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Gossen Sinar Six Meter


marc_krouse

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I've been looking for a view camera birthday [21st] present for my

son recently, and while browsing at a local shop a customer dropped

off a Graflex Graphic View II with a G-Claron 9/150 on an original

lens board. A recessed lens board was included as well, all in the

original 'strange material' case. Whole camera appears unused. Very

funky.

 

Snap decision made and I bought it.

 

Also in the bottom of the case was this strange looking Gossen

metering set up. Sorta looks like a Luna Pro but the back plate has

metal tabs at the top and a strange rotating clip at the bottom. It

is attached to a wand that says SinarSix. Inside what appears to be

an original box is a shrink wrapped film holder dodad that has

printed instructions for use. Looks like it was never used. The wand

and the meter look like they have been used to some degree.

 

For newbie large format dudes, do we need this device and if not is

it worth anything? Seems awkward to use and I haven't yet figured

out how the metering dials work. And I have a 70's Luna Pro which I

love.

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The Sinar Six - co developed by Sinar & Gossen, Were the most sophisticated pinpoint-metering possible for view cameras (and about the same today, but surpassed by the Sinar Booster for Minolta flash meter systems + another flash-meter brand (courtnay?). You will find info about it here: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004HgD It uses the now obsolete mercury battery, but this is easily fixed by putting in a wein zinc-air cell instead (+ a little wrapping to compensate for slightly smaller diametre of the zinc-air sell compared to the PX 625. You will find info on this & other replacements by simply searching for PX 625 I guess, as the matter have been treated in deep. The SinarSix does a terriffic job - espesially in ths studio where time-use & the cumbersomeness of a big slip-in meter is not a big part of a possibly 1/2 hour set up. Taking into account bellows factor, light faklloff & givin possibility to do presise measurement in focus plane of a 4"x5" camera is unsurpassed even today, at best, measuring trough groundglass is possible with spesial metres. Newer Sinar P's have a so called "metering back" where only the probe is put in, making the use of the big cassette as well as movement of the GG unneccesary. For outdoor use however, You might find the somewhat big SinarSix a bit overkill... I have the Newer Mastersix-probe, but have not found an inexpensive Mastersik or Ultrasix meter to connect it to (all models after the original SinarSix had separate meter/probe). Since this one do not need the big cassette & the meter can be used ordinary as well, I intend to have it up & go for this season!

 

Good luck.

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  • 7 years later...
<p>I have the sinar six meter. I bought it YEARS ago, slightly used. I am having trouble calibrating it. I have the instruction book, but honestly, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do I use a grey card to calibrate the meter for use given a particular film speed? (100 or 125 in my case) I have gotten decent results, but I have guessed at the exposures (timing) even while using the meter. Comments? 4/23/11</p>
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  • 6 months later...

<p>Hi there<br>

For as far as I know that is not necessary.. There are two ways of measuring the light....<br>

- measure on a grey chart which gives you a 'middle value' this is used for subjects without a large range of colours and shadows<br>

- measure white and black value where you still want details before absolute pure black/white and combine them on the dials.<br>

The calibration would be something that needs to be done as maintenance or service by Gossen. You need to use the appropriate type of well charged batteries and clean contacts etc... and should not have anything to do. <br>

The gray chart is for sure not used to calibrate... but for subjects rather monochromatic. <br>

Sylvie </p>

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  • 6 years later...

Hi,

 

Can someone help with a scanned version of the manual for Gossen SinarSix in English or German ? I have just bought one of these light meters but for my bad luck it has only a French manual.

Thank you in advance for your help. My e-mail is mg.vassilev@quicknet.nl.

Nikon Z7,

Nikon F3,

Contax RTX,

Contax A,

ShenHao PTB45 with 4"x5" and 6x9 magazines plus Nikon F-Mount Digital adapter back,

Voightlander BESSA R2M 250 Jaher Jubilee Edition

http://D

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My advice would be to just sell the Sinarsix for whatever you can get for it.

 

The whole concept was flawed from the very outset. It was supposed to allow spot metering from the film plane - except nobody at Sinar seemed to realise that all ambient light needed to be excluded from the focusing/viewing screen before it could possibly be accurate.

 

That's leaving aside that spot metering is highly subjective, and that the human eye just isn't very good at judging absolute brightness. So where exactly do you want to place your 'Zone V' or 18% grey or whatever you want to call it? On that apple, shaded skin, particular bit of rock or tree, or wherever? And if you choose something that you know is supposed to be mid-grey, then where's the advantage over an incident reading?

 

If you still think spot metering is a good idea, get a proper handheld spot meter that you don't have to blackout the back of your camera for to get a reading.

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In one of Ansel Adams Basic Photo series he has a discussion on the Sinar Six Meter. It was in Book One of the one - five series of books before he published the Revised series that only consisted of Book 1, 2, 3.

 

He had a fairly complete discussion and a few photographs of the meter placed behind the ground glass. Here is a link to the book on eBay, unfortunately it is signed and not priced for just reading. But this is the book with the Sinar discussion.

SIGNED Ansel Adams Camera and Lens Basic Photo One Revised Fourth Print HC DJ | eBay

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In one of Ansel Adams Basic Photo series he has a discussion on the Sinar Six Meter. It was in Book One of the one - five series of books before he published the Revised series that only consisted of Book 1, 2, 3.

 

He had a fairly complete discussion and a few photographs of the meter placed behind the ground glass. Here is a link to the book on eBay, unfortunately it is signed and not priced for just reading. But this is the book with the Sinar discussion.

SIGNED Ansel Adams Camera and Lens Basic Photo One Revised Fourth Print HC DJ | eBay

 

- Yes, well Ansel's maths must have been a bit rocky if he thought that 18% reflectance was 3 stops less than 100%. Or maybe he just didn't notice the 1/2 stop discrepancy?

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The bearing it has is; that if the OP is hoping to implement the Zone system, then it should be realised that Ansel's Zone spacings (stated as exactly one stop each change in exposure) are a house built on sand.

 

You cannot reconcile 'white with texture' at Zone VIII with Zone V having an 18% reflectance. It would mean objects at Zone VIII having a reflectance of 144%! So either there's a linearity error of 0.5 stop across 3 zones, or Zone V just ain't 18% reflectance as Ansel firmly claimed.

 

And if a half stop error goes un-noticed, then what's the point of making such a fuss over 'accurate' exposure measurement?

Edited by rodeo_joe|1
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I believe Adams said the amount of gray in an 18% reflectance gray card approximates the Zone V print value. If I place an 18% gray card on a white wall in direct sun and there is a 3 to 4 f/stop difference in meter readings between the gray card and the white wall, nobody is going to believe the wall is reflecting 144 to 288% of the light falling on it. And the Zone system is about how much light is striking the negative and controlling the negative densities to keep that texture in the low and high values. We are measuring the brightness of the light reflecting off objects, and "zones" don't double in % reflectance, but in brightness.
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"We are measuring the brightness of the light reflecting off objects, and "zones" don't double in %reflectance, but in brightness."

 

- They're exactly the same thing. Whether you measure light linearly, say in lux, or logarithmically in stops, the measurement method doesn't change the amount of light.

And, yes, I've done the measurement of grey card/white wall (or equivalent) and there's 2.5 stops between them. Try it yourself.

 

Or alternatively, point a meter at a surface that approximates 100% Lambertian reflectance - for example, virgin powder snow, a clean white-washed wall, white paper, a sheet of expanded polystyrene, etc. Then add 2.5 stops to that reading and compare it to what you get from a grey card or an incident reading.

 

However you cut it, there's no way that zone 8 is 3 stops more bright than an 18% grey card.

 

"...nobody is going to believe the wall is reflecting 144 to 288% of the light falling on it."

 

- Exactly!

Edited by rodeo_joe|1
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Of course Zone 8 is 3 stops more than the brightness of an 18% gray card when placed on Zone 5, and Zone 9 is 4 stops, and Zone 10 is 5 stops; based upon the definition of "zones" they must be. Walk into a forest and place the gray card on the trunk of a tree and measure the brightness and place it on Zone 5. Then measure the brightness of the surrounding area "in sun" and calculate the zone difference. If you want the tree bark to have a Zone 5 density in the negative, you will probably need to reduce the development of the negative to control the high densities so they will not be "blocked", since they will exceed your 2 1/2 Zone maximum. I admit I have changed the "quality" of the light in this scenario [shade and full sun], but in many photographic situations by placing what you want to be on Zone 5 will have have other objects exceeding 2 1/2 stops.

 

The tonality of the gray in the 18% reflectance gray card represents "middle gray" between the maximum black & maximum white of photographic paper. And as we all know, the card can have applications in trying to determine the exposure of a scene. Adams never said in his basic photo series what you claim in your post where you say "Ansel's maths must have been a bit rocky if he thought that 18% reflectance was 3 stops less than 100%".

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Of course Zone 8 is 3 stops more than the brightness of an 18% gray card when placed on Zone 5, and Zone 9 is 4 stops, and Zone 10 is 5 stops; based upon the definition of "zones" they must be. Walk into a forest and place the gray card on the trunk of a tree and measure the brightness and place it on Zone 5. Then measure the brightness of the surrounding area "in sun" and calculate the zone difference. If you want the tree bark to have a Zone 5 density in the negative, you will probably need to reduce the development of the negative to control the high densities so they will not be "blocked", since they will exceed your 2 1/2 Zone maximum. I admit I have changed the "quality" of the light in this scenario [shade and full sun], but in many photographic situations by placing what you want to be on Zone 5 will have have other objects exceeding 2 1/2 stops.

 

The tonality of the gray in the 18% reflectance gray card represents "middle gray" between the maximum black & maximum white of photographic paper. And as we all know, the card can have applications in trying to determine the exposure of a scene. Adams never said in his basic photo series what you claim in your post where you say "Ansel's maths must have been a bit rocky if he thought that 18% reflectance was 3 stops less than 100%".

 

- You're completely missing the point. By definition, 18% reflectance is (just under) 2.5 stops less reflective than 100% reflectance. Not 3 or 4 stops. Therefore either the Zone definitions are wrong, the zone spacings are wrong, or Zone V cannot have 18% reflectance.

 

Print densities have absolutely nothing to do with this metering issue. The Zone definitions and metering techniques are clearly set out in Ansel's book "The Negative", which doesn't deal with print densities at all. Adams clearly states, several times, that he equates Zone V with 18% reflectance.

 

You can argue all you like that a scene may contain highlights that exceed 100% reflectance, but these do not fall within Adams' verbal definition of tones or surfaces in Zone VIII. I quote from p60 of 'The Negative': "Whites with texture and delicate values; textured snow, highlights on Caucasian skin.", which to me sounds exactly like a surface with close to 100% Lambertian (pure matt) reflectance.

 

Even white clouds will have close to 100% reflectance, since they're basically steam hanging in the air.

 

On the same page we get Zone V described as: "Middle gray (18% reflectance). Clear north sky as rendered by panchromatic film, dark skin, gray stone, average weathered wood."

 

Now all of those definitions are highly variable, all except the very definite "(18% reflectance)". And that cannot possibly be mathematically reconciled with the above definition of Zone VIII.

 

If, however, we re-define Zone V as having 12.5 or 13% reflectance then everything falls into place. This also nicely aligns with the 'O', 'U' and 'C' markings seen on early Weston meters, and with the commonly accepted 7 stop printable range of a normally developed B&W negative.

 

Everyone can make mistakes, but to overlook a persistent half stop error for an entire career must be some sort of record!

Edited by rodeo_joe|1
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Rodeo_Joe,

 

Your logic reminds of the old math conundrum from the 1940's. Three men are traveling together and need to find a room in a small town. The only motel in town has 1 room left to rent. The clerk says that the room rents for $30.00 he can add a roll-a-way bed at no charge. Each man pays the clerk with a $10.00 bill. Later the manager comes in a tells the clerk he has overcharged the them for the room, it is only $25.00. He gives the clerk 5 $1.00 bills and tells him to return the cash to the gentlemen. The clerk realizes they cannot evenly divide the 5 dollars between them and pockets 2 dollars. He gives each man a dollar and leaves. Now, each man has paid $9.00 for the room; 3 times $9.00 is $27.00, plus the $2.00 in the clerks pocket equal $29.00. Where is the other dollar?

 

By taking the $2.00 out context it appears a dollar is missing, when in reality all the money is accounted for. When the men paid $30.00, there was $30.00 in the office; 30 = 30. When the men paid $27.00, there was $25.00 in the office and $2.00 with the clerk; 27 = 25 +2.

 

To understand the concept of the Zone system you have to have a few standards. If you take a piece of your photographic paper and expose it to room light for 5 second, develop in Dektol for 3 minutes, you will have a maximum black print. If you develop a piece of photographic paper without being exposed, you will have a maximum white print. There are infinite shades of gray between the two, and the gray of the 18% reflectance gray card by definition is middle gray. Adams defined this gray as Zone V print value. In the passages you quote from Book 2, he is discussing the naturalistic rendering of objects in various zones. The reflectance of average weathered wood may not reflect the same amount of light as the 18% reflectance gray card when measured side by side, but a naturalistic rendering of the wood to appear with the same tonal value of the gray card requires placing it on Zone V. I have never said a scene may contain highlights that exceed 100% reflectance. I have said that depending the quality of the light reflecting from the gray card, other objects in the scene can have reflective densities that fall on zones higher than Zone VII. Keep in mind, everything Adams discusses in Book 2 ultimately relates to print values; shades of gray.

 

I don't think Adams would disagree with you when you pose the issue as measuring the gray card in direct sunlight and basing the exposure on that reflectance. The reflectance of the all the other objects in direct sunlight cannot exceed Zone VII. But if you place the gray card in the same scene in shade and base the exposure on that reflectance, you will exceed Zone VII. And when you drill down on the Zone System, his point is make sure when you expose the negative you have enough exposure in the shadows for the texture or detail you want in the print, and adjust the development of the negative to control where the other values fall.

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Good grief!

 

This has nothing to do with renting rooms or putting grey cards in the shade while we measure something completely different in a different light. Nor with fogging a bit of bromide paper and developing it.

 

It's pure sensitometry, and Ansel's claim of Zone V having 18% reflectance just doesn't add up.

 

If you read pp57-60 of 'The Negative' you'll see illustrations of what Adams considers representative of his zones. In one illustration, the white barge boards (having approximately 100% matt reflectance, within a few percent) of a house are labelled as Zone VIII, while in the same light, an included 18% card is labelled as Zone V. There's the dichotomy; they can't both be true. There's a discrepancy of half a stop. Full stop.

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