Development issue

Hello there, I get grayish trips on my negatives. Any idea what can cause that?

Here is an example of PANF 50 semi stand in Rodinal 1+100

Looks like only half the film has been fixed.

Did you use enough fixer to fill the tank?

"semi stand in Rodinal 1+100"

- Did you even agitate during fixing?

And what's with this recent fad for stand developing? Can nobody be bothered to tend to their developing anymore and tip a tank on end twice a minute?

Thank you for your answer.

Following the instruction on the Adox Fixer bottle, I used 420ml volume of a 1+7 solution of fixer and did gentle inversion in the first minute. Then more inversions around 6 min and at the end at 8 min.

I stand developed to control grain and get more informations in the middle tones.

This method has done well for some time but the last two rolls show these marks...

Here is a picture from one of these rolls...

Try fixing the film again. It looks like half the film hasn't been properly fixed.

Either that or it's been half-fogged. I can see that the effect extends beyond the frame boundaries.

If extended fixing (with inversions every 30 seconds - you can't 'stand' fix) doesn't, errr, fix the problem, then it's fog. But it certainly looks under fixed to me.

"I stand developed to control grain and get more informationsinthe middle tones."

-And do you actually see those effects? Or have you just read about them? Because neither of those are valid reasons for stand development. Stand development is used to provoke the 'edge' effect - Mackie lines - or to provide compensation for extreme subject contrast or overexposure. In the latter case it's more the dilution of the developer that limits contrast.

There's no evidence that stand development influences grain size.

Thank you guy It worked!! I have fixed the negative with proper shaking!

Concerning stand development, I read that it works well with Pan f 50. Next time I’d like to try normal development 1+50.

At first I used stand development for pushed films. Would you say 1+50 with gentle inversions 30 min does more or less the same than 1+100 gentle inversions every 30 min, 120 min?

I want to try 1+50 with gentle inversions on Tmax 400@1600 to see how it goes. Any experience pushing Tmax?

Look at the example you've posted immediately above. Do you notice the 'halo' effect around the backlit figure? And the fairly blotchy appearance of the rest of the sky area? That's due to stand development and lack of agitation.

The halo effect sort of works in that shot, but do you want that effect in every picture? I don't think so.

Far from reducing the grain, the grain I'm seeing in that example is far more noticeable than what I'd expect from Pan F. No matter what you do with Rodinal, it'll never give the finest grain. For that you need to use HC-110, Microdol or D-76/ID-11.

My advice would be to stop wasting time taking hours over a development technique that's unsuitable and inconsistent, and simply follow the instructions packed with the developer; using a sensible dilution where you know there's going to be enough active ingredient to develop the film properly.

Also, you cannot 'push' film much beyond its box speed. All that so-called push processing does is increase the contrast.

There's far too much BS about film and developing techniques thrown about on the internet. Most of it will waste your time and film, and lead you into poor technique that you're going to have to back up on and eventually unlearn.

Those guys that actually make the film and developer really do know what they're talking about. Just follow the instructions packed with the film and developer. At least until you know what you're doing, and more importantly why you're doing it.

Seems to me you're just following some really half-arsed 'advice' at the moment, and for no good reason.

Thanks for your advice. The main reason I got Rodinal in the first place was because it is supposed to be quite versatile. Also it has a very good shelf life and I can use it with a syringe. What am I going to do with a whole bottle of D 76 dilution if I develop 1-2 films per month? Is HC 110 any better? If I can use it the same way I use Rodinal, fair enough. Otherwise it is not going to be practical as I am not running a lab but doing some home development.

I get your point about the inconsistencies in development but here are pictures from other rolls developed using the same technique.

1- Kentmere 400 @1600

2- Rollei Retro 80s

I find the grain to be good on these, especially the 1st roll which tend to be rather grainy. The stand development gives a nice glow in the first picture. In the second one, contrasts are more controlled than typical Retro 80s. What do you think?

In the future I would increase the amount of inversion from 2 to 5 to avoid what happened with the Pan F roll:

1+100, inversions first minute + 5 inversions every 30 minutes;

0: 60 minutes, +1: 90 minutes, +2: 120 minutes as general guidelines.

HC-110 'syrup' keeps for a long time.

I see nothing in those shots that warrants, or has benefitted from, stand development. But if you have several hours to waste developing each film.....

I dare say you don't even bother to check the temperature of your solutions throughout the development era?

And why aren't you just using one or two film(s) and getting used to it/them? Constant chopping-and-changing of materials is the enemy of making progress with your technique.

What's more important - getting good pictures and knowing they're not going to get ruined during processing? Or constantly experimenting in the hope of finding some 'holy grail' of film and development technique? Which definitely doesn't exist BTW.

Unless you expect to turn pro, just have fun and learn from your mistakes. You've already made one big one, and it won't be your last. Heck, if you want to try developing your film in Vodka, go for it. (Nah, Vodka won't work and it's a heck of a waste of booze)

The point I'm trying to make here is don't get hung up on a lot of technical BS. For the most part, follow the manufacture's directions, But if you want to experiment, why not.

OK, a + for stand development. I use HC-110 1+120. My first few tries with stand were disappointing, but in the last year or so, it really has worked quite well. I think my fine tuning will consist of shorter times at room temperature. My film has been UFX 400, both 35 and 120. "Ornello" at Digital Truth has been putting stand development down, as has Rodeo Joe. I agree: unless you need absolute perfection in every roll because your living depends on it, experiment to your heart's content. If HC-110 stand was good enough for

St. Ansel, I guess it is good enough for me.

Jim

OK, a + for stand development. I use HC-110 1+120. My first few tries with stand were disappointing, but in the last year or so, it really has worked quite well. I think my fine tuning will consist of shorter times at room temperature. My film has been UFX 400, both 35 and 120. "Ornello" at Digital Truth has been putting stand development down, as has Rodeo Joe. I agree: unless you need absolute perfection in every roll because your living depends on it, experiment to your heart's content. If HC-110 stand was good enough for

St. Ansel, I guess it is good enough for me.

Jim

Well, Ansel Adams certainly shot a whole mess of film and was not an infrequent photographer/developer. The OP was a about an error and the advise given was to simplify to avoid these types of issues. Stand dev. has been debated from one side to the next. I've tried it and got some very minor benefits, but for me the benefits are not worth the time. IMHO, the advise to avoid this type of development for an amateur is good advise.

I will add my two-bits here since the choice of films is right up my alley ! Kentmere400 & Retro80. Exposing the Kentmere at 1600 is a waste of good film. Over the last 5-7 years my choice is 250asa on the meter. Primarily I use pyro based developers (PyrocatHD & Obsidian Aqua) between 13-16min. These times are MY times, so test them if you want to try pyro. Also, all my films (120 or 35) are developed in a Nikor 450ml tank. 3ml of HD or 1.1ml of OA does the trick. Development starts with a 3 min DI water presoak.

80s is the one film where I use Rodinal (mine is +6 yrs old !) and it is done with a semi-stand routine. 3min presoak, 30secs of continuous agitation when developer is introduced & once over n up's @ 2m, 5m,10m,20m & dump @ 40m. I use 3ml of Rodinal in the 450ml tank, 35mm or 120 film.

Some may go nuts with these "methods", but again, they are my work-ups to satisfy My Requirements !

Here is the most recent work from my Fed-2 / Jupiter-8 combo. Kentmere400 & PyrocatHD. Aloha, Bill

If HC-110 stand was good enough for

St. Ansel, I guess it is good enough for me.

- Let's get this clear; Ansel Adams did not use stand development as a regular practise. He used very dilute HC-110 as a compensating developer when it was needed to constrain highlight density. He also used quite a short time - about 18 minutes - and agitated the film every 3 minutes. The temperature was maintained at 68 F. That's not really stand development.

The film Ansel treated with that semi-stand development would also have been in a format greater than 35mm, such that any edge effect wouldn't have looked glaringly obvious.

What Ansel is never documented as doing is walking away and leaving film to stew for 2 hours in homeopathic dilutions of Rodinal!

If you actually read 'The Negative', you'll see that he describes his test development procedure thus: "All films were developed at 68 F. Roll films were processed ...... with agitation for 5 seconds every 30 seconds." He then goes on to give tables of times and dilutions in HC-110; none of which exceed 12 minutes.

He further states of HC-110:

"The most frequently used dilutions are Dilution A .... and Dilution B ... For minus development I mix the stock solution 1:15 with water, and for compensating effect I dilute the stock solution 1:31 or weaker."

Adams nowhere recommends stand development as a normal procedure, and compensating development is only touched on in passing, and to be reserved for long brightness-range subjects.

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I will mention Diafine.

I learned about Diafine from my grandfather 50 years ago, and it has been my favorite ever since.

(I now have HC-110, mostly for use with older film.)

Diafine is a compensating developer that isn't stand, so it does in 7 minutes

(inlcude pour time) what you do in an hour or more. Also, it does it over a

wide temperature range, and for film independent times.

Diafine does have recommended EI values that are higher than box, though for most

modern films not much higher. For PanF+ Diafine recommends EI 80, over

the box speed of 50.

Many people like Tri-X in Diafine at EI 1200 or 1600.

Also, Diafine last close to forever. I recently mixed up a new batch, with the

old batch 7 years old.

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I will mention Diafine.

 

I learned about Diafine from my grandfather 50 years ago, and it has been my favorite ever since.

 

(I now have HC-110, mostly for use with older film.)

 

Diafine is a compensating developer that isn't stand, so it does in 7 minutes

(inlcude pour time) what you do in an hour or more. Also, it does it over a

wide temperature range, and for film independent times.

 

Diafine does have recommended EI values that are higher than box, though for most

modern films not much higher. For PanF+ Diafine recommends EI 80, over

the box speed of 50.

 

Many people like Tri-X in Diafine at EI 1200 or 1600.

 

Also, Diafine last close to forever. I recently mixed up a new batch, with the

old batch 7 years old.

Wow, I didn't realize it kept that long. Thanks.

Best,

Henry

Simplest explanation is that Diafine separates the developing agent from the alkali.

It isn't in the easily oxidizable state until it is alkaline. You still want to keep it in sealed

bottles with the air removed, but if you do, it lasts.

But you lose a little with each roll, some soaks into the film, some drips out of the tank,

and after some years, you don't have enough anymore.

The compensating effect works, as part A with the developing agent soaks into

the film. Then pour that out.

Part B is the alkaline part, maybe very strong carbonate. That starts the actual

development, in competition with part A diffusing out of the film. Highlights will

use up the available A fast, and stop developing. Shadows will continue to

develop, until too much A has diffused out.

Simplest explanation is that Diafine separates the developing agent from the alkali.

 

It isn't in the easily oxidizable state until it is alkaline. You still want to keep it in sealed

bottles with the air removed, but if you do, it lasts.

 

But you lose a little with each roll, some soaks into the film, some drips out of the tank,

and after some years, you don't have enough anymore.

 

The compensating effect works, as part A with the developing agent soaks into

the film. Then pour that out.

 

Part B is the alkaline part, maybe very strong carbonate. That starts the actual

development, in competition with part A diffusing out of the film. Highlights will

use up the available A fast, and stop developing. Shadows will continue to

develop, until too much A has diffused out.

Cool beans man! Thanks again.

Best,

Henry

I’ll try developing with a standard method but what does it mean? 60 sec agitation plus agitation every minute, where agitation is synonym of inversion?

Here is an example: I got a TMax 400 pushed 2 stops that I want to develop in Rodinal. How can I do 1+25 or 1+50?

Practically

I’ll try developing with a standard method but what does it mean? 60 sec agitation plus agitation every minute, where agitation is synonym of inversion?

 

Here is an example: I got a TMax 400 pushed 2 stops that I want to develop in Rodinal. How can I do 1+25 or 1+50?

You’ll find instructions for TMax here,http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/f4043_tmax_400.pdf but Rodinal isn’t one of the recommended developers ( ‘cos it ‘ain’t Kodak). You’ll find other instructions for this on the Massive Dev chart. You might want to steer clear of pushing film if you are just starting out. All you are doing is under exposing the film, and giving yourself a headache trying to get good negatives from an underexposed film. Best stick with one film, one developer, stick RIGIDLY to the manufacturers instructions. Do this for at least 20 films. If you find negatives are lacking in shadow detail, set a lower ISO on your camera, but DONT CHANGE ANYTHING ELSE. Constantly changing films, developers, dilutions, agitation regimes etc. will unfortunately teach you nothing (I’ve been there!). As pointed out by several posters above, there really is no advantage from deviating from the recommended time, temperature and dilution unless you are an expert. Most amateurs will never become expert. Despite what you read out there on the internet, most film/ developer combinations look practically identical if developed correctly. If it’s a great picture, it’ll be a great picture on any normal film developer combo, so I would concentrate on composition, stick to one film and method, and do what it says on the instructions! Persevere, have fun, and aim for consistency!

As far as agitation goes, it's pretty simple:

1. Fill the tank with developer and bang it down on the work-surface a couple of times to dislodge any air bubbles.

2. Turn the tank over twice in the space of about 5 seconds - i.e. invert, wait for the air to bubble through the tank, turn the tank back upright and repeat.

3. Every 30 seconds repeat but with just one inversion.

4. Keep doing (3) until 30 seconds before the developing time is up.

5. About 10 seconds before the end of the required developing time, start to empty the tank.

6. When the developing time is up, fill the tank with rinse water or stop-bath as you wish.

Proceed to the fixing stage, following the same twice-a-minute agitation.

All processing baths should be kept at the same temperature - usually 20 C/68 F - including the first stages of the final wash. You can gradually lower the wash temperature to tap-water temperature over a period of a few minutes.

There's absolutely no need for fancy figure-of-eight or other stupid wrist callisthenics during inverting the tank. The film just doesn't care how it gets upside-down. Leave such silly antics to the bozos that create 'how to' videos on the web!