Flash suggestions ...

Can anyone please suggest a flash for the Nikon ...

Accidentally broke my SB-600, that I had for many years. Am ready to replace it, but not sure with what.

I understand that there are already many non-Nikon flashes compatible, many more than when when I was buying SB-600 .. 10-11 years ago.

I would need something that is as robust in functionality and powerful.

Basic requirements are:

- power

- must work on camera, and off camera with commander and with just command mode (using internal flash as a trigger)

If you can also suggest on what to look at when choosing a flash (I think there can be many that fit my requirements), I would really appreciate that too.

You don't say which Nikon camera you have.

When I get a flash unit for an older camera, I usually try to get whatever was sold for it at the time when the camera was new. I hope that it will for that reason work well with the camera's special functions, etc.

Otherwise, any manual unit can be used as in the old days, GNs and all.

Not Nikon, but here is my Canon T50 with its original flash unit:

I use and recommend the Yongnuo YN968N, about $135 on Amazon. GN is 60, more powerful than SB-600. Has a built-in wireless transceiver so it can be either TTL slave or TTL master. A standalone wireless trigger can be purchased for about $40. The flash also supports Nikon Commander mode (optical TTL trigger) and High Speed Sync (HSS). Basically everything you need.

The similar Godox TT685N is also very popular and has the same features. It's usually a few dollars more than the Yongnuo, but at the moment Amazon has it for less.

Another vote for the SB-800. Their used price appears to be dropping lately and they give a whole stop more light than an SB-600.

One slight 'drawback'. The pull out diffuser does next to nothing. Testing the coverage on an expanse of white-painted wall showed that only the shape of coverage changes, and not the expanse, when the little built-in diffuser is dropped down. You need a clip on diffuser dome if you're going to use an SB-800 with a superwide lens.

If CLS and i-TTL are important to you, then 3rd party flashes may not be fully compatible, or give reliable TTL exposures. Having said that, I like my Nissin Di866. Its output measures slightly higher that an SB-800, and the quick-change battery holders are a nice feature.

There's also the Godox V860N. This features a lithium ion battery that gives extremely fast recycle times. CLS (AWL) works well, and i-TTL exposure is quite accurate.

One slight 'drawback'. The pull out diffuser does next to nothing. Testing the coverage on an expanse of white-painted wall showed that only the shape of coverage changes, and not the expanse, when the little built-in diffuser is dropped down. You need a clip on diffuser dome if you're going to use an SB-800 with a superwide lens.

The SB-800 came with a clip on diffuser. When I purchased mine from KEH, I got the package with the diffuser, color gels, SD800 extra battery holder, and case. The only thing missing was the manual; I downloaded that from Nikon.

Nikon SB-800 Speedlight Flash [GN125] {Bounce, Zoom}

Electronic flash is one item I would rather not buy used, because it is very difficult to tell whether a flash has been abused, e.g. overheating. Nikon introduced the SB-900 in mid 2008, and they discontinued the SB-800 a few months after. Therefore all SB-800 is over 10 years old. I happen to own two myself, and they are still good today, but I am the first-hand owner.

If you want a Nikon flash, the SB-910 is no longer available new. The SB-5000 is good but IMO too expensive at $600. There is the SB-700 with less power. The SB-700 can be a CLS master but the 5000 cannot. Both can be a CLS slave.

I have no experience with third-party flashes, but I own every Nikon model mentioned above.

"Electronic flash is one item I would rather not buy used,"

- You're too cautious Shun. I have over a dozen flashes bought used and they all have the same light output and performance as a new model.

I have 2 SB-800s, 5 SB-25s, 1 SB-28 and an SB-24, all bought used - and that's just my Nikon speedlight collection! They all work perfectly and output the exact same amount of light.

Nikon speedlights, especially the older ones, are extremely well made and stand up to a fair amount of abuse. So if the battery contacts are clean and the overall condition is unscratched, then you can be pretty sure the performance will be 'as new'.

If you never buy used flashguns, how are you in a position to judge their merit?

Another vote for the SB-800. Their used price appears to be dropping lately and they give a whole stop more light than an SB-600.

 

One slight 'drawback'. The pull out diffuser does next to nothing. Testing the coverage on an expanse of white-painted wall showed that only the shape of coverage changes, and not the expanse, when the little built-in diffuser is dropped down. You need a clip on diffuser dome if you're going to use an SB-800 with a superwide lens.

 

If CLS and i-TTL are important to you, then 3rd party flashes may not be fully compatible, or give reliable TTL exposures. Having said that, I like my Nissin Di866. Its output measures slightly higher that an SB-800, and the quick-change battery holders are a nice feature.

 

There's also the Godox V860N. This features a lithium ion battery that gives extremely fast recycle times. CLS (AWL) works well, and i-TTL exposure is quite accurate.

How does that Godox compare in power to the SB800?

I have an SB800 and echo satisfaction, although I don't have a basis for comparison. I would also add that the little white reflector card that is included with it works nicely when bouncing the flash off a ceiling (and it's always there since it stores in the flash).

"

If you never buy used flashguns, how are you in a position to judge their merit?

Just because one might have bought used flashes doesn't make you more qualified to discuss used flashes, since each flash may have a totally usage history. Your experience with one flash has absolutely nothing to do with another unit.

The SB-800 was Nikon's very first iTTL/CLS flash, introduced back in 2003 along with the D2H, which was the first Nikon DSLR that uses iTTL. While the SB-800 works well, along with the SB-600 the OP has, those two flashes have a very convoluted menu system that makes them difficult to use. In 2008 Nikon replaced the SB-800 with the SB-900. After that, Nikon has introduced the SB-910 and more recently the SB-5000, which also has radio trigger, plus the smaller SB-700. All of those flashes introduced from 2008 and later have a much clearer menu system.

In other words, the SB-800 was in production from 2003 to 2008 so that every unit available is somewhere between 10 to 15 years old. I bought two in 2005. One feature Nikon added to the SB-900 in 2008 was overheat detection with automatic shut off, which generated a lot of negative publicity. I got into that situation once during an important shoot, and my SB-900 was simply disabled for like 15, 20 minutes or so until it cooled off. Inside the latest SB-5000, Nikon adds a little fan, which can switch on for a short while after each flash to cool off the bulb. Since the SB-800, 900, 910, and 5000 all have an external power connection so that one can use a high-power external battery for rapid recycle, all of those units are prone to professional abuse and over-heating, thus shortening the bulb life. The problem is that such abuse is all internal, as you cannot judge it by the outside appearance of the flash.

Essentially every flash unit's usage history is different. For a unit that is 10 to 15 years old, there can be a very long usage history. Unless you know the seller and are confident about its history, you are taking a chance. I personally don't like buying used flashes. What the OP and each individual wants to do is up to that person to decide. I am merely presenting my reasons here for others to consider. Naturally some will agree with me and some will not.

Since I mentioned the SB-900 and 910, I should point out that those flashes are much larger than the SB-800. When you put one on the hot shoe, it will make your set up very top heavy, especially if you have a smaller camera body. Nikon has made the SB-5000 smaller. The SB-5000 cannot be a CLS master; other than that and the $600 price tag, it is probably the best one to have. IMO TTL compatibility with film SLR is a moot point by now for most people.

Since the OP was using an SB-600, I wonder an SB-700 would be a good replacement, but it is indeed less powerful than any one of those with a higher model number mentioned above.

"How does that Godox compare in power to the SB800?"

- It measures the same with a flashmeter, and in practical use I don't notice any difference.

I'm pretty impressed with the performance of my Godox V860s, although I'd rate their build quality a tiny notch below that of an SB-800. They're physically bigger though.

Godox also have a dedicated radio trigger kit available - manual only, not TTL - which lets you set the power of individual flashes from the transmitter on the camera. Really useful when the flash is hidden in a softbox, or similarly difficult to reach. And being radio, it doesn't suffer from the unreliability of AWL.

I also have a YongNuo 560 iii. The output of which measures 1/3rd stop less than the SB-800 at a similar 'zoom' setting. This might just be down to a slightly different coverage angle. Again, the build quality seems pretty good and it's amazing value for money if you want a simple manual-only flash. Has a built-in radio transceiver compatible with the YN RF-602 or 603.

BTW. The pull-out bounce card is just meant to give an eye catchlight when bouncing the flash. It's not meant to add to the bounce effect or soften the light.

"Just because one might have bought used flashes doesn't make you more qualified to discuss used flashes,..."

- Oh I think it very much does.

I now have a collection of flashes dating back over at least 40 years. Some bought new and the majority bought used. They all perform the same as new. No sign of any drop in light output between old and new, used or first-hand. Makes represented are Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Metz, Osram/Cullman and Sunpak.

As a generalisation, if they work at all, they work like new. Fault to be most avoided is any sign of battery leakage. Once corroded, battery contacts become very unreliable, but this is easy to check for visually.

I have old speedlights that look as if they've been kicked from location to location, that still deliver as much light as a pristine version.

As a generalisation, if they work at all, they work like new..

That is not the case at all. Just like everything else, a flash tube has a finite life and so is the other electronics inside a flash You can seriously shorten it by making a lot of quick successive flashes with an external power supply to reduce the flash recycle time. Heat will build up and damage the electronics.

Here is an image of all the Nikon flashes mentioned on this thread side by side. The size difference should be quite clear.

There are definitely plenty of trade offs. Since the OP mentioned using the pop-up flash as the commander, I think it is safe to assume he is not talking about film SLRs or the latest DSLR that can use radio trigger, as none of the D5, D500, and D850 has a pop-up flash.

All 6 flashes here can be a CLS slave, and only the outer two, the SB-600 and SB-5000, cannot be the CLS master.

1. The SB-600 and SD-800 are the oldest two; they have a menu system that is hard to navigate. I happen to have no problem with the SB-800 since I have used it over and over, but I can see most people have difficulty with it.
   
2. The SB-900 and 910 are big, and the 900 has more overheat issues. When I travel, I prefer to take the SB-800 for its smaller size.
   
3. SB-700: unlike the 600, the 700 can be a CLS master. I like it a lot, but it is not as powerful as the 4 models to its right in the image. It is actually slightly bigger than the SB-800.
   
4. SB-5000: both radio trigger and CLS compatible, but it cannot be a CLS master. Has a built-in fan to cool its flash tube, but expensive. Actually most Nikon flashes are expensive when new.
   

Correction: the SB-5000 can be a CLS/optical master as well.

One thing to keep in mind is that Nikon discontinued the SB-800 almost 10 years ago. Therefore availability of parts can be an issue already or may soon become an issue should you need to replace the flash tube, for example.

As I said, there are various trade offs and also third-party options. Concerning buying used, it depends on price and your tolerance of risks. Again, I am only providing facts and some of my opinions. My opinions may or may not apply to your case.

Let me add to the chorus of folks saying that I've bought a BUNCH of used flashes and the only issues I've ever had were related to battery corrosion.

I have a bag full of Vivitar 283s, along with a bunch of Canons, Nikons, Metz, and probably a few other brands. I KNOW that my Canon 300TL(dedicated flash for the T90) was used with an external pack as it has a hole in the battery door to accommodate it.

To be fair, the Metz "potato mashers" have fans in them and I think that my newest one(75 mz-5) has auto-shut off as well. Still, though, none of my shoe-mounts have given me issues. That includes an SB-800 and two SB-600s.

One thing to keep in mind is that Nikon discontinued the SB-800 almost 10 years ago. Therefore availability of parts can be an issue already or may soon become an issue should you need to replace the flash tube, for example.

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Just wondering.. i have never (starting 1978) have had parts or a flash-tube in a camera mounted flash replaced, so would that be an isseu when buying a cheap used flash often ?

Apart from that i secon either to have a used Nikon flash ( SB800, Sb700 etc.) or a new yongnuo like the YN685 ( or multiple of them) which works with CLS, but also radio triggered with one of the Yongnuo radio triggers , offering best of both worlds ...

Not to make too fine a point about it, but those examples you guys are referring to from the film era 2, 3 decades ago are not very relevant in this discussion. For example, the Canon T90 Ben mentioned is a film SLR. During the film era, we learned that every time you pressed on the shutter release, there was film and processing cost, regardless of whether you actually made a print or not; if you did, the cost would be even higher. Pretty much all of us tried to conserve film, hence people didn't use/abuse flashes as much.

It is very different today since digital is "free," i.e. once you pay for the camera, the incremental cost for each additional capture is minimal. Hence everybody shoots a lot more, pros and amateurs alike, and pros pushes flashes much harder.

Now, if everybody is claiming that they have absolutely no problems with used flashes, including SB-800, maybe I am too careful. Again, that is me; your mileage may vary.

Just wondering.. i have never (starting 1978) have had parts or a flash-tube in a camera mounted flash replaced, so would that be an isseu when buying a cheap used flash often ?

Well, I bought my first electronic flash even before 1978, and I too have never need to replace a flash tube. But again, the situation during the film era was quite different, and I am mostly an amateur. For the most part I don't shoot weddings, events, and sports professionally such that my flash usage is not that heavy. Finally, for an amateur, I have quite a few dedicated Nikon flashes (as shown above; I captured that image today for this thread) and I spread my usage around so that no one flash gets overused.

Whether there is any need to replace a flash tube highly depends on its usage history. If a used flash was previously owned by a wedding or news photographer who used it professionally, the odds are against you. In that sense you are probably better off buying a used flash from an amateur who doesn't use it much.

Similarly, people tend to recommend not to buy used AF-I lenses now and prefer AF-S lenses, since AF-I was discontinued in 1996 and those motor parts have not been available for years. On the other hand, I bought my first AF-S lens in 1998 and so far have never had the need to replace any AF-S motor.

The flip side is that AF-I lenses are very cheap in the used market. Usually things are cheap for a reason. Whether a used SB-800 is a bargain or something to avoid is up to each individual to decide.

Not to make too fine a point about it, but those examples you guys are referring to from the film era 2, 3 decades ago are not very relevant in this discussion. For example, the Canon T90 Ben mentioned is a film SLR. During the film era, we learned that every time you pressed on the shutter release, there was film and processing cost, regardless of whether you actually made a print or not; if you did, the cost would be even higher. Pretty much all of us tried to conserve film, hence people didn't use/abuse flashes as much.

The film vs. digital thing IS a fair enough point, but again I'll go back to the fact that I've had zero issues with the handful of "digital era" flashes I've owned.

The SB-600s and SB-800 are the most prominent examples, but in my Canon days I bought my 580EX(roughly comparable to an SB-800) used and had zero issues with it.

The Metz 75 mz-5 I mentioned is also advertised as a "digital" flash, and with the Nikon module(which I have) will do iTTL. There again, though, it has a fan and thermal cut-off.

My Normans(or at least the heads I use most often) do have fans, although they're a bit weird in that they're tied to the brightness of the modeling light and not to anything going on in the flash tube. I bought my first bunch of them, which are the main ones I use, from a friend of the original owner(he was helping liquidate the estate). The original owner was a professional, but the guy I bought them from talked about doing photo shoots where they'd run a single head at 2000 W-S and dump it sometimes multiple times on one frame. Granted I don't know the service history on the flash tubes, but I do know that the lights came with a BUNCH of spare modeling lights and no spare flash tubes.

Also, to be fair to those if you blow a flash tube and have a spare on hand, the only thing that would extend your downtime is waiting for things to cool down enough to handle. Actually swapping the tubes is a 30 second job, and I have 3 or 4 new in box ones that came in another lot of stuff I bought. That's a totally different situation than a shoe mount flash, though, as the tubes are DESIGNED to be user serviceable, and are a stock item both directly from Norman and at major retailers like B&H.

"That is not the case at all. Just like everything else, a flash tube has a finite life and so is the other electronics inside a flash You can seriously shorten it by making a lot of quick successive flashes with an external power supply to reduce the flash recycle time. Heat will build up and damage the electronics."

- Evidence for that assertion, please.

The main issue with overheat is that the plastic fresnel can distort or melt. An easily spotted fault.

The secondary effect is that batteries can get hot to the point of damaging the case or causing leakage. If you look at the overheat protection in speedlights, the sensors are positioned adjacent to the battery compartment and/or in the flash-head near to the tube. Excessive dissipation in the inverter circuit should be designed out in all but the cheapest models.

"That is not the case at all. Just like everything else, a flash tube has a finite life and so is the other electronics inside a flash You can seriously shorten it by making a lot of quick successive flashes with an external power supply to reduce the flash recycle time. Heat will build up and damage the electronics."

 

- Evidence for that assertion, please.

 

The main issue with overheat is that the plastic fresnel can distort or melt. An easily spotted fault.

The secondary effect is that batteries can get hot to the point of damaging the case or causing leakage. If you look at the overheat protection in speedlights, the sensors are positioned adjacent to the battery compartment and/or in the flash-head near to the tube. Excessive dissipation in the inverter circuit should be designed out in all but the cheapest models.

I actually think the overheating problem of the Nikon flashes (SB-800, SB-900 etc...) is the overheating of the inverter circuit rather than the flash tube.

- Evidence for that assertion, please.

As a counter point that's probably cursorily related, I have a xenon strobe automotive timing light that's probably 40 years old. I don't use it that often, but I bought it from a retired mechanic who probably used it multiple times every day.

The light in those is pretty anemic compared to a camera flash, but when it's used it makes a LOT of flashes in succession. 800rpms is 400 times a minute(any given spark plug fires a single time on every other complete rotation, and the light flashes every time the plug it's connected to sparks), and 3000 rpms is 1500 times a minute. It would not be uncommon for it to spend a fair bit of time on over the course of 10-15 minutes. The light is not cooled, and under the hood is not exactly the most welcoming of work environments.

As a different situation, a lot of the UV-Visible instruments I maintain at work as part of my day job use a pulsed xenon lamp as the source(for many purposes it's replaced the classic deuterium arc/tungsten halogen combo-it does have its disadvantages and higher end instruments still often still use tungsten/deuterium particularly for the latter's much more intense UV output, but the xenon saves having to switch). It's not uncommon for one of these lamps to be in continuous operation for several days at a time. They are actively cooled, but still run A LOT. I had to replace the lamp on our Cary 50 last year, but it's about 15 years old and again often runs for a few days at a time. The new lamp was slightly higher in output than the old one(I can directly measure that by looking at the signal from the PMT), but not appreciably so-basically it just died one day without any warning. It wouldn't surprise me if that lamp had made a million or more flashes in 15 years.

"Not to make too fine a point about it, but those examples you guys are referring to from the film era 2, 3 decades ago are not very relevant in this discussion."

- A pulse of light is a pulse of light, and doesn't care if it's final destination is a strip of film or a digital sensor. My DSLR sensors don't know whether I'm using a 30 year old SB-24, a 40 year old Mecablitz CT-45 (no fan cooling BTW) or a Godox V860 that I bought 18 months ago. And to be truthful I couldn't tell from just looking at the image either.

I-TTL and AWL? Unreliable and unnecessary IME. Auto aperture mode works just as well for on-camera flash, and if you're going to the trouble of setting up off-camera flash, then a flashmeter, radio triggers and manual control of the flash add little to the setup time, and add much to reliability.