Benedictine Monastery

The Mount Baldy Zen Center, which Cohen joined in ‘94, likely had a different vibe :) and would have yielded very different pics from the Benedictine monastery. It would also probably be more rare for a Jewish guy like Cohen to join a Benedictine monastery than a Zen one.

The photos I took at Christ in Desert in New Mexico did look similar to the photos I've seen from Zen Mountain Center in Northern California. Adobe, simplicity, guys in robes... :)

Someone posed on the stairs, to me, would only detract from the scene and look obvious. The feeling of peace I noticed when the print was in the fixer would be gone, and the model would become the center. And sadly, I was there again last week but the construction/demolition had begun and chain link fencing surrounded the entire site.

 

The monastery building will become the centerpiece apartment of 250 upscale apartments built on the property.

Perhaps there's a zen lesson in that.

Photographers, like everybody else, mostly lose instants."The one that got away, as fishermen talk about"

Perhaps there's a zen lesson in that.

 

Photographers, like everybody else, mostly lose instants."

Actually, the instant isn't really lost. It's there, captured and preserved in the photograph.

A camera is (in a sense) a time trap. It has the unique ability to temporarily capture and preserve a specific moment in time and space until that moment can be transferred to more permanent storage (print, digital file, negative, etc.). A photograph of Lincoln meeting with his generals, comes to mind. The meeting took place in 1860 something.

The actual physical moment is long gone. But the photograph of that moment is still around.

Ansel made many photos and few seem to be memorable, like that alleged photo of Lincoln and his generals...that we evidently can't remember.

There is no such thing as a "physical moment." Memories are inherently transient, which is one of the reasons people can't remember who it was that ,maybe-made some memory they guess they once had, or the purported location of that dubious memory. Probably wasn't Ansel...the Benedictine monastery is 13 miles off the main highway, too far and too rough for his vehicle (13miles of dirt that's impassible even for jeeps after rain makes mud)..

Cohen, a Jew since birth, continued Zen practice most of his life. Minor White, important photographer (google him), was a student of Zen, Gurdjieff, and Roman Catholicism.

For me, the best photographs tell a story. Moments aren't as fulfilling.

I have a book of Ansel Adams's Yosemite. While he's not my favorite photographer, I have profound respect for him and what he accomplished and find most of the photos in the book (well over a hundred) memorable.

Like most things in life, our memories aren't perfect. Nevertheless, memory is a thing. It's real. It often works.

Cohen, a Jew since birth, continued Zen practice most of his life.

What's the point in repeating this? I'd seriously like to know. What does it mean to you that "Cohen, a Jew since birth, continued Zen practice most of his life"?

 

What's the point in repeating this? I'd seriously like to know. What does it mean to you that "Cohen, a Jew since birth, continued Zen practice most of his life"?

ANSWER:

One casual assumption here has been that Cohen was somehow more naturally able to appreciate Zen practice (not a religion) than Benedictine monastic practice.

That's only a speculation. I'll just mention that I've met monks who fully embraced Benedictine practice, despite (or perhaps especially because) they were raised Buddhist, in Vietnam. Jews as well as Catholics and Buddhists are often avowed atheists (not big news).

Jews are members of tribes, rarely converts (tho my ex wife converted from Baptist). Most of my social friends have been Jews, some sat za-zen at San Francisco Zen Center. And yes, I've attended Bat Mitzvah and Bar Mitzvah but I lack the patience to sit Zen. I'm officially Episcopal. I have a dozen Navajo friends, some of them Native American Church, but they're on lockdown and don't have reliable email/phones.

One casual assumption here has been that Cohen was somehow more naturally able to appreciate Zen practice

If you’re going off what I said, you’re misinterpreting me. I said it would be more rare for a Jew like Cohen to join a Benedictine monastery. I didn’t say a word about his natural ability to appreciate one thing or another. I was talking about practice,

Would you say some of your best friends are Jewish? It sure sounds like it.

In any case, this photo has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Leonard Cohen except for Mike’s free association to a song of his on viewing the photo. That would have been a good place to let the reference rest, as Mike did when he went on to critique the photo instead of Cohen!

If you’re going off what I said, you’re misinterpreting me. I said it would be more rare for a Jew like Cohen to join a Benedictine monastery. I didn’t say a word about his natural ability to appreciate one thing or another. I was talking about practice,"

Only you as an individual know what you were "talking about." It's not important either way.

 

"Would you say some of your best friends are Jewish? It sure sounds like it."

 

In fact, yes: My closest friends have always been Jewish...that includes my long term girlfriend and my two "best friends" ...who are photographers.

 

"... this photo has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Leonard Cohen except for Mike’s free association to a song of his on viewing the photo. That would have been a good place to let the reference rest, as Mike did when he went on to critique the photo instead of Cohen!

That "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" pronouncement refers to your personal interpretation...to which you're fully entitled. .

People interested in Benedictine monastery should Google "Rule of Benedict." The rule itself is compelling.

Christ in Desert monastery brothers were refurbishing the library floor when I last visited. Adobe clay with blood of ox...which explains the dark floor, even if it's not painted.

This may be of interest: A profoundly beautiful place.

christindesert.org

That "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" pronouncement refers to your personal interpretation...to which you're fully entitled. .

No. It refers to the photo.

It's an objective fact that the photo has nothing to do with Leonard Cohen. That in no way prevents anyone from associating it with Leonard Cohen for a variety of reasons and it doesn't prevent the photo from bringing a Leonard Cohen song to mind for someone looking at it. That's in the imagination of the viewer. And I have no issue with folks using their imaginations in reacting to a photo. I do it as I suspect most of us do. I'm also in favor of recognizing it as such! What I am saying is that bringing Leonard Cohen in has everything to do with an individual's response and association and nothing to do with the photo per se.

[ATTACH=full]1325010[/ATTACH] There's a lovely old monastery near here in Tucson, recently threatened with demolition, but has been 'saved' to the extent of the main building being re-purposed for offices, and the surrounding six acres planned student housing for wealthy 'trustafarians'. This small stairway appealed to me, and wondering how it looks to others, with emphasis on what might improve it.

 

Nikon FE, 35mm lens, FP4 at iso 125. Developed in HC110 Dil H for 10:45m, printed using Ilford PQ Universal on Ilford MG4 paper.

Eric, I've been to your area of the US only twice, and never visited this monastery. North Miami Beach, where I spent most of my time growing up includes what is billed as the "Ancient Spanish Monastery." Ir was originally built in Europe starting in the late 11th century, and the Order living here was the Cistercian. In the 1920s, William Randolph Hearst financed its disassembly piece by piece and rebuilt in NMB. Its Patron Saint was St. Bernard de Clairveau.

Eric, I've been to your area of the US only twice, and never visited this monastery. North Miami Beach, where I spent most of my time growing up includes what is billed as the "Ancient Spanish Monastery." Ir was originally built in Europe starting in the late 11th century, and the Order living here was the Cistercian. In the 1920s, William Randolph Hearst financed its disassembly piece by piece and rebuilt in NMB. Its Patron Saint was St. Bernard de Clairveau.

Interesting, Michael - thanks. When we have more freedom to travel, we'd like to visit more old missions here in the S.W. There's another great one, Tumacacori, just South of here only some 30 miles. We've been there several times and I've photographed it extensively.

No. It refers to the photo.

 

It's an objective fact that the photo has nothing to do with Leonard Cohen. That in no way prevents anyone from associating it with Leonard Cohen for a variety of reasons and it doesn't prevent the photo from bringing a Leonard Cohen song to mind for someone looking at it. That's in the imagination of the viewer. And I have no issue with folks using their imaginations in reacting to a photo. I do it as I suspect most of us do. I'm also in favor of recognizing it as such! What I am saying is that bringing Leonard Cohen in has everything to do with an individual's response and association and nothing to do with the photo per se.

We're close to agreement. Except...there is no such thing as "the photo per se." The photo exists in your perception and mine.

We're close to agreement. Except...there is no such thing as "the photo per se." The photo exists in your perception and mine.

The photo exists ... and ... we perceive it. Of course there's a photo per se. Otherwise, we'd have nothing to share and/or respond to differently.

And whether there's a photo per se is not the point. The point is the photo has nothing to do with Leonard Cohen except in someone's imagination.

You and I might disagree on how we interpret the photo (Leonard Cohen-ish or not Leonard Cohen-ish) but we're in big trouble if we can't at least agree there's a photo there.

Sorry, but I'm not a believer in you get to have your set of facts and I get to have mine. Opinions, yes. Interpretations, yes. Facts, no. Photos, no.

The photo is not just perceived. It is.

I'll put it another way.

There's a difference in kind between these two statements.

1) "It's a photo of steps."

2) "It's a photo that makes me think of a Leonard Cohen song."

If you’re going off what I said, you’re misinterpreting me. I said it would be more rare for a Jew like Cohen to join a Benedictine monastery. I didn’t say a word about his natural ability to appreciate one thing or another. I was talking about practice,

/QUOTE]

 

Questions:

 

You claim to have been "talking about practice." Are you familiar with Zen and Benedictine practice?

 

Have you actually spent time with monks (or sisters) who "appreciate one thing or another" ?

 

Have you ever talked with "a Jew like Cohen"? Or with a Zen practitioner?

Yes, no, and yes.

Again, though, you seem to have misunderstood me. I’m on a very narrow road here, strictly and limitedly saying that it would be more rare for a Jew to join a Benedictine order Than to practice Zen. You seem to want to turn this into something bigger about either practice. I don’t know why.

1) Though I am familiar with Zen practice, that’s not the way I was using the word “practice” in what you quoted. I was separating practice from theory more generally. I said it would be more rare for a Jew like Cohen to join a Benedictine monastery. You responded by talking about Cohen’s “natural abilities to appreciate” different sorts of practices. What I said was that, in practice, Jews don’t join Benedictine monasteries as much as they may adopt or move toward Zen practice. You responded theoretically about the appreciation of different disciplines, not their practice. I was merely saying that someone might be very open to appreciating the Benedictine order, very open to your theoretical, which would have nothing to do with their joining that order in practice.

2) Why are you asking if I’ve spent time with monks? I said nothing about monks. I said Cohen and other Jews might well appreciate many things, like Benedictine orders, without joining them themselves.

3) Yes. I’m Jewish myself and have talked with many folks who are lovingly Known as Jewboos. I was, as a matter of fact, present at a few of their Bar Mitzvahs decades before they’d likely even heard of Zen. I’ve sat in on retreats, know a few authors on the subject, and enjoy spending time with them. I appreciate their beliefs and practices though I have little interest in practicing any of it myself.

Very good. We seem to differ mostly about "absolutes." I don't think we've touched on any absolutes here, but we have played with some interesting spins.

As to the "absolute" image we may both be addressing, I think there's a lot more potential in post processing...but the real limits are up to the photographer...and to the imagination of the viewer.