D850 vs Z7

Nothing looking too exciting right now in the near future for Z: No long macro, no long zoom:

[ATTACH=full]1319444[/ATTACH]

Mary, you have forgotten about this updated roadmap from last month:

Nikon Z-Mount Lens Roadmap

 

The road map you have is from last year and is out of date. Nikon swapped the releases between the 20mm/f1.8 S and 24mm/f1.8 S. The 24mm initially slated for 2020 is already out, while the 20mm is postponed to 2020.

 

You can find a PDF for the road map, updated in October 2019, here:

https://www.nikonusa.com/Images/CPCAssets/mirrorless-rethink/refresh/pdf/NIKKOR-Z-Lens-Lineup-Expansion.pdf

 

There will be several long zooms by 2021.

Anyone know if making a 200mm 2.8 PF could make a lightweight macro?

 

My guess: no.

 

PF elements allow the long telephotos to be much more compact that conventional lenses. However 180/200mm f/2.8 lenses are already quite compact, you might get it down to the size of a 135/2 lens, is that enough to be worthwhile?

 

Also, I'm not sure if PF lenses would be a good fit for macro lenses. The primary design considerations for macros tends to be for high contrast and resolution, flat field and low distortion. Compactness and weight is usually well down the priority list so PF elements may not be much use - they tend to have lower contrast and are more prone to flare, although they are effective in controlling CA.

Mary, you have forgotten about this updated roadmap from last month:

Nikon Z-Mount Lens Roadmap

Thanks. I did think that the one I uploaded did not look quite right. ;) Since we are already at the end of 2019, perhaps 2021 would come up sooner than we think! :)

I'm currently using a D700 with several AF-S lens'. I want to get a new camera body that will perform better in low light (improved ISO range) and have better resolution than my current camera. I shoot mostly portraits, sports, and concerts.

I've researched both camera bodies over the last couple of weeks and would like to hear pros and cons from this forum. Both are equally priced in US at present so cost is not a factor.

 

Sports and concerts - sounds as if high ISO performance matters. Perhaps it would be better to compare the D750 with the Z6.

The bad news: I was told they do not have a firmware upgrade for this lens, that the "whoever" told me over the phone was mistaken.

Bummer! Sorry that didn't work out for you. That's a truly bizarre offer from Sigma though.

I would gladly swap mine out for this if it autofocuses with the Z system.

I don't have access to a Z6 or Z7 and hence can't check the Sigma 150/2.8 OS out for you. This thread Results of trying some older Sigma lenses with the Z 7: Nikon Z Mirrorless Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review seems to indicate that the lens might work after a firmware update - though problems are reported when using the focus shift feature of the Z7. FWIW, here is a compatibility list provided by Sigma: Sigma releases lens compatibility lists for the Nikon Z7 and Canon EOS R - DIY Photography

Bummer! Sorry that didn't work out for you. That's a truly bizarre offer from Sigma though.

 

I don't have access to a Z6 or Z7 and hence can't check the Sigma 150/2.8 OS out for you. This thread Results of trying some older Sigma lenses with the Z 7: Nikon Z Mirrorless Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review seems to indicate that the lens might work after a firmware update - though problems are reported when using the focus shift feature of the Z7. FWIW, here is a compatibility list provided by Sigma: Sigma releases lens compatibility lists for the Nikon Z7 and Canon EOS R - DIY Photography

Thanks for the helpful links.

 

Re Sigma's compatibility list on: Sigma releases lens compatibility lists for the Nikon Z7 and Canon EOS R - DIY Photography . Despite being named as compatible, It seems the autofocus status of these two items is still unclear = as some talk-forum comments indicate that they do not autofocus. They are also on the "discontinued" list from Sigma.

• APO MACRO 150mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM
  
• APO MACRO 180mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM
  

I called Sigma but their office is closed today. So I sent an email to the person I communicated with about my 180 f3.5 macro lens. Let's see what they will say - hopefully their info would be accurate this time. I do have two of the lenses on their "compatible list": 14mm f1.8 and 20mm f1.4. They work beautifully on my Z6/Z7.

Mary,

How are you managing your m4/3 vs. FX kit?

As you know I converted 90% to m4/3. I still shoot DX for fast sports, but I was thinking of upgrading to FX for that and better IQ.

I was thinking of m4/3 + FX as a digital equivalent to 35mm + MF kit. m4/3 + DX just seems to not be enough of an IQ jump.

Mary,

How are you managing your m4/3 vs. FX kit?

As you know I converted 90% to m4/3. I still shoot DX for fast sports, but I was thinking of upgrading to FX for that and better IQ.

I was thinking of m4/3 + FX as a digital equivalent to 35mm + MF kit. m4/3 + DX just seems to not be enough of an IQ jump.

Gary, I still have my M43 system, which is working very well.

 

The main reason for my getting into Nikon Z is to explore the best route to nightsky photography. (Nikon Z also has other advantages of course which are not my immediate priority for now.) Interestingly, just last week, Peter Baumgarten who exclusively uses Olympus M43, came to present a nightsky program at my camera club. His talk was sponsored by Olympus who also came to display their best and newest onsite. His shots were good but I could see that Nikon Z - or at least FX equipment with wider and brighter lenses - could offer additional benefits and perspectives. I had a conversation with him afterwards and we talked about the lenses he used (which I later noticed are listed on his website). He said he liked to use Olympus 17mm f1.8. Translated it's 34mm f3.5 in FX. I also noted that he has a 12mm f2.0 - which becomes 24mm f4.0 in FX. Neither is wide and bright in FX talk. Then of course, like they say, it's the photographer, not the equipment.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Mary Doo

Gary, I still have my M43 system, which is working very well.

 

The main reason for my getting into Nikon Z is to explore the best route to nightsky photography. (Nikon Z also has other advantages of course which are not my immediate priority for now.) Interestingly, just last week, Peter Baumgarten who exclusively uses Olympus M43, came to present a nightsky program at my camera club. His talk was sponsored by Olympus who also came to display their best and newest onsite. His shots were good but I could see that Nikon Z - or at least FX equipment with wider and brighter lenses - could offer additional benefits and perspectives. I had a conversation with him afterwards and we talked about the lenses he used (which I later noticed are listed on his website). He said he liked to use Olympus 17mm f1.8. Translated it's 34mm f3.5 in FX. I also noted that he has a 12mm f2.0 - which becomes 24mm f4.0 in FX. Neither is wide and bright in FX talk. Then of course, like they say, it's the photographer, not the equipment.

 

Thanks Mary,

I see your specialization route for FX.

I am thinking a similar use; fast sports, and as a larger format for when I want max IQ.

Mary, thanks for doing the home work on the 150 and 180 macro lenses. I just gave my sister my Nikon 200mm f4 AFD when we got together at Thanksgiving with plans this weekend to update with the more current Sigma 180 f2.8 with a built in AF motor for stacking with my D850. Alas B&H does not have the 150 or 180mm Sigma lenses listed. It’s like they have disappeared. They are both very good lenses so I am hoping that Sigma will have new versions soon. There is a 180mm macro showing as you enter the macro section of the Sigma website and the 150 and 180 are even mentioned in writing but those two lenses do not show up when you dig deeper. The Nikon 200mm with camera body dependent AF is dated but still for sale new since I gave mine to family. I may go back to the old technology since I like long macro lenses. I wish Nikon would update this lens just so that it would be more electronically evolved even though the glass is very good. Anyway B&H is respectfully observing the sabbath today but I may call them tomorrow and ask what Sigma has planned. I don’t think I screwed up. My sister will keep the lens and i know will really enjoy it and I have immediate alternatives like my 105mm micro and my 300 mm with tubes that I am very familiar with. I hope that Sigma will come up with something long and macro in the Art series. Then I can really get snooty. Good hunting

Anyone know how the Nikon 200mm f2 VR works with tubes?

 

:)

I am thinking a similar use; fast sports, and as a larger format for when I want max IQ.

Think you may need to clarify what you really need - I know, the line between "want" and "need" is not always a clear one ;-) For fast sports, I believe D500 (10 FPS) would work in DSLR format - perhaps others in this forum can also share their knowledge. Re "larger format for max IQ", I am wondering if this is necessary? That said, since you are familiar with MFT, I think you will like mirrorless over DSLR. The Z6/Z7 and Olympus EM1 II are similar in size. Z6 shoots up to 12 FPS according to specs. But then FX may not reach as far without the DX crop factor. To be clear, Olympus M43 is very capable, especially with all the on-screen features. If I am not thinking night photography, I may not wander into Nikon Z.

Alas B&H does not have the 150 or 180mm Sigma lenses listed. It’s like they have disappeared. They are both very good lenses so I am hoping that Sigma will have new versions soon.

According to Sigma, these are old news that they no longer produce. Still not sure if they autofocus with Nikon Z6/Z7 but they work very well with Nikon DSLRs. Now I do know for sure that their 180 f3.5 does not autofocus with Z6/Z7 and there is NO firmware update.

I like long macro lenses. I wish Nikon would update this lens just so that it would be more electronically evolved even though the glass is very good.

Let's hope so. However, this is not in their plan at this time.

I hope that Sigma will come up with something long and macro in the Art series.

That would be nice. Better still if they will make an S-lens.

Anyone know how the Nikon 200mm f2 VR works with tubes?

Extension tubes are more effective with short lenses. They don't have much macro impact with long lenses. Think using closeup lenses/filters such as the Nikon 6T and Canon closeup lens work better with long lenses.

Mary I am somewhat surprised that Sigma would completely abandon the 150mm and 180mm macro lenses if that is the plan. I didn't see it coming.

I guess I should not hold my breath for something new. Macro must be out of vogue these days. Its seems the options are decreasing if you want long macro lenses.

 

Mike I am not sure if the Nikon brand extension tubes that are not electrically coupled will work with the Nikon 200mm f2 but I think the Kenko brand that are electronically coupled should. You can stack tubes. Your front element is huge so you would need to use extension tubes with your 200mm f2. I am not sure you can put a diopter on a drop in filter.

 

I have used my PN11 (52mm) tube successfully with my 80-200 AFD f2.8 zoom at 200mm and occasionally on my 300mm with diminishing returns to add magnification. You loose some light with that long an extension but it does get you closer. Of course its always on a tripod.

 

The general formula for extension tubes is (lens native magnification) + (extension tube length/focal length of lens) = new magnification, so short telephoto and normal lenses work best. I have yet to have any success with extension tubes on a 20mm wide angle lens but I understand there are folks who can make them work that way. I would never say never.

 

I use the 77mm Canon and Marumi two element diopters on the front of my 300mm f4 afs and also on my 70-200and 80-200. They are easy to carry and do a good job without steeling any light and zooming is a little easier. Back in the film days I would mount a 62mm 2 element Nikon 6T dual element close up lens on my 80-200 zoomed to 200 using a step down ring. At 200mm the vignetting was acceptable with the 62mm.

 

I am somewhat addicted to long lens macro so lots to think about if and when I change to Z mount.

I may be buying a 200mm f4 Nikor micro for the second time.

Mary I am somewhat surprised that Sigma would completely abandon the 150mm and 180mm macro lenses if that is the plan.

I am not sure if they have completely abandoned them, they just don't produce these models any more. I am hoping they (or someone) will make a long macro lens that is compatible with Nikon Z. It's a good niche to fill in where Nikon does not.

Think you may need to clarify what you really need - I know, the line between "want" and "need" is not always a clear one ;-) For fast sports, I believe D500 (10 FPS) would work in DSLR format - perhaps others in this forum can also share their knowledge.

Re "larger format for max IQ", I am wondering if this is necessary? That said, since you are familiar with MFT, I think you will like mirrorless over DSLR. The Z6/Z7 and Olympus EM1 II are similar in size. Z6 shoots up to 12 FPS according to specs. But then FX may not reach as far without the DX crop factor. To be clear, Olympus M43 is very capable, especially with all the on-screen features.

If I am not thinking night photography, I may not wander into Nikon Z.

 

he he

Since it is a hobby, not a business, it is all "want."

 

My primary system is the EM1-mk1 and mk2.

 

I use the D7200 just for sports; gym (basketball and volleyball) and field (football, soccer and lacrosse) games. It works fine, so don't need the D500.

At this point, m4/3 won't be used on the field. It is not the camera but the lens. The zoom ring of the Olympus 12-100/4 is just too stiff, compared to the light silky zoom ring on the 70-200/4. I don't know if or how much lighter the zoom ring on the 40-150/2.8 is, compared to the 12-100/4.

Also the 40-150/2.8 + EM1-mk2, ends up weighing about the same as the D7200 + 70-200/4, so there is almost zero weight savings. So if it weighs the same, why bother switching?

 

You are correct, I've gotten used to the reach of the 70-200 on a DX camera. It would be tough to give up the extra reach if I put that lens on a FX camera.

On FX, the longer 70-300 and 100-400 lenses are all slow f/5.6 or 6.3 zooms, so not well suited for night games, unless the camera has good high ISO performance.

I currently shoot at f/4 at ISO 6400. At f/5.6, I have to shoot at ISO 12800.

 

I was thinking of the D810, as a high resolution FX camera, for when I want higher resolution and IQ than m4/3.

But I don't really know if/when I will NEED that extra resolution. So high resolution FX is much more of a "want."

 

Yup, for FX, I am definitely in the F (D750/810) vs Z (Z6) dilemma. The D850 and Z7 are both above my budget.

I would like to go Z, but since FX will be a specialized camera, it does not make sense to me to spend top $$$$.

Analysis paralysis.

Analysis paralysis.

:D:D:D Gary, you will figure your "wants" out in good time. :D:D:D Btw, Z6 is much less expensive than D810.

If you like what you’ve got, you might as well just go shoot with it :)

 

I don’t think full frame is really the end-all-be-all anymore. Sensors improve and even the smaller M4/3 sensors are pretty powerful these days. And there’s fast glass available that will compensate reasonably well. But since you have some FX glass and you’re talking about resolution, a good used D800 can be had very cheap these days if you keep an eye out.

Not to get off topic, no wait it was the topic, I ordered a D850 this morning.

Not to get off topic, no wait it was the topic, I ordered a D850 this morning.

Congratulations. After getting my Z6 last year, I added a D850 early in 2019 before my trip to Antarctica. Each one of those has its advantages. The D850 is arguably one of the very best Nikon DSLR ever made, and now you are paying a few hundred dollars less than I did 11 months ago, and there is a "free" MB-D18 that comes with it.

 

Consider mirrorless when that technology is fully mature in the coming years.

:D:D:D Gary, you will figure your "wants" out in good time. :D:D:D Btw, Z6 is much less expensive than D810.

 

And the Z6 is LIGHTER than the D810.

That is one of things about the D8xx that I don't like, the weight.

Especially now that I am getting used to the EM1.

Don't blame you. I thought the same way. Not only the lighter weight, also the WYSIWYG screen.

also the WYSIWYG screen

and you don´t get this with a D810?

and you don´t get this with a D810?

Mirrorless uses EVF (electronic viewfinder). You see the photo and can change the exposure component on the fly to see exactly how the exposure would be before shooting. You see how the final digital image looks like beforehand.