Notre-Dame de Paris

this seems to have panicked the members of parliament in London into realising that they shouldn't delay with repairs of that building - it's also a known fire risk, and they've been putting off refurbishment.

You'd think the fire at Windsor Castle would have been warning enough! Our own state legislators were unwilling to spend the money to seismically reinforce the state capitol building, that is until a savvy engineer used an engineering animation and showed them what would happen in even a modest earthquake. Now the building has a state-of-the-art base isolation system. (Sure wish I'd had a piece of that contract.)

It will be very interesting to examine the decision processes that take place in regards the restoration work. JDM can speak authoritatively on the challenge of what one chooses to preserve or restore, when one frequently is dealing with a thousand years' of overlaid and interwoven historic fabric. In this case they will need to pick a set of specific historic conditions and rebuild to match those conditions. Again, the choices made as to where to apply modern materials and technology, and where to re-apply historic materials and craft will be fascinating, not to mention how one applies modern codes to such work.

 

I think you have put your finger on the biggest problem - the decision making by politicians influenced by "pressure groups".

 

A case in point - the San Francisco Bay Bridge. The Loma Prieta earthquake of October 1989 brought down sections of the eastern span. It took only one month to make repairs, but the structure was deemed to be unsafe for future earthquakes. It was decided to replace it rather than retrofit it. It took until September 2013 to complete the new structure - almost 24 years. Most of the time was spent in political haggling about what to build and how to build it. It took 3 1/2 years to build the entire Bay Bridge, eastern and western spans, in the mid-1930's with no computers for design and 1930's construction techniques and machinery.

 

On the other hand, if Macron is a good leader and skilled politician, he can use the restoration to unify the whole country behind the project. Ask everyone to contribute and involve them or make them seem involved. It will be a test of leadership. Good luck to him.

I think you have put your finger on the biggest problem - the decision making by politicians influenced by "pressure groups".

 

A case in point - the San Francisco Bay Bridge. The Loma Prieta earthquake of October 1989 brought down sections of the eastern span. It took only one month to make repairs, but the structure was deemed to be unsafe for future earthquakes. It was decided to replace it rather than retrofit it. It took until September 2013 to complete the new structure - almost 24 years. Most of the time was spent in political haggling about what to build and how to build it. It took 3 1/2 years to build the entire Bay Bridge, eastern and western spans, in the mid-1930's with no computers for design and 1930's construction techniques and machinery.

 

On the other hand, if Macron is a good leader and skilled politician, he can use the restoration to unify the whole country behind the project. Ask everyone to contribute and involve them or make them seem involved. It will be a test of leadership. Good luck to him.

Since I have been living in the Silicon Valley in the last 19 years, I am quite familiar with the construction of new eastern span of the Bay Bridge. While it may appear to be highly inefficient to have a lot of debates and compromises, I think it is still a better system than having some dictator who decides everything and forces everybody to follow, without any questions. But that is another topic.

 

I have little doubt that the rebuild of the Notre Dame will take quite a while. I have been to France for only that one time in 2005 so far, but hopefully I'll get to see the new Norte Dame in my lifetime. (Back in 2005, my wife and I were going to Madagascar, a former French colony, hence there were more flight to Madagascar from Paris. And we decide to spend 3 days in Paris ahead of the main trip.)

I go to Paris several times every year for work, and often take a stroll around the famous landmarks, including the Notre Dame. A few years ago I found out by chance that an old friend I hadn't seen for ages also happened to be visiting Paris (for the first time) whiIe I was there, so we decided to reconnect and do some sightseeing together. That's the only time I went inside the Notre Dame, and I must say it was very impressive. I took these with a D700 and I think the 24-120 f/4. Edited April 17, 2019 by raczoliver

When I started this thread, I was not sure what kind of responses we would get. Obviously Norte Dame is a famous landmark and is very much in the news, but a thread limited to images (and discussion) of one specific location in France using only Nikon cameras could be risky. Thanks a lot for the responses and some beautiful images. Checking my 2005 NEF files, I realized that my wife and I merely spent like half an hour there late in the afternoon, after a long flight from San Francisco to Paris, and I missed plenty of photo opportunities during that brief visit.

 

raczoliver wrote:

"A few years ago I found out by chance that an old friend I hadn't seen for ages also happened to be visiting Paris (for the first time) whiIe I was there, so we decided to reconnect and do some sightseeing together."

 

Somehow I initially mis-read that he was meeting up with an old girlfriend in Paris, and I kept thinking what ...?? It was like half an hour later I finally read his post correctly.

 

Thanks again for the images, memory, and discussion. I noticed that there are other similar threads on other web forums although they are not necessarily limited to one camera brand. The responses are good too. I guess a number of people came up with similar ideas.

 

It was a busy day there when I visited. Nikkor 12-24mm/f4 DX AF-S lens at 12mm, f4, 1/13 sec and ISO 1600 (which is top ISO 800 plus 1) on the D2X.

 

We had the good fortune to host some French foreign exchange students last Spring and were later invited to visit their families, which we did in August. I can only begin to tell you what an amazing experience it was to be able to see and get to know the City through the eyes of those that live there. We were in the Brooklyn Museum on Monday when we saw the live video of the fire, and our hearts just sank. Being in a business that has involved the renovation of local historic buildings, I mirror David's and others' hopes that rational decisions be made, using all that has been learned though the centuries, in its reconstruction.

In the second image (a detail of the first) you can see the scaffolding approaching the spire.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Jon Eckman

Thank you for starting it, Shun - and sorry to veer it slightly off the image theme. Thank you to everyone who's shared images - there's a lot of detail and artistry here that I've not seen before; we can only hope that much of it has survived.

Art historian, Andrew Fallon, recently deceased, used laser scanning technology and other techniques to measure the structure of Notre Dame de Paris with an accuracy of about +/- 5 mm. He has done the same with many other cathedrals, including the National Cathedral in Washington, DC. This data will be invaluable in detecting any changes in the remaining structure, and aid in the reconstruction. An account of Fallon's achievements were described in a National Geographic article, June, 2015.

 

It would be wonderful if someone or some group methodically photographed architectural details and artwork. Many places can only be reached via hidden galleries, precarious platforms or scaffolding.

We have mentioned a number of times that the 2020 Summer Olympics will be in Tokyo (next year), and I expect Nikon to introduce a D6 before that event. In the last couple of days, I got a reminder that the Summer Olympics after that in 2024 will be in Paris. Hence there is this push to rebuild Notre Dame within 5 years in time for the Olympics, but some other estimates are that it'll take 10 to 20 years to restore. Perhaps they can rebuild the roof and the exterior in 5 years, but a lot of the art work and interior decor will take much longer.

 

Hopefully I'll still be around in another decade and will use my then new Z80 to photograph Notre Dame again. I'll certainly try to spend more time there if I have another chance to go. Incidentally, Z80 was the model number of a microprocessor from Zilog, a spin off from Intel in the 1970's. When I was an undergrad student, I liked that chip a lot.

Hopefully I'll still be around in another decade and will use my then new Z80 to photograph Notre Dame again. I'll certainly try to spend more time there if I have another chance to go. Incidentally, Z80 was the model number of a microprocessor from Zilog, a spin off from Intel in the 1970's. When I was an undergrad student, I liked that chip a lot.

 

The Z80 would have been in the first computer I used (there was a Sinclair ZX81, Timex 1000 in the US, later supplemented by some RML machines, at my primary school). The first computer I owned (and still own) was a ZX Spectrum, which had a Z80A in it, back when 48K of RAM was a lot. Names get reused a lot (*cough* D60). I'd be perfectly happy to photograph Notre Dame with my D850, though, so long as the mirror doesn't disrupt people.

 

Good point about the Olympics, anyway; I hope the rush doesn't affect the quality of the restoration.

We have mentioned a number of times that the 2020 Summer Olympics will be in Tokyo (next year), and I expect Nikon to introduce a D6 before that event. In the last couple of days, I got a reminder that the Summer Olympics after that in 2024 will be in Paris. Hence there is this push to rebuild Notre Dame within 5 years in time for the Olympics, but some other estimates are that it'll take 10 to 20 years to restore. Perhaps they can rebuild the roof and the exterior in 5 years, but a lot of the art work and interior decor will take much longer.

 

Hopefully I'll still be around in another decade and will use my then new Z80 to photograph Notre Dame again. I'll certainly try to spend more time there if I have another chance to go. Incidentally, Z80 was the model number of a microprocessor from Zilog, a spin off from Intel in the 1970's. When I was an undergrad student, I liked that chip a lot.

Your Z80 perhaps is a new camera but it would be in a lower class than your Z6. Another thought that the French may get some of your redwood to rebuild the Notre Dame but I found out that redwood is not a good timber.

The Z80 rocked in those days. My visit to Paris and Notre Dame was during my return from a work trip to deliver Z80-based systems in Europe. Alas, my photos of the cathedral from that trip are still in the queue for scanning.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and the Notre Dame cathedral took 200 years before it resembled its present (pre-fire) form. Hundreds of craftsmen carved the woodwork with almost total license to express their creativity. Let us hope for an intact roof in 5 years, this time with fire watchers who stay until every spark is extinguished.

 

On my trip through Ireland last year, there were many magnificent old buildings intact, but many more in ruins. You can hardly throw a rock without hitting a ruined castle or church. History is not on the side of architecture.

Just an FYI that appears to be being overlooked in the media reports. In France, in 2018, 875 Catholic churches were vandalized. In just 1 week lat month 12 churches were vandalized including one that suffered a deliberately set fire.

We have mentioned a number of times that the 2020 Summer Olympics will be in Tokyo (next year), and I expect Nikon to introduce a D6 before that event. In the last couple of days, I got a reminder that the Summer Olympics after that in 2024 will be in Paris. Hence there is this push to rebuild Notre Dame within 5 years in time for the Olympics, but some other estimates are that it'll take 10 to 20 years to restore. Perhaps they can rebuild the roof and the exterior in 5 years, but a lot of the art work and interior decor will take much longer.

 

Hopefully I'll still be around in another decade and will use my then new Z80 to photograph Notre Dame again. I'll certainly try to spend more time there if I have another chance to go. Incidentally, Z80 was the model number of a microprocessor from Zilog, a spin off from Intel in the 1970's. When I was an undergrad student, I liked that chip a lot.

the estimate of repair time of 5 years came from the President the day after the fire and could be done with sufficient international financing - that sounds like a politician. I thing it would be easier to find another Olympic city and then give Paris the games, when the Notre Dame is fully repaired. The experts are likely already discussing this.

We might all be surprised at how quickly the actual restoration work can be accomplished, once the money is in place and the political obstacles have been removed. With the little information I've seen I'm optimistic that much can be accomplished in a relatively short period of time. It's not like the building is in a heap on the ground, or has been thoroughly gutted. With some exceptions, the line of demarcation between fire destruction (primarily the roof and spire), and the balance of the building is fairly clear. Once the building is deemed stabilized and safe (anticipate the interior being filled with scaffold) cleaning and interior repairs can begin, including repairs to the stone ceiling vaults. It will take some time to engineer the replacement roof structure, but once the design is complete and approved, the actual execution should be fairly straightforward. Obviously there are many, many contingencies and exceptions, but we do this character (if not scale) of work all the time and the process and procedures are not a mystery. I agree that 5 years is a push, but shame on whoever's responsible if takes more than 8-10 years. I expect planning, capital investment, and construction for the Olympics is already well underway, and the fire at Notre Dame should not be sufficient cause to impact the Games as planned.

Interesting images, Glen. Did you capture the first two from the towers in front?

 

I would rather not to turn this thread into a debate about the reconstruction. There will be plenty of that somewhere else. But it is quite certain the Summer Olympics will be in Paris/France in 2024 (unless there is some major disaster like WW III). I would imagine the French can put a new roof back on the Notre Dame by then. Reconstruction inside can continue on for another decade or two, or even longer.

Did you capture the first two from the towers in front?

The first is taken from the passage (chimera gallery) between the two towers (I have a similar image in my flickr photostream). One ascends in the North Tower, traverses the chimera gallery to the South belfry and can continue all the way to the top of the South Tower - altogether 387 steps (147 to get from the gallery level to the top) (north and south are the left and right tower, respectively, when viewed from the front of the cathedral). Quite narrow spiral staircase. The second image appears to be taken from the top of the South Tower.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Dieter Schaefer

Thanks for sharing, Glen, explaining, Dieter, and stopping me feeling an idiot for being surprised at the viewpoint, Shun. :-) (I'd not seen images from that angle before - particularly Glen's first image. Looking at an image of the Cathedral from the West, I guess you can see that the roof didn't connect to the section between the towers, which is what I might naively have expected. Nice to learn something new!)

Thanks for sharing, Glen, explaining, Dieter, and stopping me feeling an idiot for being surprised at the viewpoint, Shun. :) (I'd not seen images from that angle before - particularly Glen's first image. Looking at an image of the Cathedral from the West, I guess you can see that the roof didn't connect to the section between the towers, which is what I might naively have expected. Nice to learn something new!)

I was at the Notre Dame in 2013 but I didn't see much. I didn't even go inside.

Dieter, thanks for the explanation. It shows you how little I knew about the Notre Dame, from my 30-minute visit. But apparently there are people who are worse. :cool:

 

As I said we arrived Paris from San Francisco that morning, settled into the hotel and then went to the Notre Dame in the afternoon. In the following couple of days we spent more time at the Louvre and the Eiffel Tower.

Interesting side light in regard to lack of large trees needed for reconstruction. Millionaire aristocrat, 72, pledges to send 50 oak trees to help rebuild Notre Dame | Daily Mail Online

Interesting side light in regard to lack of large trees needed for reconstruction. Millionaire aristocrat, 72, pledges to send 50 oak trees to help rebuild Notre Dame | Daily Mail Online

I will mourn of the loss of these old oak trees, but I'll get over it.