Nikon Introduces Mirrorless Z System

Yes - my Eos 300D gets away with it by only having seven AF points, so you can tell what they cover. Face detect group mode might solve the interface problem.

 

I still want to specify who is within the depth of field and who is not, not have the camera decide.

All this AF can't see mountains through trees or cannot secure a dragonfly could be so easy for a user designated focus limiter.

Infinity (or near!) lock.

Dragonfly between 4-5m lock.

It cannot be that hard!!

I think the issue is that to use the Ai-S mechanical lever to set aperture, the camera needs to do a final check on the outcome (for the exposure to be accurate). The meter is peeking through a hole in the prism coating towards the focusing screen and the amount of light it gets when the aperture is stopped down,may differ from what the main sensor gets, so the verification may lead to an erroneous result. A mirrorless camera can check the main sensor image for exposure error (no bias, since this is the light that makes the image) and do a quick adjustment to get correct exposure, which is why you will be able to use the body-controlled aperture on manual focus non-CPU lenses. I am not sure but I suspect in AF and Ai-P lenses the CPU provides additional information about the relationship between aperture realized and the lever position, so a "let's double check the exposure before opening the shutter" isn't necessary. Anyway usually I try to be as accurate as I can but this is based on a discussion I read and I can't remember all the details. Anyway there is a reason why Nikon haven't allowed Ai-S lenses to realize their "S" potential on AF cameras before mirrorless. It's not a conspiracy or intentional crippling.

Nikon NX-D--Next Update

 

I just found another piece of information in the Nikon Z brochure on page 53.

 

"RAW file processing software with color control

points — Capture NX-D (free download)

 

Nikon’s Capture NX-D software is the

best way to process original RAW (NEF/

NRW) files without losing any of their

extremely rich data. You can adjust

options such as exposure compensation,

white balance, Picture Control, Active D-Lighting and noise

reduction using a slider. It also incorporates color control

points that let you edit the hue, brightness, saturation,

contrast, etc. of a selected area. JPEG and TIFF files are

also compatible."

 

Maybe Nikon has hired DXO to add back control points to their RAW processor. There are now in DXO Photo Labs Elite version.

DXO probably could use the money from Nikon. It was a shock to me when they discontinued NX2; it takes so much more time to do local adjustments in Adobe software. NX-D has never been stable on my computer (old one or new). I hope they can fix it so that it is stable and adding control points would be great, if they can get it to work.

Couple of questions.

First how to switch metering modes on the Z?

How much better is the 50mm f/1.8 Z compared to the 50mm f/1.8 AF-S G in F mount? The price is a lot higher.

Couple of questions.

First how to switch metering modes on the Z?

 

I think someone suggested you have to go via the menus, unless one of the (few) custom buttons can be assigned. The touchscreen should make it less painful, but I do use custom overrides on my D850 according to scenario. On the D700, AF mode and metering mode were both on the right side of the camera; I'm not very impressed that they've become less accessible during shooting, other than the limited override options. (Until recently I had Fn and Pv set to spot and area meter, with highlight as the default; since dragonfly hunting I've been using the same buttons for area and D9 autofocus, but I'm out of buttons if I want to choose both dynamically.)

 

How much better is the 50mm f/1.8 Z compared to the 50mm f/1.8 AF-S G in F mount? The price is a lot higher.

 

By MTF, apparently a lot - nikon rumors has some MTF curves posted. It looks better than the Sigma Art 50mm wide open (although I don't know how the Sigma compares at f/1.8, and it does sharpen up a lot - for its relatively high starting point - as you stop down). What this means for other aspects of rendering is TBD. Sony's 50mm f/1.8 performs quite well too, and similarly costs a fortune. The suggestion is that the "S-line" are the premium lenses, and Nikon might choose to release some more budget Z-mount lenses in the future. It certainly has an interesting optical design. (Concave front element, IIRC, which worries me a bit for reflections off filters.)

I think the issue is that to use the Ai-S mechanical lever to set aperture, the camera needs to do a final check on the outcome (for the exposure to be accurate). The meter is peeking through a hole in the prism coating towards the focusing screen and the amount of light it gets when the aperture is stopped down,may differ from what the main sensor gets, so the verification may lead to an erroneous result. A mirrorless camera can check the main sensor image for exposure error (no bias, since this is the light that makes the image) and do a quick adjustment to get correct exposure, which is why you will be able to use the body-controlled aperture on manual focus non-CPU lenses. I am not sure but I suspect in AF and Ai-P lenses the CPU provides additional information about the relationship between aperture realized and the lever position, so a "let's double check the exposure before opening the shutter" isn't necessary. Anyway usually I try to be as accurate as I can but this is based on a discussion I read and I can't remember all the details. Anyway there is a reason why Nikon haven't allowed Ai-S lenses to realize their "S" potential on AF cameras before mirrorless. It's not a conspiracy or intentional crippling.

 

Thanks, Ilkka. Interesting, but my experience with hacking a TC-16A suggested that the lens-specific basics required for the electronic interface aren't much more than the maximum aperture. It's news to me if the lever position information has a more complex encoding. I'm prepared to believe "these folks can just use the aperture ring, and pay for an AF lens if they want camera control", and "absent an AI-S switch on the mount, it's too tedious to hard-wire this in the menu and people will just complain that the metering is wrong" as reasons not to do it, and cynically I'd think they were sufficient reasons, even if I don't think they're good ones. But I guess I should give the benefit of the doubt.

 

Still, if the AI-S linearised aperture isn't actually linearised, that's embarrassing...

I still want to specify who is within the depth of field and who is not, not have the camera decide.

 

Belatedly: Yes, but it's kind of fiddly to do that interactively. I can see two ways: have the AF-On button act as "add to AF" and hop the finder around (or use the joystick and its centre button) to add people, or just rely on face detection and let the camera do its best. Mirrorless (or, at a push, live view) could do a bit better with touch to focus, but you'd still need tracking to deal with the subjects moving around while you compose. It's on my list, anyway. I'd like it too, and manual selection would mean you could use it for landscapes (which your'e more likely to have time to select).

I'm pretty sure the reason for not allowing camera to control the aperture is simply that the focusing screen doesn't accurately show brightness differences as the lens is stopped down and so metering based on that in stopped down mode is invalid, and the aperture lever is just not that accurate in those old lenses. However the mirrorless camera main image sensor can accurately read the light and adjust exposure just before making the final exposure,. Nikon would not change policy regarding supporting camera control of aperture on these lenses if it weren't for a good reason that DSLRs can't support this functionality but mirrorless can. They've been very insistent about not allowing this but as far as I know the Nikon 1 does. The lens "CPU" can potentially contain a lot of lens specific data. For example off-center spot metering requires the CPU. Likely there is some information about the lens vignetting behavior or some such things. It would be interesting if this information were actually revealed.

If Nikon wants to I think with the FTZ adapter they should be able to make all Nikkor works with the Z except AF on screw drive lenses. They should be able to make the camera both meter and function in all exposure modes PSAM. The way to do it is to to do something like what they did on the Df that in both A and M mode your have to match the aperture in the display and the aperture ring. In P and S mode just leave the aperture to minimum. Even AI or Pre-AI the movement of the aperture stop down level isn't linear but I think it can do the stop down measurement before exposure and make a small correction with the shutter speed like they did on the FA.

 

Yargh. The "setting the aperture in two places" solution is my least favourite botch on the Df. The Df, which has a shutter mechanism very similar to the D610, can't move the mirror independently of the stop-down lever, so doing stop-down metering with the viewfinder meter would be a bit of a hack (the aperture would open and close repeatedly, I believe). The D8x0 and single-digit bodies can move the aperture lever independently, so I see no reason they shouldn't always have been able to do stop-down metering, other than that it wouldn't work in matrix mode. I doubt improving flexibility with AI lenses is high on Nikon's priority list, but still. On the Z, the behaviour depends on how the aperture lever in the adaptor is implemented - I agree they could do it (although again, not knowing the absolute EV breaks the matrix algorithms).

I'm pretty sure the reason for not allowing camera to control the aperture is simply that the focusing screen doesn't accurately show brightness differences as the lens is stopped down and so metering based on that in stopped down mode is invalid, and the aperture lever is just not that accurate in those old lenses. However the mirrorless camera main image sensor can accurately read the light and adjust exposure just before making the final exposure,. Nikon would not change policy regarding supporting camera control of aperture on these lenses if it weren't for a good reason that DSLRs can't support this functionality but mirrorless can. The lens "CPU" can potentially contain a lot of lens specific data. For example off-center spot metering requires the CPU. Likely there is some information about the lens vignetting behavior or some such things. It would be interesting if this information were actually revealed.

 

Agreed. I'd love it if this stuff was considered old enough to be discussed in the 1001 nights articles.

 

Good thought about the viewfinder meter blacking out. The F5 could meter its centre AF point (which is how it metered with a WLF); I'm not sure how the FA managed incremental stop down. Did it not have a fresnel finder screen?

 

I'm sure we'd lose the matrix metering doing this, because the algorithm (AFAIK) needs to know absolute light levels for its scene detection. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to spot meter. Or even highlight meter, as far as I'm concerned.

It is fairly simple to use a manual aperture ring on an MILC. Exposure is measured by the image sensor, and always in the stopped-down position. Set the manual coupling in the adapter to the widest open position, and the aperture will always close to the value displayed on the ring. The camera doesn't need to know (unlike a DSLR) what the maximum aperture is, nor where the ring is set.

 

The aperture setting may or may not be displayed in the finder or in metadata. It's possible if the Z can read the chip in the lens, if any. Alternately, the Z probably has an ambient light sensor to adjust the finder brightness. Leica uses this reading to compare with the light reaching the sensor in order to estimate the f/stop.

 

If you use the slider on the adapter to set the aperture, first set the manual ring to the smallest aperture and the lever will open the lens to a non-calibrated value. Since exposure is always measured with the aperture at the set value, it is not necessary to know the exact value. A DSLR has a fixed set of positions for the coupling lever, and measures exposure with the lens wide open. The camera must know the maximum aperture to implement the preset value in f/stops with the number of "clicks" to move the lever at the time of exposure.

 

Using an MILC, especially with focus magnification, you quickly realize DOF is a convenient fiction. On the other hand, you always have live view and the finder stays at a constant level. Since you alway view at the preset aperture, you have a very clear idea of the effective DOF. DOF control becomes a creative tool, not just a rough guess.

have the AF-On button act as "add to AF" and hop the finder around (or use the joystick and its centre button) to add people

Sorry, but AF can't "add people" to a group photo. It focuses on the subject you are pointing at, and forgets where it was last. With an EVF, you are always in "live view" and can reasonably see who's in focus. It's still necessary to use the skill you develop with experience as to where to focus and where to set the aperture.

 

Most people use a half-press of the shutter release to trigger AF. If you use single-servo focusing, you can focus and recompose just like with a rangefinder camera. In order to use face detection, you must be in continuous-servo mode. If the camera detects several faces, you may be able to select a particular one using the joy stick. I use the dedicated AF button (Sony A7) and disable the half-press option. That way I can focus and recompose once, release the AF button, and shoot several frames without the need to repeat the process. That's especially useful when shooting groups at a wedding or event.

 

I have even used tracking to lock on to a particular face, and have it hold when I recompose the photo. It's not something I would recommend on a continual basis.

 

There are many more options for focusing and exposure with an MILC compared to a DSLR, that you will find it confusing at first.

Yargh. The "setting the aperture in two places" solution is my least favourite botch on the Df. The Df, which has a shutter mechanism very similar to the D610, can't move the mirror independently of the stop-down lever, so doing stop-down metering with the viewfinder meter would be a bit of a hack (the aperture would open and close repeatedly, I believe). The D8x0 and single-digit bodies can move the aperture lever independently, so I see no reason they shouldn't always have been able to do stop-down metering, other than that it wouldn't work in matrix mode. I doubt improving flexibility with AI lenses is high on Nikon's priority list, but still. On the Z, the behaviour depends on how the aperture lever in the adaptor is implemented - I agree they could do it (although again, not knowing the absolute EV breaks the matrix algorithms).

The Df can stop the lens down without having the mirror up. The DOF button does that. It's all about the matrix algorithm but they can change it. Personally I don't care much for metering so it doesn't bother me. If you have to stop the lens down first to take the meter reading then take the shot it's OK by me but I wouldn't do it. It's much simpler for me to simply guess the exposure. If the camera would automatically stop the lens down after you push the shutter release, take a reading and set the shutter speed automatically that would be convenient to some but I wouldn't want that because it can't display the shutter speed before I press the shutter release.

It is fairly simple to use a manual aperture ring on an MILC. Exposure is measured by the image sensor, and always in the stopped-down position.

 

Why? The lens is not necessarily always stopped down during image preview - doing so compromises PDoS autofocus accuracy. And there's still a mechanical shutter. I'd be surprised if the sequence is "stop down, meter, close shutter, open shutter, close shutter, release aperture lever and open the shutter again". And you wouldn't be able to see metering information during composition.

 

Set the manual coupling in the adapter to the widest open position, and the aperture will always close to the value displayed on the ring. The camera doesn't need to know (unlike a DSLR) what the maximum aperture is, nor where the ring is set.

 

While you can stop down before metering, and indeed while composing (which gives you DoF preview), you probably also limit yourself to contrast-detect AF doing so. I don't think they're so different.

 

Alternately, the Z probably has an ambient light sensor to adjust the finder brightness.

 

I'm actually interested to know that. IIRC the addition and removal of an ambient sensor for the rear LCD happened during the D8x0 series lifetime.

 

The camera must know the maximum aperture to implement the preset value in f/stops with the number of "clicks" to move the lever at the time of exposure.

 

Well, yes. But the only reason modern Nikon bodies care is to give absolute light information to the matrix algorithm. Spot or centre-weight and the camera doesn't need to know what the absolute aperture is. The on-camera dials could implement "delta -4 EV" just as easily.

 

Using an MILC, especially with focus magnification, you quickly realize DOF is a convenient fiction.

 

As in live view. And as if you look at images once they're captured. I essentially don't rely on the OVF for focus confirmation unless I'm stopping down a lot.

 

Since you alway view at the preset aperture, you have a very clear idea of the effective DOF. DOF control becomes a creative tool, not just a rough guess.

 

As in live view. Or, beyond a certain point, with DoF preview in the finder. And this does assume you're using the MILC with the lens stopped down, which inherently affects automated AF speed and accuracy and limits the light reaching the sensor. Sometimes that's a good trade-off; sometimes it's not.

Sorry, but AF can't "add people" to a group photo. It focuses on the subject you are pointing at, and forgets where it was last.

 

We're discussing a feature addition, not disputing the current behaviour. Hold AF-On on a subject in the finder and move the camera around with 3D tracking, and the AF point will move with them. I'm suggesting that, while doing this, you could move another AF point over a separate subject, either by moving the camera or using the AF joystick. You'd have to select something which was out of focus and rely on the tracking staying locked (which is mostly up to the meter colour input), and if AF is to track you couldn't just stop down as you go to keep all the subjects in focus, but to some extent it should be possible.

 

With an EVF, you are always in "live view" and can reasonably see who's in focus.

 

How? You're looking at a screen with limited resolution, from a limited viewpoint. The situation is not significantly better than an optical finder. You can do better if you zoom in on a focus point, but then you're not composing the scene. (See my historical suggestions for splitting the live view screen four ways...)

 

It's still necessary to use the skill you develop with experience as to where to focus and where to set the aperture.

 

Sure. But nonetheless, Canon implemented A-Dep for doing this, and (other than that they gave no control over CoC size) it was useful. I don't see why it now shouldn't be.

 

Most people use a half-press of the shutter release to trigger AF.

 

In general, maybe. On this forum I suspect there are an awful lot of AF-On users. I'm not somehow suggesting this as a replacement for normal AF usage, just an alternative mode, which is exactly how Canon implemented it.

 

If you use single-servo focusing, you can focus and recompose just like with a rangefinder camera.

 

Which on a modern high-megapixel camera, I maintain, is a terrible idea - because you tilt the focal plane as you recompose. Hasselblad actually use the accelerometer in the camera to detect rotation and refocus when you do this. Tracking is better still, because everyone (subject and photographer) moves a bit.

 

In order to use face detection, you must be in continuous-servo mode. If the camera detects several faces, you may be able to select a particular one using the joy stick. I use the dedicated AF button (Sony A7) and disable the half-press option. That way I can focus and recompose once, release the AF button, and shoot several frames without the need to repeat the process. That's especially useful when shooting groups at a wedding or event.

 

At a sufficiently small aperture, I'm sure that works fine. Weren't you mentioning depth of field being a fiction? :-)

 

I have even used tracking to lock on to a particular face, and have it hold when I recompose the photo. It's not something I would recommend on a continual basis.

 

Why? It's how I normally shoot a portrait, and Nikon's eye track AF is designed for it. People don't hold still.

 

There are many more options for focusing and exposure with an MILC compared to a DSLR, that you will find it confusing at first.

 

I'm sure (despite my already owning two MILC bodies). But some also work just fine with a dSLR, no? Interestingly, one of the criticisms people have made about the Z series is that the configurability of Nikon's AF system seems to have gone missing.

Just to keep the thread churning, rumours indicate that Canon might be announcing a 28MP, 10fps, ~$2000 full-frame mirrorless system on September 5th. Of course, rumours could say anything, but we might want to be ready for further discussion about the comparative merits of the Z6. Just keeping people awake for the weekend. :-)

 

(Also apologies to Ed if I was a bit cantankerous in the last post. A long day filing expense claims puts me in a bad mood, and I may have let it rub off.)

I see the first adapter for the Z mount with integral filter housing has appeared.

 

Nikon Z6 AstroKit, mirrorless camera with astrophotography adapter: Buy online | Primalucelab.com

And to follow on from Andrew's 'Rumour' about the Canon MILC, they appear to fave a filter housing adaptor too.

Just to keep the thread churning, rumours indicate that Canon might be announcing a 28MP, 10fps, ~$2000 full-frame mirrorless system on September 5th. Of course, rumours could say anything, but we might want to be ready for further discussion about the comparative merits of the Z6. Just keeping people awake for the weekend. :)

 

(Also apologies to Ed if I was a bit cantankerous in the last post. A long day filing expense claims puts me in a bad mood, and I may have let it rub off.)

 

Do you know if it has new mount?

While you can stop down before metering, and indeed while composing (which gives you DoF preview), you probably also limit yourself to contrast-detect AF doing so. I don't think they're so different.

In lieu of a mechanical coupling with the camera, you are obliged to focus and meter non-electronic apertures in a stopped-down position. Buried in comments by early users of the Nikon Z, native lenses stop down once focusing is complete, which sounds very similar to the way Sony works. One source said the Z only stops down to f/5.6 prior to the shot, presumably to maintain phase detection. Sony has options in this regard, and I suspect Nikon does too, and they may change as the firmware is updated.

In lieu of a mechanical coupling with the camera, you are obliged to focus and meter non-electronic apertures in a stopped-down position.

 

True. Although the Z adaptor has a aperture lever, so it should be able to toggle between "wide open" and "anything up to minimum aperture, stopped by the aperture ring" on most Nikon lenses, as with other Nikons (and the only functionality pre-FA). I have a few lenses with no coupling; most have a quick manual way to toggle between stopped down and wide. Am I right in remembering that the trick with pre-AI lenses on bodies like the F5 is to use AE lock while holding down Pv?

 

Good catch about the implementation details chosen by Nikon - similar, I believe, to live view on the D700, which would stop down but not all the way.

Do you know if it has new mount?

 

I know nothing, but I believe the rumour was suggesting one. I guess we'll know soon!

The Df can stop the lens down without having the mirror up. The DOF button does that.

 

Sorry, I should be clear. I don't fully understand the aperture control mechanism, but it appears that most Nikons have a set position for the aperture lever, and stop down to it when you press DoF preview or raise the mirror (for a single shot or live view). If you change the aperture manually on the camera while holding down Pv or in live view, nothing happens until you return to normal shooting; similarly aperture is fixed for video. If you zoom a variable aperture lens, the actual aperture is determined by the lever position, not the set aperture.

 

On the D8x0 bodies and single digit cameras after the D3 (and I always forget which category the D750 and D500 fall in), the aperture lever position adjusts independently. You can see aperture changes dynamically in DoF preview, you have "power aperture" in video, variable aperture lenses maintain the set aperture. Hence these bodies should be mechanically able to adjust the aperture after stopping down to meter (but not matrix meter) with a lens with a nonlinear aperture motion, I think.

 

I've also forgotten whether E-aperture lenses work properly on everything (since they're not reliant on the aperture lever implementation).

 

Personally I don't care much for metering so it doesn't bother me.

 

I find myself in a constant fight with Nikon's metering algorithm, mostly because even highlight metering doesn't actually preserve highlights. (Nikon: seriously, how hard would ETTR be?) But the things I shoot change enough that I rarely expose manually.

 

If you have to stop the lens down first to take the meter reading then take the shot it's OK by me but I wouldn't do it.

 

Take a reading? The worst I was proposing was the stop down meter by Pv + AE-Lock as on the film bodies, not read the meter manually. On bodies with a flexible aperture lever (mostly including the Z adaptor) I was just assuming a slight exposure delay as on the FA, since the mirror can't be moving while the lens stops down. Aperture priority or manual with auto ISO should be able to do this stopping down to the lens aperture ring value (even on pre-AI or bodies with no aperture ring); camera aperture control (program and shutter priority) needs the closed loop system with the bodies that have the right lever control. The camera doesn't know the set aperture, but doesn't need to.

 

It's much simpler for me to simply guess the exposure.

 

Well, you don't have to use it, but I'm quite fond of having a meter.

 

If the camera would automatically stop the lens down after you push the shutter release, take a reading and set the shutter speed automatically that would be convenient to some but I wouldn't want that because it can't display the shutter speed before I press the shutter release.

 

Well, there's always manual with auto ISO. But you'd really rather know the shutter speed than have the exposure metered? (Or, I guess, have metering but have to make aperture changes twice?) Even if pressing Pv could give you a shutter speed reading? Tracking the exposure difference compared with wide open so that matrix metering works would be interesting, though.

 

Still, shoulda woulda coulda. If Nikon didn't care about providing at least F5-grade stop down metering with the Df, I doubt they're going to fix it on any new body. I don't actually own any pre-AI lenses, I'm just a bit sad that they wouldn't fully work.