Leica M3 vs M4

What is the better of the two pluses and minuses?

Mitch:

 

M3: Single or double stroke, no meter, slow loading, 0.91 finder, workhorse. 50 frameline always visible with 90 and 135 as needed. No wide angle framelines.

 

M4: Single stroke, no meter, quickload, 0.72 finder, workhorse, framelines depending on model, buy all have 35, 50, 90 and 135. Later models have paired framelines like M6.

 

M3 is generally considered better for fast, medium to long lenses. (50 Noctilux, 75 Summilux, 90 Summicron, 135 Elmarit).

 

M4 is generally a better choice for use with 35 lenses.

 

Try both and see what you like. It is more personal preference.

 

Cheers.

 

Mark J.

<<M4: Single stroke, no meter, quickload, 0.72 finder, workhorse, framelines depending on model, buy all have 35, 50, 90 and 135. Later models have paired framelines like M6.>>

 

Not true. All M4's have paired framelines only for 35/135. No M4's have framelines for 28 or 75 unless they were installed afterwards. If you are referring to the M4-P, it and the M4-2 have much more in common mechanically to the M6 than to the M4, which is a masterpiece of craftsmanship. However this is a double-edged sword because the M4's many more internal adjustment points makes it more sensitive to the skill of whoever services it.

I really, really like my M3 but I've tried out an M4 and if I had the loot I'd definitely get one to fit a 35mm lens on.

For a shooter, any variation of the M4 is just ideal - quick loading, quick rewind, all the frames (on the M4-P, or can be added on the M4 and M4-2). And despite the "poor construction" as compared to the M3, they seem to work well once serviced.

I have used both and I have found the M4 to be the better shooter.

 

The M4 is faster to load/rewind and you can use a 35 with the .72 finder. The M4

finder doesn't flare and is uncluttered. The build quality is amazing.

 

The M3 is slower to load and rewind. The .91 finder is great for the 50/90/135, but

the lack of a 35 frameline is a real loss. IMHO I'm also not a big fan of the round

cornered 50mm framelines. The finder doesn't flare and the build quality is amazing.

 

Neither has a meter, but you can get an MR meter that couples to the shutter speed

dial cheaply.

 

My choice would be the M4, especially if it was the only body I owned.

 

feli

My Choice............<div></div>

Best solution: get both! :-) After 25+ years with first a double-stroke M3 from 1954 (with "old" speeds), then a single stroke M3 from 1959, I succumbed and bought an early M4 from 1967, which I use as a second body. I love the M3, especially the big, bright VF. For years I used it with the 50mm DR summicron, 135 (rarely), and a goggled-version 35 summaron. Now I keep both Ms in the bag. The M4 has a 35mm summicron on it, and the M3 a 90mm Elmarit. I don't use the 50mm much anymore. I am getting used to the slight differences between these two cameras. At first, the swivelling plastic end tip on the advance lever of the M4 seemed weird; now I don't evven notice it. Also, the more "cluttered" M4 viewfinder has taken some getting used to, especially when I decide to use the 50mm lens, since the 50mm field of view doesn't take up the entire finder. Both cameras are solid as a rock and with care should last forever (assuming they still make film at that time :-))

I should add, in response to Feli's comment re: loading and rewinding: I never found the M3 loading to be that much trouble, once I got used to it. I've tried it with both the original spool and the so-called "quick-load" mechanism (which isn't that much quicker), and it's never been problematic for me. The rewind knob takes a few more seconds than a crank, but I added an after-market rewind crank to mine. The M4 loading is very quick. However, I've found it necessary to make a slight crimp or fold in the leader end to be sure the film actually advances properly.

I added a rewind crank to my M2, which works great. It's not so much the rewinding

as the threading of the film on to the spool and then dropping it in that is slower than

an M4 etc. It's not a big deal if you are just shooting at a leisurely pace, but when you

are under the gun (shooting at an event or something) it can be an annoyance. My

solution was to get an extra spool and keep it preloaded in my bag, That way I pretty

much just drop it in like on my M6TTL.

 

feli

Other than the frame lines and viewfinder magnification, there's no practical difference.

Taking a chance on repeating myself. I have both. My most used

lens is the 35 mm asph. Therefore, I prefer [drum roll please],

the M3. Cover the frameline illuminator and you have a

non-crapped-up finder which is as accurate for 35 mm as the

frame lines in any other M.

 

I prefer the DS M3, which is what I kept. That is just personal

preference and not the result of some higher knowledge. ;<)

 

Art

Taking a chance on repeating myself. I have both. My most used

lens is the 35 mm asph. Therefore, I prefer [drum roll please],

the M3. Cover the frameline illuminator and you have a

non-crapped-up finder which is as accurate for 35 mm as the

frame lines in any other M.

 

 

Has anyone else tried the covering up the frame line illumination window trick??

 

 

I prefer the DS M3, which is what I kept. That is just personal

preference and not the result of some higher knowledge. ;<)

 

Art

This may be a new record - OP last seen 2004 - art_karr 2005 a 25 year old thread!

 

Edit - Before coffee! 16 is obviously correct.o_O

Edited October 7, 2019 by Sandy Vongries

Time flies, except when 16 years seems like 25 ;)

@jo-dad: I have an M3 & 4-P

I honestly won't try to shoot 28mm on M4-P or 9; I get the feeling I'd need to scan the four corners of the VF. Looking for the M3's VF borders does exactly the same to me; i.e. I don't see them all at once. Maybe somebody else is less worried about slamming the VF rear glass on their contact lens or eye and comfortable; I am not.

Suggestion: Put empty M3 with rear flap open and makeshift groundglass in the film window on a tripod in front of a bookshelf. check if the VF frame matches your 35mm and how comforatable you are, getting your eye there.

What works for landscapes might not exactly work well for street or other kinds of action photography.

Everybody is different.

90mm wireframe finders for 4x5" are on my "No way!" list too.

JDM, serendipity, or just a trick of fate. I first saw this clip when I was doing a grad dip in theology course. It was on the TV the night before our lecture (I was staying at University House at the ANU - the subject was Christology). The lecture was on resurrection. You may find this blasphemous, but this clip (I saw the whole movie) was prescient, and, in a strange way, I found it, if I dare say this, inspiring. It was a re-writing of the Christian story (as many have done. Just look at, there are so many, Tolkien, Jesus of montreal, blah, blah. It goes on). And I graduate in early December. My spouse and her son accompany me . Already booked. May have some photos from it. Thank you JDW - isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen. Thank you. Regards, Arthur (apiarist1). I know I'm off track, but give me some latitude.

And I should say, to get back to the original post. I have two M3's, one DS, one a SS. I prefer the DS. It has a strange feel with DS. Can't put words to it. But it is so smooth. I know we genuflect at the alter of Oscar Barnack, and his successors. But, a smoothness that is breathtaking. I'd go for an M3. Live in the past. It's good. Regards, Arthur (apiarist1)

Shop "hands- & eye on"! They were great, are desirable but when your RF unit needs a resilvering, you 'll miss something and won't understand happier M3 owners, although your specimen would be shootable.

You may find this blasphemous

Not I. Although I read a lot of early Christian church history (more interested in Rome than the church, though), I am strictly a "let's put the X back into Xmas" person ;)

 

I commend The Day the Earth Stood Still movie (the 1951 original (LINK), not the Keanu Reeves remake) to you for unacknowledged (indeed, unconvincingly denied) Christian symbolic content

I commend The Day the Earth Stood Still movie (the 1951 original (LINK)...

I prefer this version... no commercials:

 

The. Day. The. Earth. Stood. Still[ 1951] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

JDW, I have my own copy. 'Klaatu barada nikto' makes a wonderful trivia night question. You might remember the scene where Michael Rennie takes 'young Bobby' to see the space ship and exposits on 'inertia' and 'advanced atomic power'. He is goaded by a fellow who has what appears to be a folding camera around his neck, which I've never been able to identify. I'll watch it again. Probably a Kodak.

With regard to M3 and M4, I bought my two M4 cameras new from Willougbys ( paid $450 or each with 50mm Summicron included.a lot of money back then) and then later bought a mint used M3 single stroke for $180. I enjoy using both cameras and never felt the urge to upgrade. My wife bought an M5, which she considers the best camera ever made. According to one of my late very good friends who was a Leitz trained optical mechanic and third generation of his family to work at Leitz Wezlar, the M5 was to be the revolutionary rf camera and Leitz sparred nothing in terms of build quality. Unfortunately, it failed at the market place. With the M6 and thereafter, cost cutting measures were introduced.

I find both M3 and M4 very comfortable cameras to use for all focal lengths up to 135mm. External 35mm finder works fine with M3. (About 25 yrs ago, a friend sold me a 35mm Summicron with googles cheap to use with M3)

If had to settle on just one, it would be the M4, only because it would be one less accessory to carry.

Depends on your intended use. Low light, with 50 M3. Low light with 35 M4. Me I'm a lefty so I use an M4-2 with bottom Rapidwinder and 35. Portrait work I'd be using the M3 with a 90. 135 I'm over to an old Leicaflex. For shutter speeds below 1/30th I prefer the M3, it is much smoother than the M4-2 which has steel gears for motor drive durability and I am able to avoid camera shake. I don't worry about film loading speed.