cheaper medium format

I really want to experiment with medium format but cannot afford

anything over 600.00 - three kids in college! Any suggestions??

Your options:

(1.) rent for a day or two to experiment, see if you like it.

(2.) buy a twin-lens reflex or the like

(3.) buy a used Hasselblad - will be significantly more than $600, but you can expect to get most of your investment back when you sell it.

 

Either way, your biggest expense will be film, processing and enlargments - unless you enlarge at least 11x14 you are not going to see much difference...

I second the twin lens reflex idea. when I first started medium format I used a Yashicamat. If I used it on a tripod and used a lens shade and a cable release I could make 20 x 24 enlargements that you could not tell from a hasselblad.

Whatever you do, make sure you buy so that you can try it out first and if something is wrong you can bring it back.

Kevin

I too think an old Rollei or other servicable twin lens reflex camera is not a bad idea. I'd have inherited a nice one myself except as kids one of my brothers tossed ours into a pool. :(

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You didn't mention any type of usage, so I'll add to the list that may appeal if very cheap or very mobile are on your criteria list - older medium format ranger finders such as a Super Ikonta with Zeiss optics can be found for reasonable amounts - I paid under 100$ Canadian in a flea market once for one and it is extremely serviceable. Many of these post-war cameras are still around and out there and I don't think you have to pay collector prices if you are willing to look around.

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My Ikonta planted the MF bug in me many years ago. I have a 6x6 version and that format has been a favorite ever since for me.

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Another nice thing about them - they are a folding camera, quite amazingly portable really. I did a lot of backpacking with mine. And people are quite interested in the retro look of a small folding camera.

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Did a little quick searching on the web:

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Repair: <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000ldt">http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000ldt</a>

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Listing of different models: <a href="http://www.wctatel.net/web/crye/z-i120.htm">http://www.wctatel.net/web/crye/z-i120.htm</a>

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Parts n stuff (I have no knowledge of this firm) <a href="http://www.goldenapple.com/wwr/">http://www.goldenapple.com/wwr/</a>

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I'm sure with more than a couple of minutes you will find many resources out there if interested.

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One last comment - if you are on a budget it might be wise to think about film and processing costs. If you are interested in B&W and able to do your own darkroom work, then I think a cheap range finder is not a bad way to go; there will be ample room in the budget left for experimentation. If you are going to have to depend on labs to do your processing, I can see costs being an issue.

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PS: Maybe hitting a few flea markets might not be a bad idea anyway, regardless of camera type or model if you intend to delve into machines from days gone by.

Jill,

 

Yes - look at the TLR's... but, just in case you might like what you try... be sure to check out the Mamiya C220's or C330's. They have interchangeable lenses that are top notch and they are a bellows system which allows some very nice close up shots. They're affordable and lots of equipment is available.

 

Now... if you want to go the route of interchangeable backs... the Hasselblad is an excellant choice (the Mamiya's do not have interchangeable backs.) However, the Bronica S series cameras do. I wouldn't seriously look into anything less than an S2A. These have lots of different Nikkor and Zenzanon lenses available - and other goodies too.

 

A Mamiya (c220) with a standard lense in very nice shape should go for about $300. A C330... bit more... around $425. A Bronica S2A with a standard lens, back, WLF... about $425 in good condition.

 

There are lots of good ideas for mf entry... I have all three of these cameras plus more... and I enjoy each of them thoroughly. I just wish I knew now what I didn't then!

 

Good luck!

 

Gr

All good suggestions above.

 

I'll add a recommendation for the Bronica S2A, if you're interested in a modular system with interchangeable lenses, backs, finders and such. You should be able to put together a basic system for about $450-550, and you can expand it in the future quite inexpensively.

 

For all the details and more, go to:

 

http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronica.html

All of the above are good. I would add that you can purchase most of the above mentioned items on ebay. Try it for a few rolls, and if you don't like it, you could sell it for about what you paid for it. You may get lucky and make a few bucks in the deal. There is also some risk. You obviously can't inspect the item, so if you go this route, get a return option.

Another option is a Kiev 60 (maybe some reworked design) with east German Zeiss optics. Your budget should allow for a body with TTL-prism finder, waist level finder, 3 lenses and lots of film.

 

Ulrik

I'd also swing more toward a modular system, if you do enjoy the format then youd certainly want to expand your system somewhat to make it more adaptable to your interests.

 

I started out with a basic Bronica ETRSi system, decided that yes it was worth the extra weight and sacrifice and have slowly built up a decent system via e-bay (prisms, grips and lenses)

 

But to let out a secret (now that I have everything I need) the cheapest place I have found ANYWHERE for used Bronica equipment ... is New Zealand (I have no idea why !) check out http://www.progear.co.nz/html/catalogueview.php and go to their used listings, they currently have a complete SQAi system for $1500nz which is $620.00US or a complete ETRSi with PE lenses, 120 back, 35mm back, AE111 prism for $2500nz or $1030.00us ... you'd be hard pushed to equal those prices !!!

 

Just dont tell anyone ...

 

Oops !!

Very inexpensive and great quality-Minolta Autochord. I recently purchased one for $100.00. I also have a Kiev 60 system that I am about to sell for approx. $500.00, body ,2 finders, extension tubes, 50mm, 80mm, 120mm and 180mm lenses. These are great, cheap ways into medium format.

The Minolta Autocord may be the best quality-for-money available in medium format. I have the following:

 

Pentacon Six: decent SLR if in good shape, about $350 with lens.

 

Autocord: excellent, underpriced TLR, better than Yashicas, about $150.

 

Ciroflex: Super cheap, decent lens, good experimenter's TLR: under $50.

 

Zenobia: Pocketable 645 folder, great lens, about $50.

 

Agfa Isolette III: Uncoupled RF 6x6 folder, mediocre lens, about $50.

 

I don't have a Kowa Six, but you can pick up a good one within your budget and they're good performers.

 

rick :)=

A few cautions:

 

Autocords are very old cameras. The focusing has a tendency to get stiff with age.

 

Bronica S2's have nylon gears that wear out easily.

 

Stay away from Russian cameras!

 

The Tessar lenses on the Yashica Mat TLR's are not great wide open. And for some reason the prices on eBay and such are very inflated.

 

Mamaya TLR's are fine, unless you plan on shooting closeups. Prices are deflated. A good bet for landscapes. And you could get a whole system for $600!

 

Old Rollei's and Rolleicords have Sunchro-Compur shutters that really like to be exercised. Check shutter throughly before buying. Personally, I think of these cameras as collectibles rather than shooters.

 

Without knowing what you plan on shooting, I can only give some very general suggestions. But a Bronica ETRs is a very fine camera for the money. And you can probably find a somewhat beat up Pentax 6x7 for somewhere around your budget.

 

http://www.ravenvision.com/peterhughes.htm

I think all of the above are reasonable suggestions.

I would, however, not advise a Kiev - unless you buy a reworked one from KievUSA in Greenwich, CT (~ $500), you will likely end up with a lot of cheap equipment that does not work (light leaks, sticking shutters, sticking diaphragm blades, wobbly lenses, frame overlaps and a host of others that will turn you off MF in a hurry ...)

I do own and occasionally use a reworked Kiev from the above store, and it works fine - they do a good job - at a price. I have also seen non-reworked Kievs - straight from the factory - and calling them a piece of junk is actually a compliment.

 

I think the other alternatives sound better.

 

One further alternative is to look for a Graflex Century (6x9) camera. The quality is generally very good, lenses can be found for little money and best of all, you can find a variety of used 0backs (6x6, 6x7, 6x9) for about $50-100 apiece.

Focusing is via Kalart Rangefinder (will likely have to be adjusted) and / or you can use the camera as a MF View camera. This means you get to put a darkcloth over your head, use a focusing loupe and lots of other fun stuff ...

 

If you want to go really wild, the Graflex even has limited tilt & shift to allow perspective and DoF corrections.

 

Can be found from $150 (likely w/o lens) to ~350 on EBay, or in a number of 2nd hand stores. Make sure when you buy that ground glass and at least 1 rollfilm back is included.

 

I also own one of these and it delivers absolutely stunning pictures. You get multiformat, interchangeable backs (the other great attraction of MF in my opinion) and view camera capability, all rolled into one compact foldable package.

 

good luck

MB

I was in your situation several months ago. I wanted to try medium format, but as I have far too many hobbies, my wife would have killed me if I spent $600 on another camera. I did what many have suggested here - try ebay. I picked up a YashicaMat EM for $65 plus s&h. It has the same lenses as the highly demanded and overpriced YashicaMat-G, and functions largely the same. Later, you shouldn't have trouble selling the camera if you decide you don't like mediumn format. I would stay away from cameras that take 127 film like the Yashica-44. 120 or 120/220 capability is the way to go. Keep in mind that with any of these older cameras the meters don't work or are not accurate, so you'll either need a handheld meter or use your slr as a meter.

 

Here's a link to a page with a wealth of information about medium format cameras. I found it particularly useful and believe the authors deserve some thanks.

http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/cameras.html

 

Good luck.

There are a couple of good 60's rangefinder systems not mentioned - the Koni Omega and the Mamiya Universal/Press.

 

I love my Press system; it's cheap because it's a pain to use (no meter, no idiot-proofing), not because of any fault in the quality - the optics range from decent to awesome, and if you drop it on your foot you'll break your foot, not the camera.

 

If you do get more money - the Mamiya gives you room to grow you don't have with a Yashicamat or Autocord. If you get the right body (the Super 23 or Press Deluxe) all you have to do is spend $50 on a ground glass and voila! you have a view camera with tilts.

 

The only caveat: the 90/3.5 and 100/3.5 that came as the standard lenses are, while the equal of the lenses on Yashicamats/Autocords, the weakest lenses in the system. The 150 and 65 are better and in the $200 range, and the 100/2.8, 75/5.6 and 50/6.3 are incredible lenses in the $400 range. 50mm on 6 x 9 is about the same angle of view as 43mm on 6 x 7 (the killer wideangle on the Mamiya 7) and it's $1600 cheaper!

<i>Bronica S2's have nylon gears that wear out easily. </i><p>

 

Just one note on early Bronicas: the models prior to the S2A, like the S2, S, D, and C have brass gears that wear out easily, which is why they are not so highly recommended. The S2A upgraded the gears to steel and redesigned the film/shutter winding mechanism to prevent stripping.

A used Mamiya 645 w/80mm lens runs in the $500 neighborhood.This is a modular machine,accesories are cheap & readily available.The most important thing is that Mamiya still repairs & supports these.good luck finding 1950's parts for a TLR. Twin lens cameras are capable of excellant results,but the truth is they are ancient monstrosities.In their day they were excellant cameras,but advantages of a SLR system make these obsolete.

One more that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the Fuji 690II ("Texas Leica"), which should fall exactly in the $600 range. Sharp, fast lens, huge neg, eye-level viewing, SLR-like handling and winding, light weight, anvil toughness. No light meter, but then many of the above-mentioned cameras don't have meters either (you can take light readings with a 35mm camera). No, it's not modular, but you can sell it and get your money back or, if you want a modular system, do what other Fuji 690 owners do: hang on to it and use it as a complement to a MF SLR system.

In general, TLR's get my vote for casual medium format-ing. I know it shouldn't matter, but they're beautiful pieces of industrial design, very cool and funky, and great fun to carry and shoot. People want their picture taken when they see it!

 

I strongly second the Minolta Autocord, but also second the earlier warning about the focus mechanism. Make sure it's not stiff. Maybe the best strategy for any classic is to buy a good example w/sticky slow speeds: you should get a bargain price. Then, plan on spending another $100.00 for a CLA.

 

Based on raves by Nolan Woodbury and others, I just picked up an Autocord. I already have a Yashica Mat 124G. The Autocord is built like a tank, and it's ergonomics, IMHO, are the best of any TLR. Hold and focus w/left hand, wind and fire w/right. It also has the brightest screen of any of the TLRs. I think my Mat may have a slightly sharper lens, but it sure feels cheap next to the Cord. On the other hand, the Mat has a decent CDS light meter; mine's is dead accurate.

 

Whatever TLR you get, use a tripod when possible, be sure to get and use a lens hood, and a cable release (or the self timer! Love the sound of the timer!).

 

Someone above lamented the inflated prices. Considering the plastic junk being sold today, $150.00-300.00 seems like a bargain to me. And unlike modern junk, you can shoot it for a year or two, then sell it and make money.

 

Doug

<p>Although you've been previously warned to avoid the Russian cameras,

 

<p>I have had no trouble with my (reworked!) Kiev 60 purchased through <a href="http://www.kievcamera.com">Kiev Camera</a>. I believe it was around $350 (Kiev 60TTL kit, flocked body, 80mm f2.8). With your leftover budget, buy a good hand held light meter. (Minolta IVf) The internal meter works (as does metering with a 35mm SLR), but I find that a handheld incident meter is most convenient for what I shoot (flowers and landscapes).

 

<p>This should be a fine "experimenting" camera if you can't find a $100 TLR that takes 120 film.

Jill,

 

It will be much more fun if you start out with a minimal investment.

The twin lens reflex idea is on the right track. I would invite you to find out about folding cameras as mentioned above. IMHO the Voigtlander Perkeo II with a color skopar lens is the best engineered, smallest, and most elegant 6x6 camera made. Check one on Ebay. It will cost you less than $200. It will fit in your pants pocket or purse. The optics of the color skopar lens is an unheralded wonder. Do I sound like I am in love with this camera? You will be talking like this when you have one. Yes, it is very manual in its film winding advancement, focusing, and unmetered functions. But with an old $25 GE light meter you're set to start in MF and you'll never feel guilty about your decision once.

 

Good Luck,

Greg

Check out the Segulls from China, but go with the top one (I think its the 107) They seem to be made from the dies of the Yashica 124. You should be able to get one for about $250 new. That way if you buy one, shoot with it to see if you like the quality of the lens and camera and if not take it back. Granted its not a Bronica, but hey you could give to one of the college kids -- who WILL take photography because mom does it -- and WILL need a medium format camera (eventually).

I'll second the vote for the Fuji 670 family of cameras. I made the choice to get a GW670III because it doesn't allow me to get lens-lust, it has a non-interchangable lens. That saves me money, and I like being forced to MAKE the picture, not zoom into a picture. My $0.02

Interesting thread for myself, even tho I own a few different MF cameras. What I have found is that when picking a camera understand that many don't have meters which necessitates a handheld. This will add to your expense. Even if they can take a meter as in a MF SLR, understand that a metering prism may not come with the camera and that the type of metering will be different than what you may be use to when shooting 35mm. Also some cameras are quite heavy, and depending on your shooting style, and how much you carry it, you may want to know what your getting into; Ask about weight, and then carry the same amount around as in a dumbbell weight. You'll fast find out what it takes to carry it, and then think about adding lenses if it will take any. Don't expect to chase the young ones around untill you get a real feel for the camera, and even then your still better off with a 35mm. I find that older folders may only have guess focusing instead of rangefinding, which even itself can be seriously deteriorated, and very unusable in darker light. And don't buy anything unless it takes 120 film; Many older folders take 620 and you may not want to get into rewinding.

 

I think Davids suggestion of a Bronica S2A holds more merit. I personally own a few folders and although I enjoy them, they are a different beast. More pocketable than an SLR but more limited because of metering, noninterchangeable lenses and sometimes none or bad rangefinding and not very good for closeups. They can be fun, but I find that I almost never take them out anymore. Besides the only ones that appeal to me now are the 6x9's which shoot slower.

 

As you didn't say anything about your favorite subjects to shoot, I'm going to suspect that with three children, and probably not a lot of time to get out and enjoy shooting alone, you'll probably be snapping away in family situations or maybe on vacation. MF is a different beast than 35mm, so it might be to your advantage to borrow or rent something and give it a chance before you invest money, which will always turn into more money. This might be from adding a light for flash shots. MF is a real winner here for the ability to spend large amounts of money and maybe not have TTL flash in the end. I have been finding that it's uses for me at present don't necessairly have an advantage over 35mm or LF systems for what I like to do. And larger negs don't mean diddly if your only enlarging to 8x10. Yea you'd get more detail, but the average person probably wouldn't even notice it; The composition usually wins out here. MF has it uses, and considerable advantages when it's required, but I find it best when I have a specific use for it that smaller or larger formats won't cover. Don't let me put you off, but do think about your real needs and not what you think of it romantically because of it's increased negative size.

In response to Marcus' post above, I don't think the Seagull was made from the same dies as the Yashica. Story goes that Yashica scrapped its TLR's because the dies were wearing out, and they were getting too many unusable parts. Having handled a Seagull recently, it's a bit of a change from a Yashica. the waistlevel cover folds differently, and the aperture time settings are way different.

 

As for the original post, I would recommend getting a used Yashica Mat and trying it out for a bit. I keep hearing stories about Seagull's dying after a year...

 

*daniel