How to know if mixed D-76 has expired?

It has also had some black sediments after the process, since it was mixed.

- That'll be silver particles. The high sodium sulphite content of D-76 is a silver solvent, which gives it the ability to be a partial 'physical' developer. In other words it plates out the dissolved silver onto development sites within the film.

The sodium sulphite also acts to regenerate the oxidised developing agents, and in doing so it releases some of the dissolved silver as a fine particulate sediment. The silver may also plate out onto dust particles that find their way into the developer. Commercial 3 gallon tanks of D-76 in heavy use would build up quite a sludge in the bottom, as well as getting silver plated inside.

"What do you mean by “stain”?"

- I think it was a typo for 'strain' - filter.

"What do you mean by “stain”?"

- I think it was a typo for 'strain' - filter.

Thank you

I tried paper towel one night out of desperation, it worked ok but I was conscious of the fact I needed something better. Lining a funnel with it and pouring slowly in the side of the funnel caught all the sediment and I didn't notice any spots on the developed film. I used it only because I had nothing else suitable at the time

Funny thing, I also have a bottle of stock D-76, three years old, unused but with sediment, it's full to the top and hasn't been opened since I mixed it. I must try it soon with a test strip of two or three images and see how it goes. I'll post them here when I get them done

There is filter paper designed for use in chemistry labs, which comes in circles.

You make one in the shape of a cone and put it in a funnel.

Easier to find for ordinary people are coffee filters, which you can get in ordinary grocery stores.

Not quite as good, you can pour out of the bottle, leaving the last few ml, along with much of the sediment, in the bottle.

I also have a funnel with a filter, but that probably still lets through the smaller grains.

@glen_h and @kmac , thanks for the recommendations about filters.

[uSER=2403817]@rodeo_joe|1[/uSER] , I don’t understand the technicalities of your explanation. Does what you describe happen commonly? I am not sure we are talking about the same problem. My particles are black and scale-like, I mean, they are flat but with irregular shape. They appear every time I develop and I use D-76 one-shot. This particular problem doesn’t seem to be common, or else everybody would be talking about it.

Curiously, I also get the particles after developing with Kodak Flexicolor developer, so I don’t discern what is going on.

Yes, I could filter this dirt. But that makes me loose time and coffee filters. And, more importantly, sometimes the particles stick to the film. So this is why it would be in interesting to detect the problem and solve it. I will post a different thread about this.

Thank you.

Funny thing, I also have a bottle of stock D-76, three years old, unused but with sediment, it's full to the top and hasn't been opened since I mixed it. I must try it soon with a test strip of two or three images and see how it goes. I'll post them here when I get them done

I've brought this thread back to post two images scanned from a Shanghi GP3 100ASA film developed in old undiluted unused working D76 developer. The developer isn't three years old as I thought, it's actually 5years 7months old. The brown bottle has "Mixed Date 28th Oct 2013" written on it by my own hand. It was left over from a larger mixed batch and stored properly with the bottle full to the brim and the lid tight. It had been in my chemical cabinet which is in the laundry insulated from temperature extremes and light. The developer had minimal sediment which I filtered out just before processing the GP3

Both exposure, developing and scanning was done today. Dev time was 8mins at 20c, agitation first min, every 30secs thereafter, plus rinse, fix for 10mins and tap wash. The film itself had expired in April 2016 but has been frozen since then. Scanner was Epson V800, 1200dpi EpsonScan software.

I'd love to hear a comment from Alan Marcus about this capability of 5 year old D76. Do the images surprise you Alan ?

The first image is uncropped with no post processing. The second image has been cropped on all four sides and with a little post processing. Camera was Kiev 60 with standard 80mm f2.8 lens

The main reason I'm using HC-110 is its excellent shelf life, but if D76 can last five years...

It's funny, I shoot a lot of expired film and unless it's really, really old, I rarely have any problems with the results. One wonders whether Kodak saw conservative expiration dates as a way to increase sales.

It's funny, I shoot a lot of expired film and unless it's really, really old, I rarely have any problems with the results. One wonders whether Kodak saw conservative expiration dates as a way to increase sales.

I guess Kodak had their scientific standards for tonal range and density etc. Their research into emulsion deterioration probably set the expiry dates. Exceeding the expiry date by just a short time would result in deterioration that only Kodak could assess with it's sensitive measuring devices perhaps, the film deviating from Kodak's standards. Exceeding the expiry date by years or decades, if not frozen, problems then become clearer to the naked eye as I saw in this ...

'83 unprotected Verichrome Pan exposed and developed in 2016. One extra stop exposure and developed normally. Strange blotches throughout the neg

With the 5year 7month old D76, I did a second development of Shanghi GP3 the other night and the negs were fine. The only difference with the developer from the first development was that sediment once again appeared and was black specks whereas the sediment the first time was white fluffy stuff. So it seems that sediment needs to be filtered out every time before use. I really don't know how many good developments this old D76 has in it but I'll keep using it to find out

D-76 is cheap. Use it diluted 1:1 and throw it away after one use. The unused portion will last for at least 2 months. That way it doesn't get mixed with air, and doesn't get exhausted through use. I like the extended development time, and the way dilution opens up shadow detail. D-76 development is grainy, but with very high acuity. It is practically all I used in college and while working at a local newspaper.

Developer is a mixture of disparate chemicals, particle size and density. There is no way you can mix and divide a small portion accurately. It takes a V-blender and constant agitation to keep it from separating in production. If composition is critical, as with pharmaceuticals and gunpowder, mixtures are usually granulated - combined with a binder so each particle has the same composition, then compressed into tablets or pellets.

While I understand that developer is fairly expensive, I'm going to assume that film is ALSO expensive and not to be wasted. Trash the developer and find a better way to buy and mix smaller quantities that will be used more quickly. Mixing by the gallon isn't a savings if your not processing enough to go through it.

For the future, two part developers have a much better shelf life.

I guess Kodak had their scientific standards for tonal range and density etc. Their research into emulsion deterioration probably set the expiry dates. Exceeding the expiry date by just a short time would result in deterioration that only Kodak could assess with it's sensitive measuring devices perhaps, the film deviating from Kodak's standards. Exceeding the expiry date by years or decades, if not frozen, problems then become clearer to the naked eye as I saw in this ...

 

'83 unprotected Verichrome Pan exposed and developed in 2016. One extra stop exposure and developed normally. Strange blotches throughout the neg

 

[ATTACH=full]1297061[/ATTACH]

 

 

With the 5year 7month old D76, I did a second development of Shanghi GP3 the other night and the negs were fine. The only difference with the developer from the first development was that sediment once again appeared and was black specks whereas the sediment the first time was white fluffy stuff. So it seems that sediment needs to be filtered out every time before use. I really don't know how many good developments this old D76 has in it but I'll keep using it to find out

Sure, but your example was 33 years old. :)

I'm wondering how many people in the days before digital would toss out film that was a few months passed the expiration date while at the same time using a cheap camera with a poorly calibrated meter and shutter.

I'm not trying to be a camera snob in the least. Just saying that there's lots of variables that can affect picture quality a lot more than film that's a little past its prime. I'm still working on a brick of a house brand (York) color film that expired in 2010.

On the other hand there were probably many folks who paid no attention to expiration dates.

I learned very young to check the "past date" boxes at photo shops.

I knew that just past date, it had to be pretty close to just before date.

Note that some people also throw out food just past the date, when again, it doesn't

go bad so suddenly. Even more, much food has a "sell by" date, or a "best by",

neither of which are expiration dates. Canned food will last a long time, as long

as the original seal is intact. (Many years.)

The original seal is also important for film. Moisture is especially bad for film.

But note that the dates have to be set not knowing the storage conditions, including the warmest

southern house without air-conditioning. I have bought past date film from a store that keeps all

film refrigerated. My basement darkroom stays cool enough, even in summer.

Black and white film lasts longer, and the cost for developing is less.

My developer usage got so small and unpredictable that I started mixing from scratch with raw chemicals. D-76 is easy to make and you can make as much or as little as you'll use in a reasonable amount of time. The raw chemicals keep near to forever. The initial outlay is a bit more, but the end product should be cheaper.

That may be the way for me to go. I've been using HC-110 recently but don't like the results as much as I did with D-76. My needs are pretty sporadic as well. In the Summer I tend to shoot more color and I use the long warm days for other pursuits as opposed to processing film.

It's not that I think D-76 is outrageously expensive but it's a waste for me to mix up a gallon even though it's a cheaper way to purchase than the 1 liter kits. And since photography expenses come out of my "fun money", I'm sensitive to the cost as I use my fun money for a lot of things. You can never have too much fun !

Luckily I'm able to subsidize the expenses a bit by fixing old cameras and selling them. And sometimes people will just give me their old cameras. A lot of the film I shoot are more or less test rolls from cameras I don't intend to keep.

Unreplenished D76 is supposed to be 250ml per 120 or 135-36 roll.

That means four rolls per liter, or 16 per gallon. And yes, the gallon bags don't cost all that

much more than the liter bags, but aren't all that cheap, either.

Unreplenished HC-110 is 250ml of dilution B per 120 or 135-36 roll.

That is 128 rolls per liter bottle of concentrate. (About the same

number of rolls for other dilutions.)

Also, HC-110 is supposed to be better than most when used with older

film, which I do often enough. Some of that is film in sizes that they

don't make anymore, where I would buy new film if they did make it.

My other choice for developer is Diafine, which I have been using since

I learned about it from my grandfather 50 years ago. Diafine lasts close

to forever, with ordinary precautions. When I was young, I liked the speed

increase from Diafine. Modern films have less speed increase, and I am

not quite as interested in it as I used to be.

I did a lot of yearbook photography in 7th and 8th grade, available light

in classrooms with Tri-X and Diafine.