Lubrication for self-timer mechanism?

Hello all,

 

It's been quite a while since I read or posted here - it's good to see that the site is still up and running and still popular.

 

I have a question about what if any lubrication to use on a mechanical self-timer mechanism. The camera is a Petri 7s rangefinder with the shutter and everything built into the lens assembly. You can see see an example here (not my photos). The self-timer had a problem which I fixed (an out of place spring), but I noticed the movement was still quite stiff and that there didn't appear to be any grease or oil, nor on the shutter mechanism for that matter.

The various places I have looked give advice from washing it out with lighter fluid and don't add any form of lubricant, to using a small amount of lithium grease, or using machine oil. So I am not sure what to do. Does anyone have any advice? This could apply to the shutter mechanism too.

Thanks in advance.

Laurie

How often do you use the self-timer? Almost never I'm guessing, and that's the reason they seize up or get sticky.

 

My advice would be to just forget the V setting exists and to use the camera as is.

 

Do not. Not, not, not, attempt to lubricate a shutter. Most are designed to run dry or with a tiny amount of graphite powder, and the reasons they run slow are: corrosion, dirt, or amateur attempts to oil 'em.

never never never use graphite in any shutter.

 

the proper oils n grease as recomended by the manufacturer are the only way to go. many shutters do run dry but not all.

 

the naptha wash may losen old lubes but that may force old diluted lube into places it doesnt belong such as the iris n shutter blades. if you do use naptha, use it very sparingly so it doesnt migrate into other mechanisms.

rodeo_joe is 150% correct.

 

More old cameras and photo equipment are lost to "lubrication" than to practically any other cause.

Try cleaning the mechanism with a tiny bit of naphtha (lighter fluid), and be careful with that too.

...the proper oils n grease as recomended by the manufacturer

 

- Which oils and grease would those be, and where can the average person buy them?

 

I have never seen a shutter that would benefit from grease. Maybe a tiny amount of watch oil in the slow-speed train pivots if they're well-worn, and plain cleaning fails to bring them right. The same goes for a self-timer mechanism, but generally the use of oil anywhere near shutter or aperture blades is a very bad idea.

Lots of shutter timers need lubrication; that's also why they seize up. As for the self timer mechanism in the OP's Petri, it should be removed, disassembled, soaked, and properly cleaned. Then you can use wrist watch oil on the pivots. I also apply a tiny drop of ww oil across the coils of springs too because you can't easily find replacements for rusted/broken ones the way you could 40 years ago. As for flushing a mechanism out with lighter fluid, I would like to know who out there who charges for their service work actually does this. I want to know who to never send my equipment to.

you can buy oils n grease from microtools specificaly for shutters n camera repair in small quantities. they carry alot of camera repair stuff for diy hobbiests like yourself.

 

joe, shutters do get oiled n greased. perhaps you have a limited experiance with the many varieties of shutters n cla procedures.

 

using the correct oils n grease that dont out gas is why these oils exsist. regular oils will migrate into shutter blades and even react differently with certain metals.. so your warning is correct.. dont use motor oils or what some think are watch oils in a shutter. use only oils n greases designed for them.

 

there is a wealth of repair information if you do the research. we once had dozens of camera repair sites on the internet with experianced repairmen posting excelent cla procedures for almost any shutter as well as repair manuals for almost any camera out there.

 

you say you have never seen a shutter that benefited from lubes? try looking through the copal repair manual? they give very specific oils n grease schedules used in exact places in their shutters. yes some shutters do run dry but you've got to know which shutters you are dealing with first.

 

do not use graphite in a shutter! never!

 

if it turns, oil it. if it slips, grease it. if you arent sure, leave it!

flushing a mechanism out with lighter fluid, I would like to know who out there who charges for their service work actually does this. I want to know who to never send my equipment to.

 

 

many diyers use the naptha bath method. it works temporarily but it forces old crud into other places. as tge naptha dries it leaves the old crud in an even worse state that just cakes up again.

 

the correct method is disassembly.... but the diy methods will buy some time for those that cant afford a professional strip down or for cameras that arent worth the investment.... its understandable.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate you taking the time to write down your advice.

 

This is just a small project for my own interest. I got 4 cameras with various multiple faults at a good price, and wanted to see if I could get them up and running. Two done, still 2 to go.

 

rodeo_joe

Do not. Not, not, not, attempt to lubricate a shutter.

Joe -I was a bit leery of putting anything in the shutter mechanism as the things seems to work okay and the times seem about right - So I will leave well alone. And, yes, the self-timer will probably never get used - I just wanted to get it working a well as possible.

 

JDM

More old cameras and photo equipment are lost to "lubrication" than to practically any other cause.

Thank you JDM, your advice is always valued.

 

Andyfalsetta

As for the self timer mechanism in the OP's Petri, it should be removed, disassembled, soaked, and properly cleaned.

Thanks Andy - probably a task I will tackle later as I don't have the time nor probably the skill to tackle it at the moment. The "flushing with naptha" was from one of the many web pages I looked at for advice - it wasn't a pro service place.

 

Paul Ron

you can buy oils n grease from microtools specificaly for shutters n camera repair in small quantities.

Thanks Paul - I have looked at their website but not had anything from them yet. The shutter doesn't actually seem to need any work done on it at the moment so I won't touch it.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Laurie

Of the slow speed escapments and timers I've worked on they needed a bare minimum of lubrication.

Usually a very small pin prick of sewing machine / watch oil where the axel shafts of the various gears mount to the escapement frame.

 

Too much will lead to more dirt sticking the mechanism

In addition to Rick's comment about escapements, a speck of oil on the contact face of the pallets or tip of star wheel teeth can be helpful in some cases. I've avoided Petri, I'm sure the lenses are OK but have found other brands to interest me. On lubrication; firstly bear in mind that a shutter that would run well with minimal or no lube when new may after five or more decades of age and wear appreciate some intelligently applied. Secondly, where possible, RTFM. For example, Deckel's instructions on lubrication of their shutter designs were both explicit and extensive.

 

Hence, when you may read advice about the perils of, say, lubricating a Synchro Compur, nay, insisting this is the devil's work: what you actually have to ask yourself is whether or not you think an anonymous writer on the internet (I'm using my actual, legal name BTW) is better informed, and is smarter, than the manufacturer who designed and made the shutter.

 

It is also true that in some cases a shutter may run satisfactorily without lubrication even if designed to use some. Again, a Synchro Compur is a good example. But as usual it's not cut and dried. A reduction in service life should be expected. Because I do try my best to avoid the "I heard once" "Someone told me" "I read somewhere" frankly, BS, type of posts that seem to pass for intelligent, considered opinion on so many photography forums, I will cite a reference to also back up the aforementioned comment: Ie Claus Prochnow's Rollei Technical Report, where he cites figures of circa 6,000 cycles for a SC shutter run dry, v 30,000 plus for one correctly lubricated to Deckel's stipulations. The former may be acceptable if Eg a particular camera is to be used in very cold conditions, or is being restored for display and unlikely to see significant future service.

the correct method is disassembly.... but the diy methods will buy some time for those that cant afford a professional strip down or for cameras that arent worth the investment.... its understandable.

I would agree. As a DIY tactic it has an "instant gratification" factor to it and is low cost.

As for flushing a mechanism out with lighter fluid,

 

tiny drop, NEVER "flush" with any solvent, unless the part is dis-assembled.

to give you an idea of what the manufacturer recomends in the compour repair manual, go to tue lubrication section? now remember this is the strict method...

 

Compur Shutter Repair Manual

 

they use several types of grease n oils in one shutter. each one has a different viscosity n use, its not just sewing machine oil or watch oil... although diyers get away using these with some satisfaction. those are short term fixes n may not preform as expected in different temperature environments.

 

so yes use the diy methods but sooner or later you will have to pay the band. like i said, diyers dont need or want longevity or perfection, they just want it for now and thats fine for a camera you resurected from the dump. diyers dont earn their bacon from their equipment.

^Yup. Great info!

to give you an idea of what the manufacturer recomends in the compour repair manual, go to tue lubrication section? now remember this is the strict method...

 

Compur Shutter Repair Manual

 

they use several types of grease n oils in one shutter. each one has a different viscosity n use, its not just sewing machine oil or watch oil... although diyers get away using these with some satisfaction. those are short term fixes n may not preform as expected in different temperature environments.

 

so yes use the diy methods but sooner or later you will have to pay the band. like i said, diyers dont need or want longevity or perfection, they just want it for now and thats fine for a camera you resurected from the dump. diyers dont earn their bacon from their equipment.

A lot of generalisations above. If only there was as much punctuation.

 

"Watch oil"? What type of watch oil? There are dozens of different possibilities, just from Moebius, let alone other sources. Some will be quite unsuited to the insides of a Compur shutter, others will be better than anything Deckel had available in the 1950s, for example, unless, that is, you still regard whale-derived organic lubricants as state of the art, because I certainly don't. Why do you think so many of these shutters, even in cameras that were barely used, no longer run off well. It's because of the oxidised organic lubricants used, which are inferior to modern synthetics that are vastly more stable and resistant to ageing. But what would I know? I'm just a DIYer...

A lot of generalisations above. If only there was as much punctuation.

 

"Watch oil"? What type of watch oil? There are dozens of different possibilities, just from Moebius, let alone other sources. Some will be quite unsuited to the insides of a Compur shutter, others will be better than anything Deckel had available in the 1950s, for example, unless, that is, you still regard whale-derived organic lubricants as state of the art, because I certainly don't. Why do you think so many of these shutters, even in cameras that were barely used, no longer run off well. It's because of the oxidised organic lubricants used, which are inferior to modern synthetics that are vastly more stable and resistant to ageing. But what would I know? I'm just a DIYer...

 

I don't understand your "generalizations vs punctuation" remark.... perhaps you didn't find the manual specific enough? Perhaps I didn't stress the importance of the right way as opposed to using the common DIY shorcuts circulating the internet? I really dont care if you bathe your shutters in lard, whale oil or 30 weight motor oil... that's your way... it may not be the right way but if it works for ya.... God bless!.... but to say one lube is better than another when you don't make your living from repairs is rather brave.

 

As for old lubes vs synthetics being better... Id say 70 years is more than enough expected use for any product with that amount of success. what makes you think a shutter runs better or any longer on new vs old lubes? They still fall into the 20% spec accuracy and will need service in so many years regardless of how long lubes last or not, parts wear and lubes migrate.

 

Synthetic still has to prove its longevity for another maybe 50 years before you can claim the old wasn't doing its job. The old stuff has kept 100 year old cameras running this long. Shutter parts, watch parts and car engines are all designed with very exacting tolerances that allow for lubricants of very specific weights n viscosity and many other characteristics that make each one unique to their intended use ( thats why they are recommended by the manufacturer ). Using a new synth oil doesn't mean its automatically better.

 

BTW you are entitled to your opinion on organic lubes... maybe you don't find them to be state of the art or impressed with their function... but if it weren't for them, how do you account for the equipment still alive that used those organics? And Im sure if you were in the camera repair business in the day those lubes were state of the art, you may have a different opinion.

 

Im not against DIY methods... its a great way to keep these old gems running that otherwise may have been land fill by now. My advice, use good tools, do your homework to find the correct materials, find tried n true methods, even if they don't use their real names!

 

 

Paul Ron