A moderately Technical Discussion about f stops.

The Zone system was not about getting the right exposure, it was about developing to get all the important values where they should be - "Expose for the shadows; develop for the highlights".

 

Take a gray card reading outdoors. At f/16- 1/125 the shadows are where they should be but a person's face in the sunlight may be blown out white. Take the shot at f/16- 1/125 and underdevelop the film abut 50%. This will keep the shadows as they are but drop the face value down to Zone VII the proper value for the face.

 

If one tried to adjust the exposure setting, closing down two stops to get proper face value, the shadows would also be closed down two stops resulting in black shadows with no detail.

 

Using the Zone system allows one to be more creative and artistic.

How can the Zone system allow one to be more creative, you might ask? Take a photo of an old codger smoking a cigarette. (Old codgers are always smoking cigarettes.) Instead of placing his face value on Zone VII, place it on Zone V. Use +2 development to push the face values up toward Zone VII. The lower shadow values are not raised as much as the higher values. Exposure dropped the shadowy wrinkles and pores from Zones III and IV to Zones I and II. Exposure did not change them; they stayed that dark compared to the now lightened face values pushed up to Zone VII, resulting in darker wrinkles and pores than would have been captured at a normal exposure and development.

How can the Zone system allow one to be more creative, you might ask?

Great question and answer! When technique becomes practical and symbiotic with expression, it’s importance can be realized.

Rodeo Joe!

AA doesn't care for incident metering technique as its best suited for subject where you have even illumination over the entire subject. His subjects have area in the light and area in the shadows. The dynamic range of such subjects can far exceed a subject where the relative luminance of any part of the subject is depending only on its reflectance. As I said earlier his Zone VIII exposure 3 stops more than Zone V is within the film curve. When he print the negative he would either choose the contrast grade of his paper or by dodging/burning to render his subject within the paper dynamic range (of course the dynamic range of the paper can't be more than 100% reflectance). So his Zone VIII when he printed it isn't 3 stops brighter than his Zone V.

Right, but is that what’s happening here at PN? I’ve been around PN since 2007 and there’s noticeably much more about technical matters and gear than about the art, creativity, critique, or history of photography than there used to be.

 

And, as a member here since 2006, I would say that there have always been good technical discussions about various aspects of photography.

 

Those of us who enjoy them don't feel the need to come into art or philosophy threads and complain about the presence of those discussions. Why is the reverse okay?

 

Also, if you have indeed been a member since 2006, why does your profile say you joined in 2018?

I like to discuss the technical stuff and not the artistic stuff. If PN doesn't let me then I stop.

...This will keep the shadows as they are but drop the face value down to Zone VII the proper value for the face....

 

According to the Zone System, Zone VI is the proper zone for average Caucasian skin. Zone VII is usually correct for snow.

I enjoy learning new things and understanding how and why on just about all my interests, including photography. I'm a slow learner, but I never give up.

 

Important is not to be the first to reach the destination, but the one that enjoyed the trip...

 

Whatever time it takes to get things nailed in our brain, important is that they are fixed for ever.

 

And yes, never give up!!

 

here it is:

 

My first holidays in the US at that time. Nice!

Wow, this has gone sideways. Oh well, my two cents on this side subject. There are at least two types of artists, the Technician and Instinctive. Both are artists that create using their preferred techniques. A.A. was a Technician, while HCB was and Instinctive. Both were good at what they did. Then there are those like me that dirty the bed like the original post here. ;-)

And, as a member here since 2006, I would say that there have always been good technical discussions about various aspects of photography.

 

Those of us who enjoy them don't feel the need to come into art or philosophy threads and complain about the presence of those discussions. Why is the reverse okay?

Ben, I agree there have long been good technical discussions. What I said was that, today, there are relatively fewer artistic, critique-oriented, and creativity-oriented discussions compared to tech and gear discussions and compared to days gone by.

 

Though I believe you don’t come into art or philosophy threads to complain, please be aware that over the years many have. Those engaged in philosophy threads were often the butt of satirical or sarcastic posts as were many of the ideas being discussed, with quite some regularity. It was definitely a thing. As these forums are open to the public and to varying needs and perspectives, I sort of expect there will be disagreements expressed about those perspectives, emphases, and the value of different topics.

 

If you look back at this thread, you’ll see that I entered after Alan’s response and question to Rodeo Joe. I didn’t complain about the thread or topic. I specifically responded to whether knowledge of technique could hurt. I would probably have left it at that had there not been subsequent questions asked of me or responses made to me.

 

You actually entered the thread after me and have given about as much energy to responding to me as to the other response you made. That’s given us a chance to clarify things but it seems likely that my further participation on this topic would result in diminishing returns, so I wish you well.

Vincent, In his book "the Negative", Ansel Adams describes Zone VII for "Very light skin, light gray objects, average snow with acute side lighting."

It seems one of the cool things about digital photography now is it allows the flexibility to practice the zone system in the exposure phase that you really didn't have in 35mm film photography, remembering that Adams formulated the "zone system" to be used in shooting a view camera with individual sheet film. Personally, I use the camera's reflective spot meter in a WYSWYG EV and I can choose the where I want middle grey, or white or black and anything in between by where I place the spot, then lock the exposure, compose and shoot. It can be very fast, and right at the eye. However, I've found for digital shooting that it's much like shooting transparencies. I tend to shoot for the hi-lights, not the shadows, unless shadow detail is important. Often, for me, I like to let things go black and protect blown-out areas instead.

The Zone system is not about getting a correct exposure. It is about getting the values on a film that you want or "Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights."

On a poorly lit day a person's face values may be too dark (Zone V) with an indicated exposure of f/8 - 1/60. If you were to increase the exposure to f/4 - 1/125, the face values would be fine, raised to Zone VII, but the shadow areas would also be raised two stops from Zones II and III to Zones IV and Zone V. The shadow detail is now too light. You can print it darker to get the shadows back down to Zones II and III but the face value will also print at Zone V, too dark. What's a fellow to do?

 

Take the shot at the original f/8 - 1/60 then give N+2 additional development. That will raise the face values to about Zone VII and keep the shadow details at Zones II and Zone III. The one thing about digital is you can now do the same thing with color. With digital editing one can keep shadow details down and only raise highlights, or raise middle tones or keep highlights and raise shadows or raise middle tones and keep shadows and highlights or .... and ...

 

Great stuff digital.

 

"Often, for me, I like to let things go black and protect blown-out areas instead."

If this were black and white film you would expose for the shadows and give the film N-2 development to bring the blown out highlights back down to Zones IX or VIII and keep the shadow detail.

The Zone system is not about getting a correct exposure. It is about getting the values on a film that you want or "Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights."

On a poorly lit day a person's face values may be too dark (Zone V) with an indicated exposure of f/8 - 1/60. If you were to increase the exposure to f/4 - 1/125, the face values would be fine, raised to Zone VII, but the shadow areas would also be raised two stops from Zones II and III to Zones IV and Zone V. The shadow detail is now too light. You can print it darker to get the shadows back down to Zones II and III but the face value will also print at Zone V, too dark. What's a fellow to do?

 

Take the shot at the original f/8 - 1/60 then give N+2 additional development. That will raise the face values to about Zone VII and keep the shadow details at Zones II and Zone III. The one thing about digital is you can now do the same thing with color. With digital editing one can keep shadow details down and only raise highlights, or raise middle tones or keep highlights and raise shadows or raise middle tones and keep shadows and highlights or .... and ...

 

Great stuff digital.

 

"Often, for me, I like to let things go black and protect blown-out areas instead."

If this were black and white film you would expose for the shadows and give the film N-2 development to bring the blown out highlights back down to Zones IX or VIII and keep the shadow detail.

Done that. Works great. I didn't pull development 2 stops, but it worked nicely exposing Neon 1600 at 1600 and pulling about 2/3 to a full stop or so .

Well I am having fun learning and Alan's explanation of F-stops is helpful to me. I've never been very good at math but have good comprehension and am somewhat adept at grasping the gist of things- more so if I practice what I am learning and apply newly acquired knowledge to practice I've had. I guess that could be called reinforcement. It works for me. OTOH, I tell my long time photographer friends about some of this discussion and they caution against getting bogged down in details, saying things like "just shoot the photo!" or words to that effect. I guess they mean don't let the learning get in the way of the doing...

 

I think it's long been known that anyone can run around and take pictures- and it's especially true nowadays, in the Digital Age. Taking (or making) photographs is something different altogether, whether manually with film, or with a digital camera. I appreciate learning and I appreciate knowing. I WANT to "know" how to operate all my cameras manually, without the aid of "Auto" settings. I want to make photographs and not just shoot pictures; I feel like being better informed will help.

 

And oh BTW- that whole "pizza" pi rule thing reminded me of at least one joke. I'll spare you all, but thanks for the chuckle.

 

Thanks as well for all the information. I promise not to let it get in my way.

Don't worry, I'm not going to carry a calculator, caliper, and slide rule along when I go out with my camera!

The Zone system is not about getting a correct exposure. It is about getting the values on a film that you want or "Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights."

There is a corresponding strategy for digital photography, known as V-log gamma.`With digital you expose for the highlights and develop for the shadows. With V-log, the shoulder is extended so that highlights are contained in a range of 6 or 8 stops instead of 4. V-log is used in processing RAW files, which aren't changed directly. However zone VII can be pushed to lower exposure levels. Highlights are flattened in the process, but restored in processing.

 

V-log is mainly used for video, which is limited to 10 bit depth for practical reasons, mainly storage speed, or JPEGs, which are limited to 8 bit depth. However there are more ways to skin this cat. The usual way is to expose for the highlights so that areas you wish to retain detail are no more than 4 stops above the exposure setting (e.g., measure mid, measure high and adjust the exposure so that the highs no more than 4 stops above the mid reading). Some cameras, notably a Sony A7Riii, will do that for you automatically via the metering mode.