Upgrading from a D800/D800E to a...?

Just wondering if anyone who was or is on the upgrade path from a D800/D800E (or a D810) to a D850 still on that upgrade path or have the Z6 and Z7 made you rethink that path? Just curious....

 

-Keith

I had a D800 and soon realised the D800E would offer a noticeable improvment in image quality. I got my D800 for a steal and sold it for much more than I paid for it. That helped me justify getting a D800E in mint condition with warranty. The D810 was still much more expensive and only offered slightly better af (for me).

 

While I tought I could be happy with the D800E for years, I still felt its af could be better (for birds and indoor show jumping) and that I often wanted to be able to crop slightly more than its DX mode would allow for. I took a long hard look at both the D850 and the D500. Borrowed the D850 for a week and rented a D500 for a weekend. As I only wanted one camera I decided to go for the D850. Or so I thought; Nikon had revealed the Z6/7 and I felt I had to wait until I could get my hands on a Z7 to see for myself if I should get the D850 or the Z7. Ibis was really appealing since it would give me VR with non-stabilized lenses (stabilized super teles really do cost a lot more than non-VR glass do). The Z7’s better live view af mean it could finally be useful for video. It took one pan, following a taxi, to realize the evf was not for me. If I was to use that for flying birds with foliage backgrounds or jumping horses in indoor arenas, I would get dizzy. I checked the available settings but could not get past the limits of the evf. While I am not a huge fan of Nikon’s 3D tracking, I still find it nice to have. Add to that the unknown release date for the battery pack (I do not call it grip as it will not have a trigger). I often use my camera on a gimbal head and appreciate both the vertical trigger and the added weight from the battery grip. I liked the Z7, but for my intended use, the D850 was still the better choice.

 

Since I knew what the D850 was capable of, I got one, a grip, some D4/5 batteries and was lucky enough to find a used MH-26 charger for clone charger money. I have not looked back at the Z-series since. While I would love have stabilization on my PC-E85/2.8D it really is a tripod lens once you use tilt. Video? Well yes af could be a lot better but I really do not use my camera much for video.

 

I like the D850, it gets the job done all the time and I feel confident that I will still like in a couple of years from now. I still feel I made the right choice.

 

However, if fast moving action is not your cup of tea, a Z7 might make more sense or even be the better choice. Both are highly capable cameras.

Thanks. I actually own a D800e and a D500. For anything that moves and requires reach, I use my D500. I was casually thinking about the Z7 rather than a D850 for everything else. I’ll be using Nikon AF-G glass as well as Sigma ART lenses (which I confirmed are fully compatible with the Nikon FTZ adapter). As you said, it would be nice to have in-body VR.

Own D810 and D500 as well as Sony A7II/A7RII. Not looking for any upgrade right now with either system (and not interested in video at all) Mostly landscape and travel with the FX bodies and avian as well as airshow photography with DX. If I had to replace the D810 in the near future (before there's a Z-lens system to speak of), I'd most likely go for the D850 or throw the entire Nikon FX system onto the market and go fully Sony with their 3rd generation A7 and A7R bodies. Otherwise, I'll keep the D810 until the 2nd generation Z mirrorless is revealed - hopefully eliminating the issues of the 1st and not following the general Nikon philosophy of giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

I too have a D800E and a D500, and I also have a D750, among other Nikon DSLRs. Recently I got a Z6 with the 24-70S kit lens.

 

If the choice is between the D850 and Z7, it highly depends on what kind of subjects you mostly shoot. While the Z6 and Z7 are Nikon's "first generation" FX mirrorless, Nikon have plenty of mirrorless experience from the Nikon 1 series over many years, plus I am sure Nikon has looked carefully into Sony R's pros and cons. Generally I am quite happy with the Z6. The EVF is very good, especially under low-light conditions; it gives you a much clearer view. During the day, I think I still prefer the OVF and I do have the feeling that looking into the EVF is like watching TV vs. watching the real thing.

 

IMO the main weakness of the Z6, and presumably Z7, is AF on fast-moving subjects such as birds in flight and sports. I am sure the D500 and D850's AF are far superior for moving subjects. Otherwise, for still subjects or slow-moving ones, the Z6's AF is fine.

 

If you shoot a lot of landscape, maybe you'll like the Z7. You can get virtual horizon in the EVF and that helps my composition. New wide-angle lenses designed for mirrorless should be superior to their SLR counterparts since there is no need for any mirror clearance. Obviously the Z7 and especially Z6 are better for video.

 

I think the safer choice is the D850 in the next year or two. Once Nikon has more native Z-mount lenses and the Z bodies get to a second or third generation, and I am sure there will be some third-party Z-mount lenses, the entire Z system will be a lot more attractive. Personally I would rather not use any adapter, including the FTZ, but some people don't mind adapters at all. Only you'll know for yourself. Since the FTZ pushes any lens forward, you will end up with a somewhat front heavy system.

 

BTW, the Z6 and Z7 are fairly small cameras. I personally prefer something larger such as the D750 or D850. You need to hold them yourself to decide.

...For anything that moves and requires reach, I use my D500. I was casually thinking about the Z7 rather than a D850 for everything else...

As you said, it would be nice to have in-body VR.

To me the D850’s main selling point is that it replaces both a D500 and a D800E/D810 (on which it improves on) in a single body. While the Z7 would offer VR for all lenses, it does so with a trade-off in both af, speed and viewfinder (for fast moving action). If you will keep the D500, that may matter less and even giving you more shooting options by adding the Z7. I neither need nor want multiple bodies and thus went for the ”do-everything” D850.

I have my D850, with no imminent buyer's remorse about the Z series. The grip that takes me to 9fps (in 14-bit, with metering) helps. I do just enough chasing of unexciting wildlife that the AF performance and buffer of the D850 matter to me (although since I came from other D8x0 bodies, clearly not that much), and I'd miss them on a Z series - with the understanding that I'm missing out on some video capabilities and my AF accuracy may be worse under some circumstances, plus the SD card is handy. I have a plentiful wish list for improving on the D850 other than what the Z series offers, and I'm sure future Z bodies will bypass some of their current disadvantages. So no promise that I won't look at the Z system in the future, especially as the lenses ramp up, but for now I'm happy with what I've got.

Keith, I think it would help if you can tell us a little more about what type of subjects you tend to capture. And you need to hold a Z7 (or Z6) in hand; look through the EVF to see whether you like that type of cameras or not. On the other hand, the D850 will be quite familiar since you have a D800E and D500. The D850 is more or less the FX version of the D500 with similar memory-card arrangements.

 

As I said earlier, most likely the D850 is the safer choice at this point. While I am happy as an early adapter of the Z6, I think for most people, the Z system will be more attractive in another year or two.

 

Meanwhile, I am a bit reluctant to add F-mount lenses unless it is a lens I want very much, e.g. the 500mm PF, since I may gradually shift to the Z mount.

Thanks everyone. Where I would use a D850 or Z6/7 would be for landscapes, street, portraits, macro, general travel, etc... So it’s about 70-80% of what I do. Where I prefer my D500 (and long tele lenses) are sports and wildlife, including BIF. As Shun has said, the D850 has the familiarity factor going for it, as well as shooting F-mount lenses.

 

Where the Z body is appealing (maybe to me only) is the fact that I can mount adapted lenses. I currently also own a Fuji XT-2 with some AF lenses, although I also use M-mount lenses (yes, I still do shoot film on occasion). I also used to have a Sony A7R ( did not care for the ergonomics so I sold it). A Nikon Z would serve as a single platform for my Nikon AFS G lenses as well as a FF body for adapted lenses, especially M-mount lenses.

 

As I said, I’m still only casually thinking about this at this time. Still a lot of things to consider.

 

Thanks,

Keith

Keith, thanks for the additional information and the fact that you already have plenty of experience with mirrorless. It sounds like you are a good candidate to give the Z6/Z7 a try, but only you can decide whether you like those Z cameras or not.

Thanks Shun. One of the things that I’m trying to find out is if adapted wide angle M-mount lenses with a symmetrical design, e.g.,, Biogon, would display edge smearing on a full frame Z body. It was a problem with the A7R until I had the body modified by Kolari. It does not appear to be any issue with the APS-C mount of the Fuji XT-2.

One thing I am quite certain about is that 46MP will be demanding on the optics, in the sense that it will do a much better job revealing any flaws in your lenses, regardless of whether it is a D850 or Z7.

While I believe Nikon may have adjusted the microlens arrangement on the Z bodies to allow for a rear nodal point nearer the sensor (so more of an indirect angle of incidence), I'm not sure they'll have gone as far as the offset Leica use to allow for lenses that almost touch the sensor; remember Leica actually have colour shift correction to handle light hitting the Bayer filters at funny angles. I think(?) I heard something about the filter stack being thinner on the Z series, which may help a little, though. Digital correction does wonders for lenses with smeary corners, in my experience - my 14-24 looks quite iffy until DxO has done its thing.

 

For the things Keith shoots, a Z body - both in terms of being small(ish) and light(ish) (I note that they're way bigger than a D3500...) and in terms of the silent shutter might be appealing. The D850 shutter is on the loud side, particularly compared with the D810's, and it's been commented on. (You can use the silent shutter on the D850, but you lose phase-detect AF, so it's a last resort for me.) Perhaps I'd have slight hesitation over reports of mild banding caused by the PDoS strips, but nobody claims that's particularly significant. I'd certainly not rule out a Z body in the way that I have - but then I find the line between wildlife and landscape to be quite thin.

Hi Keith, The new Nikon mirrorless bodies do not have the features I need so I am sticking with my Nikon DSLRs for now. If you need the capabilities of the D 850 for landscapes, etc I would consider it an excellent choice for landscapes and it can also serve as a a good wildlife/nature/ fast fps camera too as another poster has already pointed out. If it is too expensive consider adding a used Nikon D 810. It has some features not found on the D 800/800e. I currently shoot with a D 500 for nature and BIF and a D810 for just about everything else. I still use my D800e for situations where I want a different lens on a second FF body.

think(?) I heard something about the filter stack being thinner on the Z series

1.1mm, not quite half as thick as what Sony uses but still 0.3mm thicker than the one in the Leica M9. Not sure newer Leica M sensors still use the angled microlenses though. If I am not mistaken, then 1.1mm is also the cover glass Kolari uses when modifying A7-series cameras (though I believe there's a thinner option either already available or in the works).

 

One issue I would have with adapting M-mount lenses onto the Nikon Z-mount cameras is that the difference in mount sizes is just too large especially smaller Leica lenses look kind of funny adapted on a Z camera.

Keith, I just read this post by Jim Kasson over on DPReview:

Re: Am I crazy to go back to D850 from z7? Opinions please!: Nikon Z Mirrorless Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

 

I don't know Kasson personally, but he lives about 1.5 hours driving from me. Apparently he is a retired electrical engineer and has plenty of cameras, including Sony mirrorless, Z7, D810 and D850 plus many many lenses. He seems to have the time and money to try out a lot of different equipment.

 

I would focus on the 2nd half of his post when he is not responding to a previous post, although he is mostly reinforcing issues we have already discussed on this thread. 2, 3 years ago, I would favor DSLRs for most things. We have reached a point that DSLRs and mirrorless have their pros and cons, and not surprisingly both Canon and Nikon are introducing FX mirrorless in this juncture. Maybe in another 2, 3 years, the balance will tilt towards mirrorless; we'll see.

Edited December 20, 2018 by ShunCheung

Thanks Shun - interesting read. Edited December 20, 2018 by photo_galleries

There are advantages to EVFs, no doubt.

 

A feature I really like about the D850 is the split screen zoom in live view. It appears that it was a new feature with the D810. I have not seen many reviewers comment on it when they tested the D810 and the D850. The same goes for user comments about it beeing used. I guess people either do not like it or maybe even do not know about it. Mr. Kasson’s post made me think he might to appreciate it on a DSLR (perhaps used with a hood).

 

Not sure what I am talking about? Here is the NPS page describing the feature:

D810 TIPS | Technical Solutions | Nikon Professional Services

 

I feel that since I am able to use that for landscape and close-up work (with my PC-E lens), I kind of get the best of both worlds.

Just wondering if anyone who was or is on the upgrade path from a D800/D800E (or a D810) to a D850 still on that upgrade path or have the Z6 and Z7 made you rethink that path? Just curious....

 

-Keith

Sit on the fence.

MILC are becoming more mature, the main trends will be in just that sector.

After eyes recognition there are looming perspectives of in-camera automatic retouching and using of such software in the camera.

I do understang huge advantages of EVF.

I would not spent on top class SRL at this point.

At least in my mind, if one mainly photographs still subjects such as landscape, mirrorless could be the way too go now. Auto focus in top-of-the-line DSLRs such as the D850 and D500 still have some pretty significant advantages, at least over Nikon mirrorless cameras available today such as the Z7 and Z6.

 

In the middle of a lot of mirrorless introduction in August and September prior to PhotoKina, Canon had upgraded their 600mm/f4 and 400mm/f2.8 to new versions that are much lighter. The new lenses continue to have Canon's FE mount for EOS SLRs, and one needs to use adapters to mount those new lenses on the new Canon RF mirrorless. Nikon has just added the 500mm/f5.6 PF and earlier this year the 180-400mm/f4 AF-S VR. It looks like for action photography, DSLRs will continue to dominate for (at least) a few more years. That is why I fully expect a D6 from Nikon before the Tokyo Olympics.

 

And recently I experienced the disadvantage of having only one memory card. Not a card failure but rather a human (me) error. I took the card out from my Z6 to upload and forgot to put it back into the camera. I have done that on other DSLRs a few times before, but there was always a second card in the camera to save the day. This time I was out with the Z6 with no memory card inside. In each one of my camera bags, there is always an extra SD card and an extra EN-EL15 battery, but that SD card didn't do me any good. From now on, there will be an extra XQD card in each camera bag for me.

This time I was out with the Z6 with no memory card inside

Hopefully, the LOCK SHUTTER when no card present was set. I often why the option still exists?

Hopefully, the LOCK SHUTTER when no card present was set. I often why the option still exists?

I found out that I had no memory card inside the Z6 as soon as I attempted to take the first image, but I had no XQD card with me so that I had a useless camera at the Christmas party, where I was just a participant, and had to use my phone to take some pictures.

 

If I were an official photographer, of course I would have multiple cameras and plenty of backup: lenses, cards, batteries, and flashes.

 

As I said I have done similar things before, but dual cards always saved me. From now on I’ll have a spare XQD card in the bag.

Not that I'm in any rush to buy a new body, but as I go over current use cases:

• D500 and 200-500mm for wildlife, including BIF
  
• D800e with Sigma ART lenses (24, 35, 50) for some general use -- I just love the IQ and rendering of the Sigma ART lenses, especially wide open
  
• D800e with 18-35mm and 70-300mm - day trips and local travel
  
• D800e with Sigma 150mm macro and R1C1 (with multiple SB-R200s) CLS system
  
• Fuji XT-2 and AF lenses - general use and international travel
  
• RF film - for B&W film, when I'm feeling nostalgic and feel like spending time in the darkroom (less and less these days)
  

Where the Z body might come in is to replace the D800E and possibly some of the Fuji use cases.

IMO, in 3-4 years we'll see a looming perspective of top-pro camera from Nikon (in the class of A9) with noiseless 30-40 fps and so on. We'll see the new super sharp 50/1.2 or 50/1.0 in the class of new Canon's R and a lot of ....

So it's up to you.

Where the Z body might come in is to replace the D800E

But what is gained from that "upgrade"? A little bit of weight saving (on the order of 150g when the weight of the FTZ adapter is taken into account). The option to shoot in quiet mode. A higher frame rate - but with caveats regarding AF and metering. A bit more resolution. Better performance at higher ISO? The main advantages seem to be with shooting video.

 

For Nikon shooters the main advantage of the Z cameras over Sony's offerings are the much better adaptability of Nikon F/G-mount lenses via the FTZ adapter. The differences in handling and UI are minor - especially as long as one photographs relatively static subjects only.