Folding Rangefinders

I have a bit of an itch that comes and goes for some type of folder as a smaller/more portable MF camera. I know these are all over the place in quality, but am mostly looking for the following:

 

1. Coupled rangefinder

 

2. Good quality coated lens-by "good quality" I basically mean a Tessar or equivalent, or better(preferably no 3 elements). I'm not super caught up on speed, especially since I've shot with a lot of Tessar and Tessar-type lenses and know that they really need to be at f/8 or so.

 

3. Automated film counting

 

4. 120 film(I don't want to deal with hacking a 620 camera to work, although if it's something simple like using a 620 spool on take-up, I can deal with it)

 

5. 6x6 is my preference, although I see some in 6x9 and I see some merit to that size(I've never shot it, but the film area advantage is appealing).

 

I've mostly looked at the Super Ikonta line, and it looks like the either the III or IV would suit me. The 532/16 would seem perfect aside from the fact that I don't like only getting 11 frames on a roll.

 

Aside from those models, are there any others I should consider? Are there any particular merits or disadvantages to the ones I've mentioned?

You've probably already been to this site, but on the off chance you haven't, it gives a decent overview of the options and some "hidden gems" among the chaff. Jurgen is one of the few definitive folder specialists around: he's a popular sales/service source for those willing to spend the money for a restored ready-to-go camera. Of course, most prefer to take their chances on garage sales and eBay at cheaper prices, but his site is still a good source of info. Over the years, he's consistently favored the Balda and Certo models. Possibly because they can be acquired cheaper than the Zeiss and refurbished to nearly equal quality, with some design pros/cons vs Ikonta.

 

Camera Archive – Certo6

A few months ago I had a very similar itch. Mamiya Six is another. So are the Super Fujica Six, Agfa Super Isolette, Welta Weltur and a number of others. Some of them may not have all the features you're after.

 

For some reason I became obsessed with the Fujica GS645 which is a 6X4.5 I also considered Fuji/Fujica's other offerings from that era including their 6X9s. None of them were folders though.

 

The GS645 has a number of quirks but it appeals to me anyway. I just kept looking and this week finally found one that wouldn't need to be shipped from Japan, wasn't ridiculously over priced and supposedly has a light tight bellows. I should have it next week. Hopefully I won't have buyers remorse.

 

I went back and forth on the need for a range finder, - coupled or not. I've gotten more comfortable with scale focusing but for a larger print I think I'd want the focus to be precise as possible.

Thanks guys-for a few reasons this is going to have to wait a little while, but I hope I can maybe get one sometime in October.

 

I actually passed on a chance at both a Super Press 23 and a pair of Koni Omegas a few weeks ago. Those satisfy the rangefinder requirement, and honestly also give me the "ideal" 6x7(I'd be wasting a lot of film that I'd probably end up throwing away with 6x9), but they're heavy beasts. If I want to shoot 6x7, I already have a relatively comprehensive RB67 system, and a Koni-Omega honestly doesn't feel that much smaller or lighter than an RB67 with a 90mm or 127mm.

 

I'd love a Mamiya 6 or 7, but they're out of my budge now. I've actually never even seen a 6 in person, but love the idea behind the "collapsible" design.

 

I had looked at the GS645 a few times, but am not wild about 645 in the first place.

 

Since I have a little while to shop before I even can buy, I'm thinking I'm going to watch for a 632/16. Even though I don't like the idea of only getting 11 exposures(I'm wondering if it's possible to use the ruby window to advance to frame 2 and then reset the film counter to get around this) but the camera seems good otherwise. I do want to be sure I get a postwar one with a coated lens-an uncoated f/2.8 lens scares me, even though I know Tessars were designed to minimize reflections without coating. I have an aversion to CZ-Jenna lenses. A synchronized shutter would be nice also.

Thanks guys-for a few reasons this is going to have to wait a little while, but I hope I can maybe get one sometime in October.

 

I actually passed on a chance at both a Super Press 23 and a pair of Koni Omegas a few weeks ago. Those satisfy the rangefinder requirement, and honestly also give me the "ideal" 6x7(I'd be wasting a lot of film that I'd probably end up throwing away with 6x9), but they're heavy beasts. If I want to shoot 6x7, I already have a relatively comprehensive RB67 system, and a Koni-Omega honestly doesn't feel that much smaller or lighter than an RB67 with a 90mm or 127mm.

 

I'd love a Mamiya 6 or 7, but they're out of my budge now. I've actually never even seen a 6 in person, but love the idea behind the "collapsible" design.

 

I had looked at the GS645 a few times, but am not wild about 645 in the first place.

 

Since I have a little while to shop before I even can buy, I'm thinking I'm going to watch for a 632/16. Even though I don't like the idea of only getting 11 exposures(I'm wondering if it's possible to use the ruby window to advance to frame 2 and then reset the film counter to get around this) but the camera seems good otherwise. I do want to be sure I get a postwar one with a coated lens-an uncoated f/2.8 lens scares me, even though I know Tessars were designed to minimize reflections without coating. I have an aversion to CZ-Jenna lenses. A synchronized shutter would be nice also.

 

I was thinking Mamiya "Six" rather than "6". The "6" is really pricey. The "six" is an older folder.

 

I'd also prefer a larger negative than 6X4.5 but I found myself frequently cropping 6X6 photos anyway. I might as well get a few extra shots on a roll.

Edited August 30, 2019 by tomspielman

I was thinking Mamiya "Six" rather than "6". The "6" is really pricey. The "six" is an older folder.

 

I'd also prefer a larger negative than 6X4.5 but I found myself frequently cropping 6X6 photos anyway. I might as well get a few extra shots on a roll.

 

Ahh, okay, didn't realize that there was a "Six." Trust me, I'd love to have a "6" and a "7" also. Maybe a year or so ago, a local camera store had a nice 7 outfit. They had it priced individually, but IIRC the body+80mm was priced around $3K and then between $1K and $2K for each lens. The whole kit probably would have been close to $10K to buy.

 

I guess my preference for 6x6 comes from using SLRs and TLRs, where not having to rotate the camera is an advantage. I've had a couple of different 645 SLRs-Bronicas and a Pentax-and never really took to them despite all of them having a prism. A small folder might be a different story, though, and having vertical by default can make things interesting(my Pen FT is that way).

Agfa Super Isolette? - RF is on the squintier, dimmer end of the rainbow. The Solinar seems decent, on par with Mamiya C stuff? Price tags might be nasty. The Soviet Iskra, inspired by it, seems to have issues with the film winding. NRCs will require restitching / new strap. No strap lugs.

Sorry, besides that one (my inherited, first real camera) I don't know the market. The Agfa feels OK, as the highly portable camera worn under your jacket all week long, to finsish a roll. Knob winding through multiple rolls per day wouldn't be my cup of tea. The RF isn't great, but helps with landscape / tourist shots.

Agfa Super Isolette? - RF is on the squintier, dimmer end of the rainbow. The Solinar seems decent, on par with Mamiya C stuff? Price tags might be nasty. The Soviet Iskra, inspired by it, seems to have issues with the film winding. NRCs will require restitching / new strap. No strap lugs.

Sorry, besides that one (my inherited, first real camera) I don't know the market. The Agfa feels OK, as the highly portable camera worn under your jacket all week long, to finsish a roll. Knob winding through multiple rolls per day wouldn't be my cup of tea. The RF isn't great, but helps with landscape / tourist shots.

 

Back in the Spring I was trying to clear out some excess camera stuff including a pre-war Isolette and a Rolleiflex case I was given a few years ago. The Isolette had the stuck focus problem that plagued seemingly all Isolettes of that generation and the Rolleiflex case needed to be restitched. The case for the Isolette was worn but the stitching was OK. The strap lugs were busted however.

 

I put a lot of work into the Isolette to get it functional. I put new lugs on its case which meant buying an inexpensive leather rivet kit. I also restitched the Rolleiflex case. I sold them both on Ebay and got maybe $60 after fees. Not sure it was really worth it. The really old Isolettes don't fetch much even if they're working and they hardly ever are.

 

The Super Isolette is definitely in more demand but I don't think prices are ridiculous. It's all relative though.

 

The one thing the Agfa really had going for it was compactness. It could fit in a decent sized pants pocket. It was slow to use though as you've mentioned. Advancing the film by slowly turning a knob while looking through a red window for a faintly printed number was not my thing. I'm sure people get fast at it after awhile.

 

Anyway the small size did spark my interest in getting another folder with some added conveniences, - like a decent film advance. It also had one unique feature that Agfa later dropped, - it could shoot either 6X4.5 or 6X6. Not ever having been that in love with a square format, I appreciated the option.

Edited August 30, 2019 by tomspielman

turning a knob while looking through a red window for a faintly printed number

The Super has fully automated film counting and spacing. Apparently you don't even need to place arrows on the backing paper next to red dots before you close the camera. I wouldn't be surprised if the tiny toothed wheel digging itself deep into the emulsion senses where the film starts.

My NRC's strap broke during the 80s and I restitched partially during the 90s. I'm not complaining; at least thats work even I can do.

Ben, I think you're on target with your assumptions that the Super Ikonta III or IV would suit your needs. I have a late BX (a B with selenium meter) with the coated lens and Synchro Compur shutter, which I like a LOT. So any of these three, I'd recommend. Also, there's the Agfa Isolette III with Solinar lens and Syncrho Compur shutter -- I have the one with the 75mm f/3.5 Solinar. But something that plagues virtually all the Isolettes is the focusing mechanism being jammed up from the lube being turned into the consistency of crayon. Once this problem is corrected, though, the Isolette becomes a great shooter -- as good as a Super Ikonta, imo.

Alright, a 532/16 with a coated(T) Zeiss Opton Tessar is on the way. Even though I said I would have preferred a Synchro-Compur, this one is nice enough that I think I can live with the Compur-Rapid-after all flash in MF, especially with a camera like this, usually means hauling out the Metz 60 CT-4, and at that point the size of the camera is kind of irrelevant anyway :) (I admit that I miss having a usable hotshoe on the side grip on my SQ-A-the cold shoe on the Hasselblad side grip still means a cord to the terribly placed PC connector).

Regarding flash with the Compur Rapid, I've observed that the later shutters have the modern PC connector, whereas the earlier ones have some other sort of early connector. Since yours has the coated lens, it probably has the later Compur Rapid. One of the things I like about the Synchro Compur is it has the PC connector, one fewer thing to worry about.

To add a bit more "terror" into Ben's search, might I suggest the Agfa Isolette 3. Mine has the Apotar lens and Prontor shutter. This shutter has a 10 sec timer which I use when the camera is on a tripod. The lens is a bit "off" from the Solinar, but stopped down to f11-22, I see no difference from a camera in Hawaii having the Solinar / Compur mix. I would only get a Iso3 from Jurgen, as the "green grease" lock on the focus helicoil needs SERIOUS fixing, not just a dash of light fluid. He also can provide a new, sexy red or blue bellows. You are taking a crap shot hoping that any Isolette does not have a mass of pin holes in it's original bellows. I do not use a never-ready case, but have this entire kit within a Lowepro Edit 110 case. With a small light meter, you can stick this camera (folded of course) into a coat or back pocket and wonder out. As to the square format, get use to it.. use it in your composition. Cropping is now a thing of the past using all my 6x6 cameras.

The range finder of the Iso 3 is not coupled to the lens focusing. All three of my Agfa folders with the RF are very accurate. One gets use to setting everything in one swift motion.

Regarding flash with the Compur Rapid, I've observed that the later shutters have the modern PC connector, whereas the earlier ones have some other sort of early connector. Since yours has the coated lens, it probably has the later Compur Rapid. One of the things I like about the Synchro Compur is it has the PC connector, one fewer thing to worry about.

 

Took a close look at the one I bought, and it does indeed have a PC connector next to the lens. I guess I had(wrongly) assumed that one needed a Synchro-Compur to get any kind of flash synchronization. I have had Rolleiflex Automats with Compur-Rapids that lacked flash sync, so I guess I was basing it on that. Since there doesn't look to be an M-X selector, I guess the question would be how it is set up.

 

Thanks for cluing me in on that!

To add a bit more "terror" into Ben's search, might I suggest the Agfa Isolette 3. Mine has the Apotar lens and Prontor shutter. This shutter has a 10 sec timer which I use when the camera is on a tripod. The lens is a bit "off" from the Solinar, but stopped down to f11-22, I see no difference from a camera in Hawaii having the Solinar / Compur mix. I would only get a Iso3 from Jurgen, as the "green grease" lock on the focus helicoil needs SERIOUS fixing, not just a dash of light fluid. He also can provide a new, sexy red or blue bellows. You are taking a crap shot hoping that any Isolette does not have a mass of pin holes in it's original bellows. I do not use a never-ready case, but have this entire kit within a Lowepro Edit 110 case. With a small light meter, you can stick this camera (folded of course) into a coat or back pocket and wonder out. As to the square format, get use to it.. use it in your composition. Cropping is now a thing of the past using all my 6x6 cameras.

 

Thanks, but I have a Super Ikonta on the way.

 

There's no real "getting use" to 6x6 for me since I use it more than any more MF format.

Jochen, please check your private mail box.

A few years ago I picked up a Franka Solida III at a car boot sale, for peanuts.

 

It doesn't quite fit Ben's criteria, but it comes with an 'interesting'* 80mm f/2.9 Schneider Radionar coated lens.

 

Everything is pretty much uncoupled. Built in rangefinder, but not coupled to the lens. Wind on by red window and separate shutter cocking. The only thing that's vaguely automatic is a lockout that prevents tripping the shutter before winding on to the next frame.

 

Other than that, it fits the bill nicely!:rolleyes:

 

Plus points: Takes 120 film - 12 on, has a Prontor SVS shutter that's P-C synchronised, speeds 1 to 1/300th + B and focusses to 3.5 ft with a fairly easily-seen and accurate double-image rangefinder - uncoupled as previously mentioned. The separate direct vision viewfinder is clear and just about useable while wearing spectacles.

 

*The Radionar lens is interesting for its 'swirly' bokeh.

Yet another Franka Solida - not RF though:

Here's the Solida III.

The bellows look a bit sad, but I'm pretty certain they're still light-tight.

Not sure how you pronounce 'Solida'. Is it with a long I, like Soleeda? Or just like more solid?

Alright, my 632/16 arrived here today.

 

I loaded a roll of film in it, but haven't had a chance yet to shoot it(I didn't get home until late). Hopefully, I can report back soon!

So, the good news is that everything seems to look like it works correctly. I quite literally just hung the first roll up to dry about 10 minutes ago, so I can't say a whole lot about the rangefinder accuracy, but exposure at least looks decent.

 

I was just walking around with Delta 100 loaded in it and more or less following sunny 16 and opening up a bit in the shade-I mostly shot it at 1/200 and f/11 or f/8, but for some "tricky" shots used multiple meter readings from the F2sb I had slung over my shoulder that I was shooting also(and did try a couple of other shutter speeds just to make sure they were more or less okay, plus I shot it some at f/2.8 to check focus accuracy).

 

Unfortunately, though, the frame spacing is REALLY wide and it looks to me like this one may be an honest 11 frame camera.

 

One last thing-I suspect that I may need a new changing bag. I developed another roll of Delta 100 that I shot last week in a new-to-me Hassy A12 back, and it had the same sporadic edge fogging as these show. I don't know what else they have in common other than that.

 

Years ago I wanted a "beach camera" that I could walk into the ocean and take pictures. If I dropped it or it got splashed I would not be upset. An Agfa Speedex was a 6x6 camera that fit the bill. No rangefinder but using "sunny 22" at the beach a rangefinder was not needed. The bellows needed taping but it produced some pretty good transparencies.

So, the good news is that everything seems to look like it works correctly. I quite literally just hung the first roll up to dry about 10 minutes ago, so I can't say a whole lot about the rangefinder accuracy, but exposure at least looks decent.

 

I was just walking around with Delta 100 loaded in it and more or less following sunny 16 and opening up a bit in the shade-I mostly shot it at 1/200 and f/11 or f/8, but for some "tricky" shots used multiple meter readings from the F2sb I had slung over my shoulder that I was shooting also(and did try a couple of other shutter speeds just to make sure they were more or less okay, plus I shot it some at f/2.8 to check focus accuracy).

 

Unfortunately, though, the frame spacing is REALLY wide and it looks to me like this one may be an honest 11 frame camera.

 

One last thing-I suspect that I may need a new changing bag. I developed another roll of Delta 100 that I shot last week in a new-to-me Hassy A12 back, and it had the same sporadic edge fogging as these show. I don't know what else they have in common other than that.

 

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Do you know that the film is being wound tightly on the take up spool in your "new" camera and film back? If your changing bag were the problem I don't think the light leaks would be confined to the film edges.

Do you know that the film is being wound tightly on the take up spool in your "new" camera and film back? If your changing bag were the problem I don't think the light leaks would be confined to the film edges.

 

Good point-I'd expect all-over fogging if it were a changing bag issue.

 

Both came out rolled tightly, so I don't THINK that's the issue. On a Hasselblad, the film path is so convoluted that just getting it to catch in the first place is half the battle.

 

I also thought light seals, since at one point or another the Hasselblad shed a piece of them, but generally bad seals on a Hasselblad back generally show up on one side of the film. I'm also not sure whether or not the Ikonta has any foam/rope seals at all to go bad.