What's wrong with Horseman 6x9?

More precisely - why this is not a succesfull MF system for landscape

photography? It is light (much lighter than e.g. Fuji 680),

affordable (slightly more than 1000$ for camera plus 65/105/180 lens

at KEH), has full movements (Fuji 680 is restricted in this domain),

and gives really big pictures - 6x9!

 

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This question is triggered by an answer to 'Horseman 6x9' question -

it is suggested that Fuji 690 may be a better buy. Horseman is

skipped over in virtually all overviews of MF for landscape in

favor of Pentax 67 (SLR but not movements, approx. the same weight

and price for a system, smaller neg), Mamiya rangefinders (portable

and light, but in all other respects Horseman seems to be better),

and Fuji line, including even the expensive and _heavy_ 680. Why?

 

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I never worked with groundlasses and view cameras - maybe here is

the answer?

 

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Regards to all

 

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Ryszard Stasinski

I think i can explain why Horseman 6x9 systems are not very popular :

First it is a camera for very precise composition and setting of all things that can be adjusted. It is the opposite of a Pentax 645. No motor transport etc.

Taking a single picture with a Horseman requieres much more attention. When you're finished with the adjustments you have to exchange the groundglass with the film cassette. Now your question will be : Why did you ever buy one ??

With this camera you can do so much that a pentax 67 or 645 or a Hasselblad will not allow you. I've taken beautiful pictures on slidefilm from an Oil refinary plant, using perspective corrections etc. With these camera's you're not restricted to the lenses produced buy the original manufacterer. You can choose to use Schneider or Rodenstock or something else. With an adapter you can use sheetfilm, or 4x5 inch etc. By the way i cannot imagine that a horseman, in very good condition, with 3 lenses is for sale for +/- $1000,- if you compare this with new prices. This camera will last you for the rest of your life. All parts can be very easily exchanged by the user. It is really a pleasure to work with. For quick and fast work, i prefer Pentax 67, but only for that. And the whole Horseman set, due to the dimensions of the lenses is much more transportable.

I don't use a Horseman, but use a 2x3 Crown Graphics converted

to have full front movements (an older and cheaper alternative

to a Horseman or Linhof). For all practical purposes it is a

large format camera that happens to be much lighter in weight.

As a travelling view camera for landscapes it is excellent, but

for someone who is not already used to a 4x5 it would probably

not be very attractive since the whole mode of use is very different

than say a Fuji GSW690 (which I also use, especially when a tripod

is not likely to be feasible). Having the perspective control and

the plane of focus control from the movements makes both landscape

and building photography much more pleasant, but only if you are

willing to take 15 minutes per exposure.

It may be worth noting that John Shaw uses one on occasion. You can see some pictures he took with it in his book <U>Focus on Nature</U>. He does say he still prefers the convenience of 35mm, which he uses most of the time, but when he needs those movements, he pulls out the Horseman. It sure sounds like a good compromise system to me.

 

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And to John Lehman, who said you have to be willing to dedicate 15 minutes to a single exposure-- I frequently take that long when shooting 35mm! :-)

I haven't used one, but after buying a Mamiya 6 system, I've thought about trading my Pentax 67 system for one. Here's one concern I've had: What is the shortest lens that you can use with this camera and still have reasonable movements? When I see systems advertised, the shortest lens seems to be a 65, which isn't as wide as I'd like (I use the 45mm a lot with the Pentax.)

Yes the Horseman is a "groundglass" medium format camera with just about all the movements of your modern 4x5 field cameras. I own the model 985 with 4 lenses: 65, 90, 105, & 150. I shoot on rollfilm with a 2x3 Horseman back. The lenses all have cams and allow you in conjunction with a bright accuate viewfinder to compose via the rangefinder. I was amazed at how accurate the marked grid lines are to the actual image area on the negative. Of course, if you are doing closeup work, or for very critical copying, you should check the image on the ground glass. You can also, if you are lucky, find an optical viewer for the groundglass that snaps on and off easily so you can view and then put your rollfilm back on to shoot. You get an incredible and versatile system for between 1,000 and 2,000 dollars.

I shoot the landscape at Point Reyes National Seashore in B&W, develop my films in Gordon Hutchings PMK pyro formula and print ltd edition prints up to 20x24" from the beautiful negs I have made with my Horseman. I think one reason you don't here so much about this camera is that doesn't have a built in meter or a mirror such as your SLR cameras have. It's a real photographer's camera and a joy to work with!

I use my VH-R all the time... any time I don't need to shoot quickly (where I would use my RB67).

 

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The wide image circle of the Horseman "Super" lenses fits nicely the front standard movements of this excellent camera. (Only fault... bellows gets kinda crinkled at full rise with 65mm.)

 

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Yes, an altered Crown Graphic will handle most landscapes stuff as well, but I find myself using tilts and swings rather a lot for some nature stuff, for "endless" depth-of-field. Ever want to shoot a close-up of a fern, set obliquely to film plane?

 

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Swapping ground glass and film backs takes far less time than setting up shot; so not a liabilty. Also, I can use cutfilm holders, which are even faster and allow individual film developments. Since this is a Graflok-type back, I can use my four RB67 holders with the Horseman, making for great versatility.

 

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Apart from all that, I find the VH-R is a fair press-type camera. A Vivitar 285 in the topside hot shoe is a near-perfect flash-bracket location for indoor people candids. (Users of Speed Graphics and screw-mount Leicas will not object to rangefinder separate from viewfinder.) Besides, the top-mounted focusing scale is easy to read and accurate. I can run around a cocktail reception all night with 65mm set at f/16 (with Vivitar set accordingly) and guestimate adequately sharp candids.

Thank you to all for very interesting answers. The very points for me

are that this is a sort of LF but lighter, and that this camera will

last forever, so, the 'bargain' body and 3 'ex' lens for not much

more than 1000$ will be probably working for years.

 

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Ryszard Stasisnki

I use my Horseman VH-R whenever I want crisp, grainless b&w negs and/or transparencies and will be in a situation where I can take the time necessary to work from a tripod. Most of my Horseman shooting is nature type stuff where I want the finest renderings of tones and textures. The Horseman gives me 6x9cm images in a camera that is very compact and portable. I cary my entire system in a a 14 x 18" case. I often click the camera into my Bolex tripod and hike through woods and climb over rocks with the camera attached and folded closed. I also always use the focusing hood which allows me to clearly see the entire groundglass and focus effortlessly.

When I shoot 35mm in these situations I am almost always disappointed with the results. The 24x36mm image just can't deliver what the 6x9cm frame can.

I began my medium format experience with a Hasselblad- but didn't like the square picture requirement. Then I found the Crown Graphic "23". This gave me rectangular images with amazing quality. It's biggest limitation was it's inability to provide much in the way of tilts when in the horizontal mode, and NO tilts at all in the vertical mode...when you need them even more!

I went to the Horseman VH-R because it gave me the ability to use tilts, swings, revolving back, optical viewfinder w/ frame markings, coupled rangfinder,... on a compact 6x9 camera that is engineered and made to the highest quality.

-- Why this is not a succesfull MF system for landscape photography?

 

I agree with you that the VHR is ideal for landscapes, and even more so for architecture and those skew-focused people and product shots out there, but here's why it loses market share to rollfilm SLR/Rangefinder and 4x5:

 

As evidenced by some comments before this one, many people will buy a medium format SLR/Rangefinder of other types for its usefulness outside of landscape photography, and then use it for landscape photography because it's what they have and it doesn't seem worth buying a second camera and lenses, when your current wide lenses will do most of the tricks. The VHR does not make many peoples' needs in studio, product, portrait, candid or event photography (for many reasons outlined above), so it's not a first choice for most professional photographers.

 

I think another problem is the wide-angle lens selection. If you want a true wide-angle lens, you're limited to Rodenstock 35mm APO grandagon or Schneider 47mm both of which are expensive. If you buy that 47mm lens, it will be even wider if you use it on a 4x5, and a (cheaper) 65mm on a 4x5 would accomplish what the 47mm does on the 6x9. Also, since there are no cams for these lenses, the Horseman rangefinder is not a particular advantage in Landscape.

 

I think that the Horseman 6x9s beautifuly serve a small market (like this group?) who like its extreme versatility (for travel?), and don't need the convenieces either because of our patient shooting style or because we have other cameras for those fast shots.

 

Whew, sorry my $0.02 became $0.04 pretty quickly (in volume, at least).

I think that's asking the wrong question.

The Horseman is the ideal camera for a photographer wanting very high quality images on 120 or 4x5" film and wanting it in a easy-to-carry package.

I have used my VHR as a "point-and-shoot" with a 105mm focused at the hyperfocal distance, I've even used it as a action sports camera with a wire-frame viewfinder, and can honestly say that if your'e allowed close enough to the action, nothing beats a wire-frame for capturing "the magical moment" as you see the action all around you while composing.

Ive used the rangefinder for portraiture, and it focuses well enogh to place focus on the eyes.

And of course I've used it as a ground-glass focusing field camera for architecture, commercial photography and art.

 

Is there any other camera as versatile? 'Fraid not!

 

Regards

Paul Rasmussen

"Photographica"

Why do you think it's not a successful MF system for landscape photography? The cameras are fairly easy to find at good prices, indicating that quite a number have been sold (much more common than 6X17 systems, for example) and a wide range of lenses and accessories also seem to be available on the used market. Most photographers that I have spoken to that use Horseman 6X9 systems use them for landscape work primarily. I do as well, including the use of the 612 back with the 4X5 adapter.

<p>My Horseman 985 <em>has</em> been a successful landscape photography system! I adapted a Mamiya Press 65mm to it, have the Horseman 75mm, Ektar 105mm (also have the Horseman Professional 105, but the little old Ektar puts it to shame), a 120 Angulon and a 180 Horseman. One day, maybe I'll find a 4x5 back for it.<br>

Because you are not forced to carry a separate focusing mechanism with each lens, this makes an extremely versatile system that costs little, is as image-capable as any medium format system, and fits into a small case.<br>

Each camera system has its own advantages and weaknesses, but the real challenge is training the system <em>between our ears</em> to see with the capabilities of the camera we have at hand. If serious, philosophical photography were the goal, many of us would do well to stick with one camera and lens for a long time and let our minds sort things out. <br>

It's kind of like those 3-dimensional pictures you have to stare cross-eyed at until the thing jumps out at you, your mind will finally get it, if you give it time to. Horsemans (Horsemen?) are better at teaching that than many more convenient cameras are.</p>

Compatible lenses: Horseman 6×9 lenses

I don't use a Horseman, but use a 2x3 Crown Graphics converted

to have full front movements (an older and cheaper alternative

to a Horseman or Linhof). For all practical purposes it is a

large format camera that happens to be much lighter in weight.

As a travelling view camera for landscapes it is excellent, but

for someone who is not already used to a 4x5 it would probably

not be very attractive since the whole mode of use is very different

than say a Fuji GSW690 (which I also use, especially when a tripod

is not likely to be feasible). Having the perspective control and

the plane of focus control from the movements makes both landscape

and building photography much more pleasant, but only if you are

willing to take 15 minutes per exposure.

 

Could you clarify a bit how you added extra movements to your Crown Graphics? I have two 2x3 Speed Graphics and I might be interested.in doing them.

Could you clarify a bit how you added extra movements to your Crown Graphics? I have two 2x3 Speed Graphics and I might be interested.in doing them.

Congratulations! You have just replied to an eleven year old post.

The only thing wrong with it is ...it uses film.