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Almost a beginner


owen w.

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Hi,

 

I’m a beginner only in a sense. I have years of film range-finder experience, and a collection of bodies and lenses to show. But I walked away from photography some years ago to do other things. Anyway, now I want to get a digital body to use with my vintage lenses. Almost all of these are Leica M mount lenses.

 

I cannot seem to find threads discussing the various merits of the options, and experience in practice. Surely this cannot be an undiscussed subject arena, can it?

 

For me, full frame simply means more lenses I can use. So, it mostly seems to be the Sony A series, or the new bodies from Nikon & Canon. I’m leaning heavily towards the A7iii. I cannot justify the expense of a Leica digital body, although I really covet the newest, re-slimmed M10 P. Sigh.

 

Anyway, where are the discussions of the range finder shooters who want to use their manual vintage lenses in the digital (mirrorless) world?

 

I don’t want to open a thread in the wrong forum, so please?

 

Many thanks.

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It really depends on how much money you want to spend and what you want to do with your photos. I kept most of my RF gear, and occasionally use it as intended. But about 3 years ago I began using most of those great old Leica, Minolta, Zeiss, and Canon FD lenses lenses on a micro 4/3 body and fell in love with the versatility. No it isn't an M10 or Sony A7 series...it was a used Olympus E-Pl2...a dinosaur by now. However, it does just fine for many purposes...moderate sized online shots, product sales and I've even gotten some16x20 canvas prints which people think I used a much more expensive (professional) camera for. So explore around...the latest and greatest always also mean the most expensive, but those old lenses of yours can do miracles on relatively inexpensive m4/3 gear. You do need to master digital processing however, but it isn't really all that daunting.
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My thanks. Yes, basically I know that adapters exist and that I can fit my M-mount lenses to several newer mirrorless cameras. But I would think this would have already spawned multiple threads of "this vs that" body, etc. No?

 

I'm trying to leapfrog a couple generations, going straight from analog film to reasonably current. Not cheap, but the A7iii seems a valid option. Maybe the next iteration of Canon, Nikon, or the others may really shine for such purposes. Again, are there not long, well-developed threads debating all this?

 

I love the feel of old lenses, and I have a few real beauts! Certainly I cannot be alone. If not a Leica body, then what? and why?

 

and . . . where?

 

Thanks, again.

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You are right to lean towards Sony. ;-) But, some Sony bodies are not suitable for M lenses. It's best to search the Web for opinions on that. Or, post a question in the mirrorless forum:

 

Mirrorless Digital Cameras

 

Here's one review with an A7r:

 

Review: using Leica M lenses on the 36MP Sony A7r mirrorless camera - Leica Rumors

 

Check this out as well:

 

Leica M and M39 - phillipreeve.net

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Few problems

  • What do you give up to use a vintage lens?
    • Autofocus
    • Auto aperture; focus wide open, automatically closes down to shoot, the opens up again.

  • Autofocus

  • You have to manually focus the lens through the EVF. Some cameras are easier than others.

     

  • Many/most of the current/recent generation were brought up on autofocus, and cannot manually focus a lens.

     

  • For sports/action, I would NOT go back to a manual focus lens, way too slow.

  • Auto Aperture

  • Aperture is manual. That means opening up the lens to focus, then stopping down to shoot . . . for EVERY SHOT.

     

  • To me, this is a PiA and more of a hassle than manually focusing the lens, and really slows down your shooting. The only lenses that I have that I have to manually work the aperture ring like that are my view camera lenses. This is operationally going back to the 1950s.

  • The optics of the past are not standing up to the high MP cameras of today.
    • The more the camera can resolve, the more the lens has to resolve to match the camera.
      • What might have worked fine on a 6MP camera, may be marginal on a 16MP camera, and poor on a 40MP camera.

      [*]Your Leica lens will hold up better than some of the other film era lenses.

  • The lens mount to film distance of your Leica eliminates most/all of the dSLRs, and you have to use a mirrorless, with its shorter flange to sensor distance.
    • But there have not been a LOT of mirrorless cameras, yet.

  • Adapters vary in what they communicate between the lens and the camera.
    • NONE of the Nikon to m4/3 adapters that I found could communicate between the lens and camera. So my autofocus G lens is now an auto NOTHING lens, manual focus and no ability to control the aperture.
    • My Nikon F lenses are like your Leica lenses; manual focus, manual aperture control.
    • The Nikon FTZ adapter will not autofocus their mechanical AF lenses, only their electronic AF lenses.
       
    • I understand that the Canon EF lenses will autofocus through a smart adapter to the m4/3 camera.

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I want to get a digital body to use with my vintage... M mount lenses.

Excuse me, what was the very worst SLR shooting experience you ever had (gear wise)? I mean this seriously and on topic! - Bits I am recalling:

  • Manually focusing a slow wide, wide open
  • Seeing close to nothing especially in the corners of my screen indoors, focusing on chrome spectacles guessing my framing
  • The general joy of operating pre-select apertures

By cobbling RF glass on mirrorless you 'll end with a very sluggish, less responsive camera in hand. - It will work for landscapes from a tripod just as LF did. - It might work for wide open portraits, at least you'll have a chance to magnify your EVF to see exactly what you are focusing on (with all the pitfalls of focus & recompose).

When things go really dim you might face 2 additional problems: EVFs sometimes drop their refresh rate then and lag behind reality. Working with flash and setting your exposure (especially aperture) for that, you can end with a really dark EVF. If that is the case stopping down a hard clicking RF lens counting those clicks and keeping the now blind rather light camera pointed at your subject is quite a chore.

So much about the UI, lets get techy: I guess if you followed Karim's links above you end at a review claiming an aspherical 35mm 'lux looks only in it's image center acceptable on A7R and much better in a Leica body's corners. - you can dive into lensrentals.com 's blog and read up on #sensor stack and make up your mind if you like Kolarivision to modify your brand new whatever for RF heritage wide use.

Otherwise, if image quality happens to be your fetish, it might be wise to simply forget about anything below 50mm that you already own.

 

Upon the missing threads: I think we are just late to the party, just like Canon & Nikon. The more active or wealthy folks with an urge to try their M glass on something cheaper than M (& R-D 1) bought or borrowed MFT, Sony, Fuji and whatever else became available already years ago. Canikon's late(!) "me too" - MILCS aim at a different market; they are meant to enable existing EOS or Nikon shooters to transition to mirrorless slowly enabling them to shoot their SLR stuff on the new bodies till it falls apart and makes way for later and greater dedicated MILC glass, which seems droolworthy enough, to start save up for it.

 

To an outsider I'd describe Canikon's current offerings: "They are just starting out, right now. - Awesome Sony matching bodies will hopefully get released later (next year or such?)" Canon have confirmed rumors to be finally working on IBIS. - IMHO an absolutely desirable must have feature, if you plan to do something else besides wide open bokeh shots with your kit. - Honestly absolutely no clue about Nikon Z.

 

Myself I started out with Pentax (& do like their IBIS!) wasn't too convinced by the glass and AF speed, but quite hooked by Leica in general. I blue-eyedly walked into an electronics mall and asked about MILCs to adapt my old glass upon and was sold into early Fujis. - A bit later I managed to buy my old dream the M8, for toes dipping purposes, was happy enough and added a pre-owned Monochrom towards the end of it's model cycle. After a while I realized to "need" a 70-200 on something DSLR and bought EOS.

 

My summarized experience: I never used the M glass adapted to Fuji. Indoors doing so feels close to combining the very worst of all worlds. Outdoors I appreciate the convenience of shooting kit zooms with OIS. I assume Fuji did in between release cameras with much better AF performance. - They also have one IBIS body out so far and offer matching AF lenses which (unlike many others) can be (almost?) as cute and compact as M glass.

Fujis and the also RF camera inspired Pen F have their fans.

Sony offer a mirrorless system competing seriously with existing best DSLRs. Unfortunately the choice of VF system has no real impact on lens size there.

 

My prediction: If you end on a serious photography trip again, embracing digital, you'll get torn inside; lusting for either swift AF from native Sony lenses or just good old RF convenience from a M10 and counting your pennies you might end seeking a compromise somewhere in between with a smaller sensor.

  • Getting something A7 + M adapter seems unlikely to end with living happily ever after.

I don't dare to argue about monetary aspects. An M10 could be had for 5K4€ (used) and is ready to roll with your glass at hand (or might shout for 3rd party 6 bit coding. - US$ 200 per lens via DAG?) Sony A 7III 2k€, Techart AF adapter most likely 500€ (including customs VAT etc.) Thin filter conversion US$500 leaves you with about 2K2€ to burn on some AF glass of choice.

 

I haven't handled the M10 yet. - I think I read it would work a little bit better with longer lenses than the too short RF base of M8 & 9? - It's expanded ISO range seems "desirable" to me but I have something too shoot no more money to burn and filed it under "Maybe someday used".

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I feel the M lenses are way too expensive

Good point, maybe a little off. - One could say "became way too valuable, now", assuming they got (hopefully) scooped up for cheap, during pre-digital days.

For me, full frame simply means more lenses I can use.

I suggest putting that plan on your backburner for an instant. - Figure out which APS MILC you could temporary acquire, to find out if shooting adapted glass is really your cup of tea. - (While there might have been various reasons to get into M stuff "the camera getting not into your way" seems a frequently quoted one, at least by it's marketing. - OTOH I met an elderly wildlife shooting Visoflex user, too who seemed fond of the idea that what isn't there can't break. - So I really don't know your needs for sure.)

Sony Alpha 6000 series comes to mind. (Ask somebody else about the subtle differences between the by now at least 4 bodies.) - Buying a used one + dumb cheap adapter should be possible for less than 600 €/$. Loss reselling it later shouldn't be overly high and a crop body on the side might be nice to have anyhow. (I honestly have no clue what is best suited for adapting. - I'd look for something offering the higher EVF resolution, EVF at all, focusing aids and if it is meant to be a general purpose camera: IBIS. - Suggestion: Get it with a kit zoom, to cross evaluate what you are missing without AF, these days.

 

I think some of the threads you are looking for could be in the Leica forum here. I'm only recalling two extreme cases: One member trying M lenses to have something compact and sticking to DSLRs and native Sony glass later; another starting out with a used M9, switching to Sony and getting a huge impressive native E-mount kit together, by now.

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Good point, maybe a little off. - One could say "became way too valuable, now", assuming they got (hopefully) scooped up for cheap, during pre-digital days.

 

I suggest putting that plan on your backburner for an instant. - Figure out which APS MILC you could temporary acquire, to find out if shooting adapted glass is really your cup of tea. - (While there might have been various reasons to get into M stuff "the camera getting not into your way" seems a frequently quoted one, at least by it's marketing. - OTOH I met an elderly wildlife shooting Visoflex user, too who seemed fond of the idea that what isn't there can't break. - So I really don't know your needs for sure.)

Sony Alpha 6000 series comes to mind. (Ask somebody else about the subtle differences between the by now at least 4 bodies.) - Buying a used one + dumb cheap adapter should be possible for less than 600 €/$. Loss reselling it later shouldn't be overly high and a crop body on the side might be nice to have anyhow. (I honestly have no clue what is best suited for adapting. - I'd look for something offering the higher EVF resolution, EVF at all, focusing aids and if it is meant to be a general purpose camera: IBIS. - Suggestion: Get it with a kit zoom, to cross evaluate what you are missing without AF, these days.

 

I think some of the threads you are looking for could be in the Leica forum here. I'm only recalling two extreme cases: One member trying M lenses to have something compact and sticking to DSLRs and native Sony glass later; another starting out with a used M9, switching to Sony and getting a huge impressive native E-mount kit together, by now.

Agree! What I really meant is that if the OP goes for a Sony for example then it would be better to sell the M lenses and get Sony lenses. It would be better that way. You can use M lenses on the Sony but although they may be sharp but you lose a lot of conveniences.

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I wanted to use my Dad's Leica lenses digitally and affordably. After a search similar to yours I bought a Ricoh GXR with A 12 Leica mount module. Works perfectly, and not just for Leica mount - a simple, cheap adapter lets me use my old Nikon lenses as well. You may have to search a bit and shop & wait for the right deal. Just another possibility, but one I have used myself.
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Since the introduction of mirrorless interchangeable cameras, there have been a significant amount of discussion on that subject on this website and on many others. The discussions have only accelerated upon the introduction of the Sony A series cameras and folks looking to use their treasured Leica M optics on a FF camera that is cheaper than a digital M. On Photo Net, check the Mirrorless, Leica, and Sony forums for discussion on using M lenses and which ones seems to work better on a Sony A series cameras.

 

A google search for M lenses on Sony A cameras results in a whole lot of reading material

Edited by Ken Katz
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Hi,

 

I’m a beginner only in a sense. I have years of film range-finder experience, and a collection of bodies and lenses to show. But I walked away from photography some years ago to do other things. Anyway, now I want to get a digital body to use with my vintage lenses. Almost all of these are Leica M mount lenses.

 

I cannot seem to find threads discussing the various merits of the options, and experience in practice. Surely this cannot be an undiscussed subject arena, can it?

 

For me, full frame simply means more lenses I can use. So, it mostly seems to be the Sony A series, or the new bodies from Nikon & Canon. I’m leaning heavily towards the A7iii. I cannot justify the expense of a Leica digital body, although I really covet the newest, re-slimmed M10 P. Sigh.

 

Anyway, where are the discussions of the range finder shooters who want to use their manual vintage lenses in the digital (mirrorless) world?

 

I don’t want to open a thread in the wrong forum, so please?

 

Many thanks.

 

Hi, well, just be a pain in the neck for a minute, why not buy a complete digital camera system, AND shoot your old lenses with your old camera bodies?

You won't have to give up any modern conveniences- you'll gain all there is to gain from the digital rig, and you'll still get to use your sweet old lenses (as they were intended)!

 

Sorry, but asking just out of curiosity.

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Link to https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2018/10/10/canon-eos-r-a-question-of-adaptation <- A review with the OP's goals in mind, claiming that manual focusing is easier on EOS R than on Sony A9, or Leica M10 or SL and one could really get away without using EVF magnification with the EOS. - If that is the case, I am probably fortunate, since my next chunk of wealth might not arrive before an IBIS EOS.

Did somebody publish a manual focus shoot out between the Z, R & E mounts?

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I use lenses of virtually every major lens mount, going from 39mm Leica screw mount to modern AF lenses.

For many of them, where possible, I use adapters to mount them on a modern digital camera.

 

What do you give up to use a vintage lens?
sums up the experience.

 

Shooting old manual lenses is something you do for fun, not a practical substitute for a modern lens/camera combination.

 

I have old LTM cameras, old M Leica, old M42, Nikon, Contax RF lenses, and so on.

They are all best used on the bodies they were made for.

 

For serious photography, however, I use my recent model EOS cameras.

 

As a universal receiver, the Canon EOS cameras are pretty good, and I do get good service on them for my rather too large collection of Catadioptric (mirror) lenses since they were made without different apertures, etc.

500-on-EOS.jpg.c8a75a88ad8af03f7942eec3b7181406.jpg

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