Are Profoto D2's the next logical upgrade from PCB Einstein's for product photography?

Hello!

Are Profoto D2's the next logical upgrade from Paul C. Buff Einstein's for product photography?

Currently I have a Canon 5D Mark IV (with Canon Log) and four Paul C. Buff Einstein’s.

Compared to the Einstein’s, I’m looking for more color and power consistency shot to shot, faster t0.1 times at useful outputs, and generally a little more power. Ideally these lights should be the most cost effective all around solution for product photography including splash, and perhaps a portrait here and there (TTL and HSS can be nice here).

I set off to do many months of research on every brand I could find. I believe it comes down to Profoto and Broncolor. Although the Profoto Pro-10, and Broncolor Scoro S packs and heads are absolute beasts and I’d love to have them, they’re clearly out of my budget for now (total cost around $45,000), but I could swing them in a couple of years if I skip the D2’s and keep saving. I found one Godox monolight (Godox QT1200IIM) but I’ve read about issues with consistency and honestly I haven’t heard much about them at all, and I don’t think they’re in the same categories as Profoto and Broncolor. This leaves me with the Profoto D2’s.

Have I missed something? Is there something else to consider?

One thing I just don’t understand about the D2’s is the flat head design. Profoto says it’s not an issue until you get in to large modifiers and beauty dishes, you can then replace the flat glass with a glass dome and they say this makes the difference. They also recommend their high capacity flash tube for high volume shoots. Profoto also mentioned Amazon changed over to D2’s for their photographers. For control I’d use the Profoto Air Remote Transceiver and Profoto Air USB for Profoto Studio Air (I won’t need TTL or HSS for product shots, I already have a Profoto Air Remote TTL-C for Canon). This way I can trigger and control each light independently from the camera, or control and store lighting setups from my laptop while triggering the camera with Capture One Pro or Capture Pilot.

Right now I’m heavily leaning to the Profoto D2 1000ws with a total package cost of $16,000 after replacing all 4 of my lights, modifiers, triggers and accessories. I already own x2 B1’s and x2 A1’s with some OCF modifiers for mobile use, and any modifier I get for the D2’s could also be used on the B1’s. This also means I could add my B1’s or even A1’s to a shoot if I really need them, I like the idea of keeping things consistent and compatible.

What do you think, am I on the right track? What are your thoughts?

PCB Einstein Flash Durations:

Profoto D2 1000ws Flash Durations:

Like Swedish Profoto, Swiss Elinchrom strobes are also very consistent between shots in terms of power and color temperature, regardless of power setting. Elinchrom also have several models with short flash duration. Have you looked into the Elinchrom ELC Pro HD series with a Transmitter Pro for Canon?

Elinchrom US > Compacts > ELC Pro HD

Another option could be the ELB1200, which is both available with an action head for short flash duration, a standard head and a high sync head. There is also a dock for the the ELB1200, if you do not want to run it off its battery in the studio. The Transmitter Pro gives you full control over the flashes, their individual power settings for both flash and modelling lights and does high speed sync for outdoor use. If TTL is a must, Elinchrom only offer one model, the battery powered ELB 500.

I am using Elinchrom's battery flashes and really like both their flashes and modifiers. I do also have a pair of older Elinchrom monolights, but they have not seen much use since I got the battery powered system. The USB RX transceiver and computer software sounds quite like Profoto's solution for complete control over the studio from a laptop. It allows you to save various lighting setups for different jobs/clients.

Depending on how you shoot, it can be a plus that Elinchrom lights are controllable from some Gossen and Sekonic light meters. In addition to triggering the flash via radio, they can also change the power output directly from the light meter. If flash duration matters much, the Sekonic 858 can display the measured flash duration in milliseconds. The ELC/ELB series display the flash duration for each power setting on their display.

It is worth noting that Elinchrom uses an absolute power scale for all their flashes. A setting of 4 equals the same output regardless of flash, be it 250Ws or a 1200Ws. Profoto uses a relative scale so a 5 only means the same output for flashes of the exact same model. If you know you will never mix flash models, that may not matter to you.

Canon's E-TTL would have to be much more reliable and consistent than Nikon's i-TTL before I'd trust it for demanding commercial work.

Just saying that it might be wise to 'try before you buy' WRT TTL control. In fact hiring the kit you have in mind would definitely be a good idea before committing to such a large purchase outlay. Or maybe lease-hire would be more sensible than buying outright?

@heimbrandt

Thank you. Yes I have considered Elinchrom but I'm concerned about their flash duration to freeze liquid and powder splashes. The t0.1 time should start around 1/4000s at a usable power. Elinchrom lists their t0.5 time, and I'm thinking a ballpark t0.1 time is to divide by 3...

[uSER=2403817]@rodeo_joe|1[/uSER]

Thank you. On TTL, I have no use for it in product shots, but has been useful in some outdoor shots with the Profoto B1's with clouds coming in and out. At the very least they give me a starting point quickly then override when needed. You make a good point about renting. I could rent a couple of D2's with a zoom reflector and do some comparisons first. I haven't been able to find good direct reviews comparing the two in great detail.

Elinchrom's Hi-Sync is not the same as HSS. There is more about it here: THE HI-SYNC EXPERIENCE

Dutch photographer Hans van Eijsden has measured the flash duration of his Elinchroms for every selectable power setting: Studio Lights: How to Take the Sharpest Pictures with Every Camera • Hans van Eijsden Photography It tells most of the story, as it does not take Hi-Sync into account.

Water splash photography is really not my speciality and I have a lot to learn about it. I did a quick test, pouring water into a glass. When I used my ringflash (long flash duration) I got blurred water at 1/250 but sharp droplets at 1/8000 (Hi-Sync). My Action heads (short flash duration) froze droplets at 1/250. My ringflash is suitable for Hi-Sync, whereas my Action heads are not. I do not have the HS heads (which are specific for high speed sync), only the S and A heads; Elinchrom recommends the HS head for outdoor Hi-Sync. Indoors, they recommend the Action heads for stopping motion.

Having said that, the ELCs appear to be capable of splash photography, even though they neither are recommended for Hi-Sync nor have the shortest flash duration:

THE PIGMENTS

I second rodeo_joe|1's suggestion on renting. Not only are you in for a substantial investment, you are also asking about a field not all studio photographers work in, so not all pro dealers can advice you.

The t0.1 time should start around 1/4000s at a usable power. Elinchrom lists their t0.5 time, and I'm thinking a ballpark t0.1 time is to divide by 3...

That relationship only works with full-power or capacitor-switching systems. Anything using thyristor or IGBT control shuts off the flash practically instantly at half 'power' or below, reducing the difference between t0.5 and t0.1 to an almost immeasurably short time - microseconds at most, more typically nanoseconds.

Elinchrom's Hi-Sync is not the same as HSS.

Understood. Until now I haven't seriously considered Hi-Sync for freezing splashes in the studio, thinking it was more or less the same as HyperSync. I've used fast flash durations to freeze water and powder at close distances, but need more depth of field (more power while keeping short flash durations). When outdoors I've used Profoto B1's HSS to freeze motion while controlling ambient light with shutter speed and also having the ability to keep my aperture wide open, it's all a balancing act. Profoto updated their firmware to use HSS over a 9 stop range (out of 10).

If Elinchrom perfected their own version of HyperSync, then Hi-Sync is something to consider since it appears you can get a lot more power. I wonder if there are major color or power fluctuations shot to shot with Hi-Sync.

I'm off to find out more about HS...

I'm off to find out more about HS...

Both HSS and Hi-Sync are just versions of what used to be called FP (Focal-Plane) synchronisation. The difference between it and 'normal' X-synch is that the flash is triggered just as the first shutter-blind begins to move; whereas X-synch fires the flash just as the first blind reaches the end of its travel.

HSS is purely a camera function. In other words, the synchronisation timing is changed in the camera, usually by attaching an HSS capable speedlight (or speedlite) and setting a shutter speed shorter than the X-synch speed. The change in synch timing is triggered by signals from the hotshoe auxilliary contacts, generated by an attached OEM flash - or so the camera makers designed it to be.

Of course, it would have been just as easy for camera mamufacturers to make the change from X to FP synch user switchable; like on old film cameras. But no, the *$$holes had to link it to their expensive speedlights - but I digress.

The point is, that once forced into FP-synch mode - AKA HSS or whatever - the camera can use any flash that has a duration longer than the transit time of the shutter. And this includes almost any old studio flash ever made at its full power setting.

It can also use any 'HSS' flash, whereby the flash output is turned into a series of extremely short pulses with extended duration.

The following are storage-oscilloscope traces of such an HSS-enabled flash:

The flash pulses are so short that they're inseparable at the 'scope timebase used.

The above is from an HSS enabled speedlight, but the principle is the same for a studio strobe (which quite literally becomes stroboscopic).

You can see that at full power there's no need for the extended pulses, because the natural decay of the flash is long enough to reasonably cover the shutter time.

There are two methods of 'tricking' cameras that support FP-synch into entering that mode. One is to simply fit an HSS-capable speedlight into the hotshoe - at which point the P-C socket also becomes an FP trigger.

The second method is to fit a gizmo that emulates an HSS speedlight into the hotshoe. It's this second trick, I believe, that Profoto and Elinchrom use with their special Hi-sync or HSS triggers.

There is a third trick that companies like Pocket Wizard use, and that's to use the TTL pre-flash signal as a timing reference to generate an artificial FP-synch signal. The pre-flash is fired at a repeatable interval before the shutter starts to open, and this signal can be used, after inserting a delay, to fire a studio flash. This third technique can be a bit hit-or-miss, and needs a bit of calibrating to set it up.

So, there you have it.

What used to be a simple flick of a switch, from 'X' to 'FP', has become a high-tech hoop-jumping exercise, with studio flash makers playing cat-and-mouse with obstinate camera makers.

Makes you wonder whose interest the maker of your camera system had in mind when they designed it; doesn't it? Not real professionals, that's for sure!

[uSER=2403817]@rodeo_joe|1[/uSER]

Thank you for helping me understand the finer points, it's helped me better put together info from @heimbrandt and other reading I've done.

I've used everything above but Hi-Sync, and I didn't realize today's sync options are derived from focal-plane synchronization, makes sense. I've been in to photography all of my life, but only started using studio strobes for about 10 years, and not worrying too much about different ways to freeze motion until fairly recently. It's all very interesting.

So from here it begs the question, is there a preferred method to freeze motion? Specifically close up water splashes where it's ideal to have enough power to have a reasonable depth of field and fast enough flash duration (t0.1 time) (or shutter speed) to freeze challenging fringe droplets. In these cases my lights are within a couple of feet from the action in a dark studio. I've been using short flash duration with PCB Einstein's and have had to crank up my ISO too much to try and get more depth of field. Since in action mode color temperatures vary with power I end up with, say, proper color on a milk splash but slightly blue shadows. This is why I've been looking at the Profoto D2's as (hopefully) a viable and more affordable option than the Profoto Pro-10's or Broncolor Scoro S packs and heads.

On the shutter speed side, Hi-Sync (HS), HyperSync, High Speed Sync (HSS) all have a maximum shutter speed of 1/8000s while t0.1 times can be much faster (but at a useful power?). The things going for HS is that it doesn’t seem to have the issues of HyperSync, and allows more power to the shot than HSS. I’m not sure which yields more usable power in comparison, t0.1 flash duration or HS? ... or am I totally off base?

Oooh. I think it's a close call between HS, which is limited by your camera's shutter, and using pulse-duration 'power' control on the flash. At least up to 1/8000th s.

Faster than that and you've no choice but to use short-duration flash.

The 1/8000th s barrier takes us down to about a 1/16th or 1/32nd power setting to get a similar flash duration. That's only just in double-figure watt-seconds from a 1000 w-s rated strobe; as you can see from your tables above.

The only way to get a short duration and more power would appear to be multiple high watt-second units. Although efficient modifiers, i.e. fresnel spots or silver brollies, would definitely help.

WRT colour consistency: I can't really help there, except to say that controlling the exposure time by using the camera shutter obviously won't alter the flash colour.

As a cheap alternative to having thousands of watt-seconds worth of studio strobes, I'd explore the possibilities of a stack of speedlights. These don't have to be expensive camera-brand models. A bunch of cheap YongNuos dialled down to 1/16th power would give a very short duration and a useable amount of light. - Just a thought!

[uSER=2403817]@rodeo_joe|1[/uSER]

I was afraid of that!

Many thanks to you and @heimbrandt for your extremely useful insight and information that helps bring my mind full circle on this. The good news is that there are a number of ways to get the job done, and the "best" way appears to depend on your situation and access to equipment. First, however, is to have a firm understanding on different methods and technologies. For me, I felt I had a good working understanding on the subject but now I have a much better and broader understanding. I relate this to my 20 years of expertise in audio engineering for live performances. When I help others in audio, it usually comes down to the basics: input / output, gain structure, and solid mixing technique. I bring this up because with two fields that attention to detail are king, the general answer seems to be the same... "it depends". And now I get it! lol

Hopefully this helps others down the line.

To complicate matters further; according to their marketing, Elinchrom have heads that have their shortest flash duration at full power - contrary to many other manufacturers.

I do believe that is why their ”weak” 400Ws heads/packs do so well with freezing action or overpowering the sun for high speed work in broad daylight.

Elinchrom Hi-Sync does not emitt a pulse, but I do believe the Elinchrom HSS mode of the ELB500 does (it has both modes).

When I tried my 400Ws ringflash yesterday, I got F11-16 @1.5’ and ISO 125 with 1/8000s. The pack was not at full power, if I recall correctly, I had about 1.5 stops more to use if I wanted to.

Why not make a shortlist and try to rent the options you may have narrowed it down to?

To complicate matters further; according to their marketing, Elinchrom have heads that have their shortest flash duration at full power - contrary to many other manufacturers. I do believe that is why their ”weak” 400Ws heads/packs do so well with freezing action or overpowering the sun for high speed work in broad daylight.

Understood.

When I tried my 400Ws ringflash yesterday, I got F11-16 @1.5’ and ISO 125 with 1/8000s. The pack was not at full power, if I recall correctly, I had about 1.5 stops more to use if I wanted to.

That's pretty impressive, especially if you're shooting full frame and close to your subject. Using a hard reflector?

Why not make a shortlist and try to rent the options you may have narrowed it down to?

That's exactly the direction I'm going. :-)