Yashica 24 Does 120 Film

I acquired a Yashica 24 a few weeks ago. It's a Yashicamat designed for 24 exposures on 220 film, which has no backing paper. Good for wedding photographers back in the day. Not so good now, with 220 hardly available. I tried it with a scrap 120 film and it ran through fine. The back states clearly to use 220, but there is a starting mark for 120 also. There is therefore a 120 back available. Some users think that you need to add thin pads to move the pressure plate back a fraction, to account for the thickness of the backing paper, but I couldn't see how this was needed. So I loaded it with a Shanghai 100 ISO Black and White film to see what emerged. I'll just show some of the results. I haven't' had time to photograph the camera, which looks much like any other Yashicamat.

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by John Seaman

I would conclude that the Yashica 24 takes 120 film without modification. I even forgot to use the 120 start, using the 220 starting marks instead, and still got 12 pictures.

 

 

There's an interesting 'argument' here about the suitability of 120 film in the Yashi 24.

 

My own opinion is that that the 'pressure plate doesn't apply pressure to the film' theory is nonsense. Anyone who's wound an empty and full camera can easily feel the extra drag on the film from the pressure plate. However, whether the thickness of backing paper really needs a slacker pressure plate is open to question.

 

In my view, either a 'pressure plate' is a pressure plate, or it isn't. A flap that just stops the film wandering out of its guide channel would seem to require too much of film-thickness tolerances to be of much use in keeping the film flat.

 

BTW. It's a shame on our society that not even rural lock gates are immune from the attentions of moronic taggers these days.

Edited September 16, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

I had read that discussion Joe, and ended up even more confused, to be honest. I must admit none of the shots were in need of critical focus, and taken at moderate apertures, but I think that for my type of photography the camera performs quite adequately.

 

I agree about the graffiti, although the situation is hardly rural. Apart from the first shot, they were all done within 100 yards of one another, just off one of the main roads leading to Leicester city centre a mile or so away.

FWIW, I've been told that it's possible to convert a Hasselblad A24 back to an A12 by changing the frame counter/gearing. The same is also true in reverse. There was a sanctioned procedure for using 220 film in the "12" back(non-automatic) before Hasselblad made a dedicated 220 back. Basically, you used a rubber stopper to plug the "peep hole", and would turn the crank a certain number of turns before starting the film counter. Once you reached 12, you would again turn the crank backwards to reset the frame counter to 1.

 

On my Bronica SQ-A/SQ-C, going from 120 to 220 just required flipping a switch on the side of the film back without a pressure plate change.

 

I've known of SOME cameras that have multiple positions on the pressure plate, but I've never owned one. I suspect that the difference isn't actually that great.

John Seaman said:

Some users think that you need to add thin pads to move the pressure plate back a fraction, to account for the thickness of the backing paper, but I couldn't see how this was needed.

 

Pentax seemed to condsider some adjustment necessary, when they designed the Pentax 67 series. As well as providing a switch for the frame counter, the pressure plate is adjustable for 120 or 220 film. According to one of my manuals on the camera, "This adjustment is necessary to accommodate the different thicknesses of 120 and 220 films. The continuous paper backing of the 120 film makes it thicker than 220 film, which has paper only on the ends of the roll. Therefore, the pressure plate is closer to the film-guide rails when it is set for 220 film."

 

Given the tiny scale of the adjustment to the pressure plate, I suspect it's merely a matter of degree of the pressure being exerted, not pressure or the lack of it.

 

Having said that, those images of yours couldn't be much sharper, and as there don't seem to be any issues with the counter I can't see the use of 120 film being a problem. Thanks for an interesting post.

Edited September 17, 2018 by rick_drawbridge

Ben, Rick, thanks for the comments. No doubt the differences between settings for 120 and 220 are small, but perhaps not insignificant in critical situations.

 

After many minutes of exhausting internet research, including the discussion pointed out by Joe. I find the following scenarios:

1) Some report that they have used 120 film in the Yashica 24 with no apparent problems (including now, myself).

2) Another view is that there must have been a good reason why Yashica said 220 only, and supplied a different back for 120. (And not just to sell extra camera backs).

3) Some users believe in packing the pressure plate back by the thickness of film backing paper.

3) No actual reports were found of focusing errors consequent upon the use of 120 with the unmodified 220 back.

 

Here finally is the camera.

 

John Seaman said:

Some users believe in packing the pressure plate back by the thickness of film backing paper.

 

On thinking about, surely one would want to reduce the pressure from the pressure plate if using 120 film in a back designed for 220? The additional thickness of the 120 film with it's backing paper requires the plate to be moved back from the plane of focus at the guide rails. My initial reaction to your query was that the pressure plate in the 220 back might apply too much pressure on the 120 film as it passes from the roll to the guide rails and off again, causing scratching; but, as was discussed above, only very minimal changes of pressure are involved. Obviously, a film without the support of backing paper is more inclined to sag away from the guide rails.

 

It would be interesting to inspect a 220 Yashica back to see if any other changes were made to the pressure plate, particularly in the realms of abrasion prevention.

 

Nice tidy little Yashica, John. I hope we will see more images from it.

As I've often said....every stupid thing that can be done....I've done it. Including using 220 film in Super Ikonta. Very nice to have a blob of red running through all your photos. It did/does have a shield but I was looking for the numbers and wondered why thwey weren't showing... Duuhhh!! Anyhow in the current discussion, plate etc. I have the Yashicamat... unfortunately not in front of me but IIRC there is a plate adjustment for 120 vs 220 but ..I thought it was to reset the start marker. You push down on it to remove it and you re-seat it then 90 or 180 degrees.

 

I will look at that here ...soon.

The 120/220 Power Back for the RB requires spinning the pressure plate to make the switch. It never seemed, to me, like it was moving the plate by the thickness of the backing paper. Now, I would suggest that all it's doing is changing the frame counter from 1-10 to 10-20.

Not my line of 'work', but it looks good to me.

 

But what do I know?:)

There shouldn't be a focus issue. Both 120 and 220 film stock are the same thickness and the film, backing or no, sits against the film gate. The risks going from 220 to 120 are basically only the potential for film advance wear or damage due to the thicker film/backing being pulled past the pressure plate. Going from 120 to 220, you need to account (often) for the red frame counter window on the back, sloppy film flatness and scratching the film as you drag it over a pressure plate that only expected to have backing paper on it.

Seems to me that a big disadvantage is that it won't stop after 12 shots.

 

If you are shooting a wedding, and take the all important shot on backing paper, that is bad.

I think that would be enough reason to make a 120 version.

 

But if you know to stop after 12, I don't see much problem.

Possibly scratching due to too much pressure?

Glen, the chance of my doing a wedding with this camera, or with any other camera for that matter, is exactly zero. But I do take your point.

 

There were no obvious scratches on the film, and it passed through the camera smoothly with no undue pressure on the crank, fairly typical of other TLR's I've used. I certainly wouldn't want to overload the rather fragile Yashicamat winding mechanism. Perhaps the spring tension on the pressure plate slackens over time.

Years ago I had a 120 only Yashica, likely older than yours. After I learned about 220, I wondered about how to use 220 in it.

 

I never has any 220 film, and now don't have the camera. But since the counter only goes to 12, and after that doesn't stop, how would it work?

I figured that if I opened the back in the dark, and I had a changing bag by then, it would reset the counter.

 

The only reason for wondering about it, was the challenge of doing it. There wasn't any actual need.

 

All the 120 cameras I have now, have red (or green) windows in the back, so no use for 220.

 

I still have my 50 year old "Kodak films in rolls", which gives the data sheets for each film type,

and indicates which size each is available in.

 

When I first read your post, though, I was thinking more about the backs for 120/220 SLRs,

where the back includes the spooling, gearing, and the frame counter.

 

In your case, how does the frame counter know which back you have?

There doesn't seem to be any linkage from the back to set the camera for 12 or 24 exposures. What happens is that when you wind on, the counter stops the crank normally at each frame up to 12 - you turn the handle back to the rest position to cock the shutter each time. Then after taking the 12th exposure, the crank just turns freely without stopping until the counter reads 24, when you open up and remove the film.

 

So how does it "know" that the film has come to its end after 12 exposures?

 

Did you ever wish you hadn't started something?

There doesn't seem to be any linkage from the back to set the camera for 12 or 24 exposures. What happens is that when you wind on, the counter stops the crank normally at each frame up to 12 - you turn the handle back to the rest position to cock the shutter each time. Then after taking the 12th exposure, the crank just turns freely without stopping until the counter reads 24, when you open up and remove the film.

 

So how does it "know" that the film has come to its end after 12 exposures?

 

Did you ever wish you hadn't started something?

My Dad has a saying 'Damn clever these Chinese' (regardless of country of origin) for anything that cannot be fathomed like this, and as you say, you might wish you never started, but you are content to let lie.

 

When playing recently with an MPP Microflex, I noted the wind on required a 360 rotation to cock the shutter, then re-winding maybe 30 degrees to the rest position, before the camera would actually fire. Each frame, this rewind angle got less, until for the 12th frame it was maybe only 10 degrees. It struck me that maybe this progressive reduction in rewind angle might be associated with 'counting' the frames. I wonder if your Yashica has the same system, and if so, what that is!

Ok... I checked. I have the Yashicamat (12/24 ) I should probably post pictures but it is as I said: There is a pressure plate that rotates 90 degrees . Whether one hole set is deeper than the other unsure. but the springs are the same. Additionally, the starter mark for 24 exp is around the corner circa 1 inch ahead of the start mark for 12 exp