own color negative film, the normal sequence is 1) developer (produces both a silver image plus a color dye image), 2) bleach (converts the silver image to a silver halide), and 3) fix (dissolves the silver halide away). The final result is that only a color dye image is left.

 

If you were to simply skip the bleach step you would be left with both a color dye image and the original b&w silver image. Which is sorta what you are asking about. Variations of this are supposedly done in some motion pictures under the name of "bleach bypass." Apparently, though, they don't completely skip the bleach, but rather reduce the time in bleach to get some control over the "strength" of the effect. Anyway, this would be the easiest way to get a combined color image plus b&w image, assuming that you process it yourself.

Hi Bill, Thank you very much for your advice I'm going to try it!

Years ago we made color prints by projection printing using an enlarger. For critical work we often needed to make contrast adjustments. This was no small task in that era. We could make a black & white film by contact printing the color negative onto black & white film. We could make either a positive or a negative black & white film copy. This copy was exposed in such a way that the result was a very light (low density) copy. When the contract copy film was made, a thin milky sheet of plastic (diffusion sheet) was sandwiched between the color negative and the film to be exposed. This diffusion sheet served to make the image on the copy film a tiny bit larger than the original and softer as to its focus. The final copy film was called an un-sharp mask.

 

During the printing cycle we sandwiched this mask and the original color negative together. If the un-sharp mask was a negative image, it increased contrast. If the un-sharp mask was a positive image, it decreased contrast. These manipulation techniques are a lost art in today’s digital era.

Not what you ask, but it reminds me of something that Kodak says is possible, even though most wouldn't think of it.

 

It is possible to develop color negative film as black and white, make prints from it

(complicated by the orange mask, but other than that), then bleach it back to silver bromide

again, then use the color developer, as usual, along with the rest of the steps.

 

The result is that you can get black and white prints, even if some other things go wrong.

 

This is meant for those "it has to work" situations.

 

Otherwise, it isn't so obvious what superimpose means in this case.

Hand colouring? Like they used to do in the C19th and early C20th.

 

But today, PhotoShop or any other decent image editor would be the weapon of choice.

Not what you ask, but it reminds me of something that Kodak says is possible, even though most wouldn't think of it.

 

It is possible to develop color negative film as black and white, make prints from it

(complicated by the orange mask, but other than that), then bleach it back to silver bromide

again, then use the color developer, as usual, along with the rest of the steps.

 

The result is that you can get black and white prints, even if some other things go wrong.

 

This is meant for those "it has to work" situations.

 

Otherwise, it isn't so obvious what superimpose means in this case.

This was the recommended treatment for C-22 and C-41 negative color film accidently processed as black & white. This salvage method yielded a substandard color negative.

Sean

 

I have no idea what you mean by "superimpose color film with black and white film". It might be a bit more clear for you to describe what you are trying to achieve.

 

I suspect that your objective is to have a final image that is an overall monochrome, but with some elements in color. That's relatively easy to achieve digitally.

 

A very old technique was to shoot monochrome film and make a monochrome print, and than selectively add color using either pencils or oil paints - that's actually a lot of fun, but it takes quite a bit of practice to become a real master of the process, and to achieve the best results, you have to have the right materials. For example, the print generally should be made on fiber-based paper with a matte surface.

It was used for "masking" as alan says.