Flash suggestions ...

I found I shoot about the same number of shots film or digital. 11 years ago I shot a wedding and I used 7 rolls of 36 exposures. A couple week ago I shot another wedding and I made 287 shots.

I used the Metz 60CT4 in A mode and I only have fewer than 5 shots that are overexposed in the JPEG but can be correct with the RAW files. All others are fine. I am tired of Nikon TTL as it seems to only work well for fill flash.

"Not to make too fine a point about it, but those examples you guys are referring to from the film era 2, 3 decades ago are not very relevant in this discussion."

 

- A pulse of light is a pulse of light, and doesn't care if it's final destination is a strip of film or a digital sensor. My DSLR sensors don't know whether I'm using a 30 year old SB-24, a 40 year old Mecablitz CT-45 (no fan cooling BTW) or a Godox V860 that I bought 18 months ago. And to be truthful I couldn't tell from just looking at the image either.

Rodeo Joe, I suggest you take a look at Ben and BeBu's responses to my post. They may disagree with me, but at least they understand my point. Your answer clearly shows that you don't even get what I am talking about.

I just found this old thread from 10 years ago:

How long will an SB800 last?

 

In particular, please take a look at Dan Gin's post on August 28, 2008. He is/was clearly a full-time wedding, event photographer and had his SB-800 flashes repaired on a fairly regular basis. Interestingly he also mentioned the then brand new SB-900. Nikon introduced the SB-900 on July 1, 2008 and it was almost immediately available, as I recall that I got one quickly. Dan Gin's post was made less than 2 months since the SB-900 became available. However, the link to his blog seems to be out of date now.

Edited April 23, 2018 by ShunCheung

Here is an image of all the Nikon flashes mentioned on this thread side by side. The size difference should be quite clear.

 

There are definitely plenty of trade offs. Since the OP mentioned using the pop-up flash as the commander, I think it is safe to assume he is not talking about film SLRs or the latest DSLR that can use radio trigger, as none of the D5, D500, and D850 has a pop-up flash.

 

All 6 flashes here can be a CLS slave, and only the outer two, the SB-600 and SB-5000, cannot be the CLS master.

1. The SB-600 and SD-800 are the oldest two; they have a menu system that is hard to navigate. I happen to have no problem with the SB-800 since I have used it over and over, but I can see most people have difficulty with it.
   
2. The SB-900 and 910 are big, and the 900 has more overheat issues. When I travel, I prefer to take the SB-800 for its smaller size.
   
3. SB-700: unlike the 600, the 700 can be a CLS master. I like it a lot, but it is not as powerful as the 4 models to its right in the image. It is actually slightly bigger than the SB-800.
   
4. SB-5000: both radio trigger and CLS compatible, but it cannot be a CLS master. Has a built-in fan to cool its flash tube, but expensive. Actually most Nikon flashes are expensive when new.
   

One thing to keep in mind is that Nikon discontinued the SB-800 almost 10 years ago. Therefore availability of parts can be an issue already or may soon become an issue should you need to replace the flash tube, for example.

 

As I said, there are various trade offs and also third-party options. Concerning buying used, it depends on price and your tolerance of risks. Again, I am only providing facts and some of my opinions. My opinions may or may not apply to your case.

 

 

[ATTACH=full]1242559[/ATTACH]

 

Thanks Shun for the picture. Now I know if I buy a Nikon flash it wouldn't be the SB-5000. Most likely the SB-800.

Where is the most heat generated/dissipated in a speedlight?

 

A typical photographic Xenon tube outputs 40 ~ 45 lumen/watt. That means approximately 12% of the energy input into it is output as visible light; the rest being output mainly as heat. The stored energy in the flash capacitor of a good quality speedlight is 75 Joules, the majority of which is disharged in 3 milliseconds at full 'power' output.

 

So we have an average power into the Xenon tube of 60 Kilowatts over 3 milliseconds, 88% of which is radiated as heat. That's over 50 Kilowatts of heat!

 

With a (say) recycle time of 3 seconds, the average heat wattage emanating from the tube is 50 Watts. That's quite hot! And if repeated will build up in the head and fresnel condenser to cause distortion and melting of the plastic fresnel lens.

 

OTOH, a well-designed inverter circuit could be 90% efficient and only dissipate 2.5 Watts over the same 3 second period.

 

Meanwhile the 6v battery of cells has had to supply an average current of over 4.5 amps to charge the capacitor. It's difficult to put a figure on the heat generated in the cells, because it depends on their internal resistance, but it won't be insignificant.

 

In short, it's not the inverter circuit that takes the brunt of heavy speedlight usage; it's the head and fresnel lens. And this is not just theory. I've had the plastic fresnel bubble and distort on one of my speedlights through accidental overheat! There were no other signs of long-term damage, and the body of the speedlight got barely warm to the touch.

Edited April 24, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

Shun can the sb 5000 not be used as a master optically to trigger other nikon flash guns like sb 700 as remote ?

Shun can the sb 5000 not be used as a master optically to trigger other nikon flash guns like sb 700 as remote ?

The SB-5000 can be a Nikon radio-trigger slave flash or a Nikon CLS (optical) slave, but it cannot be a CLS master.

Shun if I mount my SB 5000 on my D810 and mount my two SB 700 on flash stand for (as off camera flash) can I trigger all the three?

At this setting in sb 5000 as an on camera flash and two of my sb 700 as off camera flash I thought I was using the CLS optically.

Syed, you are right. It turns out that the SB-5000 can be a CLS master as well, which is good news. I think I might have read some wrong information earlier. Additionally, Nikon has changed the switch settings on the SB-5000. On the SB-700 and SB-900/910, there are the on, off, remote and master settings on the switch on the lower right side. There is no master setting on the SB-5000, as the new flash is more complex since it has radio and optical options.

 

This document has some good information:

https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-aQIVEfvQ997L3sEfoYqWIUIXQ_itzHLudHmxCfWXK4R0hUiB1bk2Q/PDF/SB-5000_Web.pdf

 

I would go for a used SB-800 and judge its condition by its cosmetics and included accessories if I cannot test it in person. If it charges on time and puts out light (tested via M and the guide number rule) like it should, it can be a bargain in the long run.

 

I have bought lots used flashes from Canon, Metz, Nikon and Sunpak and others over the decades. None ever caused me any problems.

 

I respect that Shun advices against buying such an old model, but in this case I strongly and respectfully disagree with him. The line between facts and opinion is thin. Comparing the monetary risk between an SB-800 and say an 400/2.8 AF-I lens in terms of what may be an expensive paper weight is really not the best comparison. Looking through the posts in this thread, consensus, apart from Shun, is that you need not be more sceptical about buying a used flash than anything else second hand.

Bratnikontin, I would recommend that you go with a flash that offers radio wireless or buy a used Nikon and buy radio triggers that will allow ttl and high speed sync. High speed sync so you can shoot in broad daylight with the aperture wide open. The SB 5000 has radio wireless and is very expensive but there is also mid priced Phottix and even less expensive Goddox and Yongnuo with radio wireless flashes. I think for shooting out doors the radio wireless beats optical hands down. If you shoot manual then consider the fully manual Lumipro 180 and buy a set of inexpensive radio triggers from B&H. I shoot Nikon strobes SB 25, 800, 910 but have wireless radio triggers and prefer manual because of the symplicity. I tend to shoot with a strobe intensively and then not use them for a while so when I go back to using a flash I don't like to spend time setting the ttl. The newer third party systems all seem to have a built in radio trigger and maintain ttl if that's your pleasure. I have generally had good luck buying used but if you use a flash all the time for weddings I would consider something new. Check out the strobistblogspot.com. Good hunting.

I second 20ceans , be aware that just a SB5000vdoes not give you Radio control though, you still need to aquire a WR-R10 transmitter, and edpending on your camera also a WR-A10 aapter to mount the WR-R10 on your camera otherwise you cannot "radio-control" the SB5000 ...

 

Where i live those accesoiries seem to be "sold-out" most of the time ( even in the Nikon store...) ,so i gave up for now on going the SB5000 route for now...

Edited April 25, 2018 by c.p.m._van_het_kaar

Since the OP apparently used a single SB-600 for years, it seems unlikely that (s)he is using the flash professionally for events or weddings, or needs to command other flashes.

 

The SB-5000 is ridiculously expensive, and way overkill as a replacement for an SB-600. Let's keep it real.

Since the OP apparently used a single SB-600 for years, it seems unlikely that (s)he is using the flash professionally for events or weddings, or needs to command other flashes.

 

The SB-5000 is ridiculously expensive, and way overkill as a replacement for an SB-600. Let's keep it real.

 

For me only the SB-800 would work with all my cameras.

First of all, please keep in mind that this is BratNikotin's thread. We are here to answer his questions as well as additional questions others may have posted to this thread.

 

Unfortunately the OP might have lost interest and hasn't provided any additional information. For example, it is unclear to me which Nikon camera(s) he has and what his budget is for another flash. He did mention that he uses to pop-up flash on his camera to control a remote SB-600.

 

The SB-5000 is certainly expensive at $600. Additionally, you need to use a WR-A10 on the camera to control the SB-5000 as a radio remote slave. The WR-A10 uses Nikon's 10-pin control, and only the higher-end Nikon (D)SLRs have the 10-pin connector. And this radio control only works on the D5, D500, and D850, not the older DSLRs nor the lower-end DSLRs. Since none among the D5, D500, and D850 has a pop-up flash, it is safe to assume that the OP's DSLR is not compatible with the SB-5000 radio control. Unless the OP buys one of those three DSLRs, you can forget about the SB-5000 radio control route.

 

And heimbrandt, I actually prefer disagreement and different opinions on these forums. Everybody has different needs, different preferences, different budgets .... I think we are much better off presenting different options to the OP and others who have questions, and let them decide what meets their needs best. I don't seek consensus here and I don't need to have a bunch of people who agree with me.

 

As I said, I still own two SB-800 from 2005, and they are still good today. The SB-800 is backward compatible with film TTL and Nikon's early digital D-TLL. Compatibility with film TTL was still important 10,15 years ago. Today, only a small number of people still use film TTL and that advantage is not significant any more, unless one happens to still shoot film and need flash. I don't know why people are so fixated on the SB-800. The OP was using an SB-600. The SB-700 could easily be a natural successor.

 

The SB-900 and 910 are big. If the OP has a D800 or D810, they may work well. On a small DSLR, putting an SB-900/910 on will make it very top heavy. If only used as a remote slave, size and weight is probably of a lesser concern.

 

BTW, used prices for the SB-800 seems to be around $250, +-$50 depending on condition, at KEH, B&H, etc. I recall paying around $330 for new ones back in 2005. In other words, used prices are not that low. AF-I lenses are actually an interesting comparison. If the AF motor inside your AF-I lens fails and you cannot find spare parts, that AF-I lens becomes manual focus only. Personally I wouldn't want a super tele without AF-S, but manual focus maybe acceptable to some and that lens won't be a paperweight. However, if your SB-800's internal electronics fails, replacing the flash tube or circuit board can easily be $150 to $200. Even though you can find parts, you wonder whether it is worthwhile to repair such an old flash. Of course, worst case is that you lose $250 on the SB-800; it is not the end of the world.

Edited April 25, 2018 by ShunCheung

I think the reason so many people fixed on the SB-800 was the OP's mention of 'power'. I, for one, took that to mean they wanted more light output than their SB-600 supplied. The SB-700 doesn't fulfill that criterion.

 

In fact the SB-700 is only as 'powerful' as almost any junk-box flash that can be picked up in a charity shop for peanuts.

 

So if the OP really does want/need more power, they have to look at something like an SB-800/900/910. Or at a 3rd party option; most of which have been mentioned already.

 

"BTW, used prices for the SB-800 seems to be around$250, +-$50"

 

- That's well overpriced! The last SB-800 I bought cost me £60 (~$90 US) at a camera fair. The diffuser flap had been busted off, but that's really no big deal. Apart from that it works perfectly.

Edited April 25, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

I think the reason so many people fixed on the SB-800 was the OP's mention of 'power'. I, for one, took that to mean they wanted more light output than their SB-600 supplied. The SB-700 doesn't fulfill that criterion.

 

In fact the SB-700 is only as 'powerful' as almost any junk-box flash that can be picked up in a charity shop for peanuts.

 

So if the OP really does want/need more power, they have to look at something like an SB-800/900/910. Or at a 3rd party option; most of which have been mentioned already.

 

"BTW, used prices for the SB-800 seems to be around$250, +-$50"

 

- That's well overpriced! The last SB-800 I bought cost me £60 (~$90 US) at a camera fair. The diffuser flap had been busted off, but that's really no big deal. Apart from that it works perfectly.

 

What about the Quantum? Are they compatible? They seem to have good power. I

The OP has been using an SB-600. He needs a new flash because the SB-600 was accidentally broken. At least I don't have the impression that he needs more power than what the SB-600 delivers. However, since the OP has not been engaging since the opening post, I would rather not be in the business of guessing what his needs are.

 

Since most Nikon flashes are on the expensive side, I was hoping that some people may provide suggestions on third-party options. Again, I have no personal experience with third-party flashes in the last 20, 30 years. The various reviews and comments on various forums about current Nikon-compatible third-party flashes seem to be mixed.

"I was hoping that some people may provide suggestions on third-party options.

 

Nissin Di866 ii or Godox 'Ving' V860 N. They both work extremely well for me. Don't touch a Meike 910, it has nothing like its advertised power.

 

Metz have a good reputation, but personally I think they're a bit overpriced and their latest models don't have a quality feel to them.

I don't know why people are so fixated on the SB-800. The OP was using an SB-600. The SB-700 could easily be a natural successor.

 

The OP wrote:

 

"I would need something that is as robust in functionality and powerful.

Basic requirements are:

- power

- must work on camera, and off camera with commander and with just command mode (using internal flash as a trigger)"

 

He mentions "power" twice, so it is a logical assumption that he wants something a little more powerful than his SB-600 - a step up.

 

Since he did not mention his camera, I suggested the SB-800; it will work on any Nikon camera digital or film.

 

Last, I mentioned it because I have one that I purchased used from KEH. So far, so good (as the man who jumped of the Empire State Building was heard to say as he fell past the 40th floor. "Only 40 more stories to go - so far, so good". <grin>).

 

On a more serious note, Shun, I, too, had reservations about purchasing a used flash - especially on that was probably used on digital cameras possibly by someone with a "Spray and Pray" mentality. I purchased a Ex+ condition flash hoping that anyone who took good cosmetic care of the unit also used it responsibly and probably was not a "Pro" shooter. who used it extensively. Cosmetic appearance is not a guarantee, but it is an indication. The current replacement for the SB-800 is the SB-5000 which is twice as expensive and will not work on my F100. I feel that even if the SB-800 dies, I am out less than half the price of the SB-5000 and can afford to purchase either a third party unit or another SB-800 and I have not lost anything.

Since most Nikon flashes are on the expensive side, I was hoping that some people may provide suggestions on third-party options. Again, I have no personal experience with third-party flashes in the last 20, 30 years.

 

I'm a bit of a Metz fanboy, but they tend to be more expensive than Nikon flashes and the UI can be clunky.

 

In any case, my SB-800 was an Ebay buy and came with everything but the box-flash, stand, gels, tupperware, 5th cell adapter, and pouch. It was $170 shipped, and the seller had a couple at that price(I wish that I'd bought more than one).

 

Since it does film TTL and plain old auto mode along with D-TTL and iTTL(not that anyone cares about D-TTL) I consider it the most versatile flash Nikon has ever made. I can take it straight from a Nikon F to my D800 and it will work great on both, although of course it's uncoupled on the F. That's why I pump it as a good choice.

The current SB 5000 would be my first choice. The SB 600 or SB 800 flashes have similar compatibilities and are still amazing if you can get one in good condition. Some of the less expensive third party flashes that have been mentioned can probably do the job just as well if not better and should be considered. Hopefully they are robust. I think that's key. Flash makers should take a lesson from the third party lens companies and start competing with quality components. I use third party radio triggers with my Nikon SB flash heads that are an order of magnitude less expensive than Pocket Wizards and do the job. Stay frosty.

The SB-5000 would indeed be a good choice if not for the stupid price ticket. It just isn't priced sensibly or competitively with a 3rd party flash plus radio TTL trigger kit.

 

You could almost kit out a studio for the price of one SB-5000, and one on its own isn't going to show any advantage over previous optically triggered AWL speedlights.

 

Nikon haven't increased the energy ('power') of their top line speedlights since the SB-24, BTW. The only difference is that the light output now more closely matches daylight on models since, and including the SB-800. I.e. they've got rid of the electronic flash 'blues' to a great extent.

 

As pointed out previously, the SB-600 & 700 are one whole stop less powerful.

Edited April 26, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

"Flashmakers should take a lesson from the third party lens companies and start competing with quality components."

 

- They already have!

The build quality of YongNuo, Nissin and Godox flashes, to name but 3, feels every bit as good as that of an SB-900/910, if not more so.

 

To be honest, my SB-25s feel more robust, but I guess the phrase 'they don't make 'em like that anymore' is true in this case. Although a metal hotshoe foot would probably be a welcome improvement.