Manual Film Camera Speeds and Sunny 16

I recently decided to give my dad's ancient Agfa Selecta a warm-up run after years of non use. Naturally, the cell which powers the internal meter has died, forcing me to rely on full manual exposure. Figuring that "Sunny 16" and other related rules (sunset, overcast, sand/snow, etc.) would be my best hope, I went looking online for the general guidelines to create a quick reference sheet to use out in the field until becoming completely comfortable with it. I discovered a problem; online tutorials explain that exact reciprocals are needed based on the ISO/film speed. That means using 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, etc. shutter speeds while all my film cameras (FE, AE-1 Program, ME Super, MX, OM-2n, and the Agfa Selecta) run with speeds of 125, 250, 500, 1000. So my question is this: if using 100 ISO film with Sunny 16, will my speeds be f/16 @ 125, f/11 @ 250, f/8 @ 500, and so on, or will I need to use exposure compensation and maybe other creative tactics to be as close to 100, 200, 400, 800+ as possible?

 

Thank you for any advice any of you film shooters have in addressing this. I have been looking online but most of the tutorials are geared toward digital shooters who have a larger variety of intermediate film speeds available for use.

 

Bryan

Especially with negative film being exact is no big deal. But if it makes you feel safer, with ASA (excuse me - ISO) 100 film open a half stop when shooting at a 125th.

 

If you google it, you can find some old - and new - Kodak data sheets that used to be included with the film.

 

Go here: http://www.fotofachversand.at/pdf/Kodak_Ektar_Datenblatt.pdf

 

PS - shutter speeds are never exact in the first place.

Edited August 12, 2018 by chuck909

Yep, chuck909 is right. With both colour and B&W negative film, you've got at least 2 stops latitude, probably more. E-6 film is more precise, but you're better off underexposing that about a 1/3rd of a stop to get better colour. Good luck. Hope the bug bites. You may want to 'exercise' the shutter a bit - several shots without film and at different speeds, before you put film in it. Look forward to seeing the photos. Regards, Arthur (apiarist1)

When I recently ran a 50 ISO film through my Microcord, which has the old range of film speeds including 1/50, I was pleasantly surprised to find how easy it was to use the sunny 16 rule, with no need for mental calculations. And with the modern range of speeds, 125 ISO film works just as well, if you can get it. But yes, with the exposure latitude of print film, and uncertain shutter speeds, the nearest available speed is always going to be good enough.

Thank you for the responses. It seems you’re all saying that using the available shutter speeds (60, 125, 250, and so on) should be close enough for the wide exposure latitude of print film. That’s easy enough. I have a fresh roll of TMax 400 in the Agfa now.

 

But what about shooting with slide film? I intend on taking my Olympus OM-2n and a bunch of Provia 100 to the Outer Banks in a week and will need to be as close as possible with my exposures. The different weather rules will be helpful and stand in as my so-called incident meter until I can afford one. Will the standard film speeds work with the “sandy/snowy 22 rule”? In other words; with ISO 100 using 1/125 at f/22, 1/250 at f/16, 1/500 at f/11, and 1/1000 at f/8? Wouldn’t the exposures be more accurate if I use exposure compensation to achieve the 1/100 at f/22, 1/200 at f/16, 1/400 at f/11, etc?

 

That’s basically what I am trying to figure out; achieving the closest exposure possible. Then I can branch out from there and experiment with other scenarios.

Here is a link to Ektachrome 100: https://www.tate.org.uk/download/file/fid/20945

 

If you are taking something really important with reversal film and have no meter it's always best to bracket.

 

Here's one for Provia 100: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/provia_100f_datasheet.pdf

 

Note that the shutter speed is 1/250th

 

Assuming that your OM2's meter is good and that you are really worried about getting it right, a gray card is nice to have. All good photo shops carry them.

I know the ultimate exposure meter that will help you.. I found this extremely helpful.. a good read/reference!

 

Ultimate Exposure Computer

I wouldn't worry too much about 1/3 stop discrepancies between ASA/ISO and the marked shutter speeds on an old mechanical camera--the shutter speeds are likely to be slower than the nominal settings that are marked due to age, etc. As for metering, if you have a smart phone you can download a free light meter app, which I would recommend highly over the sunny 16 system for slide film. Another option would be using one of your other film cameras as a meter. Previous posts are correct about the exposure latitude of negative film, especially on the over exposure side for color negative films. When I shot them professionally, I routinely down rated the ASA by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop in the direction of over exposure since it seemed to minimize grain and guarantee good shadow detail with the labs that I used.

Having a working meter in the Selecta would also make no difference to the fixed (and probably fairly inaccurate) shutter speeds available to you. So why get worked up about being 'accurate' with a table that's going to be hardly better than guesswork anyway?

 

Why not compare your sunny 16 guesstimate table with meter readings from one of your many working cameras, and see how close it comes?

I've found when using old cameras with non-standard shutter speeds that setting for the next slower marked speed almost always works well -- when using negative film of course!

I've found when using old cameras with non-standard shutter speeds that setting for the next slower marked speed almost always works well -- when using negative film of course!

 

Thanks to you and others who have reminded me of negative film's exposure latitude, especially with b/w film. I intend on using this with the Agfa Selecta and Tmax. It'll be awesome to see my dad's old camera snap to life.

 

Having a working meter in the Selecta would also make no difference to the fixed (and probably fairly inaccurate) shutter speeds available to you. So why get worked up about being 'accurate' with a table that's going to be hardly better than guesswork anyway?

 

Why not compare your sunny 16 guesstimate table with meter readings from one of your many working cameras, and see how close it comes?

 

I completely see what you're saying. I guess it is true that many of these old camera - including the the '70-80's SLR's - can have slightly slower shutter speeds due to age. Thank you for bringing this potential problem to my attention. To provide background, I have never before been a full manual shooter. Starting with my digital-only days, I have largely shot aperture priority which is available on the Nikon FE, ME Super, and OM-2n cameras. Since finding my dad's old Agfa and acquiring the MX, I have been interested in learning how to shoot full manual. I believe it will produce better photos because of gauging the incident light instead of metering the reflecting light. This will be especially helpful at the beach with all the water and sand reflecting light and using E-6 film. I am seeking a somewhat reliable base formula to start off from, even if it means bracketing to figure out how it reacts with each camera. This isn't me trying to be stubborn, I am simply trying to step away from always using some sort of metering help with most of my images and finding a way to do that with assistance instead of pure guesswork.

 

With that said, here are the questions. First, is there a base formula to start with outside of Sunny 16 or is that it for now? Second, if Sunny 16 is what I am stuck with using, will the camera's set shutter speeds be adequate for use with E-6 film or should I look to get as close as possible to the ISO/ASA reciprocal (with the proper stop adjustments made, of course)?

Try some E-6 at the beach with that little ME Super. If you wish, bump the little exposure compensation dial.

I have had very good results in such circumstances with that camera, even without using the compensation dial.

Meter gets it right.

I have found that if I pay attention to the circumstances, I learn the exposures fairly quickly.

Practice setting the camera and then check it with the meter.....

Specific to the (in)accurate workings of your Agfa Selecta, I would run a roll of reversal film through it, shooting a FRONT LIT FULL Sunlight Scene, between the hours of 1000 and 1400 in Summer, Autumn or Spring (i.e. a typical exposure of F/16 @ 1/ISO @ ISO) - and make several shots using as many of the Apertures and Shutter Speed combinations, recording each frame's shooting specs.

 

If you have a 2 stop or 3 stop ND filter that would be useful.

 

In this way you can make a table and by simple observation of the density comparison of the frames, you should be able to accertain a reasonable overview of what is probably stuffed and what is more accurate.

 

WW

Between film latitude and the ability to edit the images once they are digitized, the differences you speak are really of no concern.

Photographers shot billions of well exposed slides with equipment similar to what you're using--there's no substitute for experience, though. William's suggestion of a test roll is a good one since it should give you a baseline for your camera's shutter speeds and it will show you what good and bad exposures look like. Make sure you take notes on your exposures since you won't have any metadata to rely on.

Some old cameras had red dots on their aperture and focus scales for exposing acceptable images for printing. Not saying your Agfa has them but the aperture red dots were nearly always around f11, sometimes f8. The focus red dot were around 8 meters. The speeds, while not having a red dot, depended in film speed but I guess for 64ASA or 100ASA, 100/sec or 125/sec was recommended (in bright sunlight coming from behind your head). These red dot settings were for long depth of field to keep most things in focus from between 5 meters to infinity, therefore ensuring repeat business for the processing labs and continued film sales, no one wanted out of focus kids or Mum and Dad

 

Perhaps the idea would be to start with small aperture openings say f11, f16 and at least maintain reasonably sharp focus throughout the scene, then any discrepancy in exposure could be corrected in post processing. However, if you avoid dark shadows and really bright highlights, the only post processing needed could possibly be only adjustment to "Levels" for your B&W

 

I'm looking out my window now, it's a sunny day with no cloud cover so my settings on one of my old Zeiss Ikons or old folding Kodaks would be 100/sec at f8 for 100ASA, a second shot at f11 - let's see how I go with that, I'll grab my handheld meter which never lets me down and go outside to take a reading ..... Well I just did that and the reading was f8 and a half for 125/sec and f8 and a quarter for 100/sec with the Sun behind me, the scene was a general landscape scene close to home with clusters of trees and some shadowy areas, the needle hardly moved wherever I pointed the meter, but when I turned around 180, f22 was the reading with the Sun in front of me and with some sky getting into the reading. Had I taken those bracketed shots, f8 and f11 with the Sun behind, both would be acceptable in B&W, but with E6, I would have to choose, which one showed the most detail perhaps, or the one which exposed the main subject better than the other

Edited August 13, 2018 by kmac

Tradition was to round to whole stops, which gets you to within a half stop.

 

For negative films, a little more exposure is usually good, so I round toward more exposure.

 

ASA/ISO numbers are rounded to a third of a stop. Rounding that to the nearest whole stop gets you to within a half stop.

 

As above, your shutter might be a little slow by now, more likely than fast.