Nikon f2 TTL flash

Hey, I want to buy Nikon F2 and I was wondering if I could use the Nikon SB-17 TTL function on it?

Thank you

Just to elaborate a bit-this is probably an overly simplified explanation, but it's how I understand it.

TTL flash(traditional TTL) is based on light reflecting off the film. Basically, cameras equipped to do it have a photocell in the bottom of the mirror box that's pointed at the film. With Nikon, most of the logic for this is in the Speedlight itself, but basically the light picked up by this photocell communicated to the speedlight, and when it judges that there is enough exposure based on the film speed, it quenches the flash output. Traditional "automatic" flash actually uses the same concept, but with a photocell outside the camera.

Nikon TTL worked effectively the same way from the time it came along(I think the F3 in 1980, as I'm drawing a blank as to what would have had it before that) until the D1 was introduced in 1999. Digital sensors are too reflective to work with traditional TTL(although I've been told that Fuji pulled it off with either the S1 or S2-I haven't bothered to experiment and see even though I have both of those cameras) so the replacement came in the form of a system called D-TTL where the camera makes a measured pre-flash and then bases the flash exposure off the reflection from the shutter. Most folks did not/do not consider D-TTL a satisfactory system, and it was replaced in the D2 series by the much improved and still used i-TTL system(the F6 can also do iTTL). This system still uses pre-flashes, but they are shorter and the overall operation is more consistent than TTL.

In any case, Nikon's backward compatibility continues to be good. TTL flash on the F3 is best enjoyed with an SB-16, which attaches directly to the rewind crank. With that said, for $150 one can buy an AS-17 and get full TTL from something like a new SB-600 or relatively recent SB-800. Those same flashes also work perfectly with cameras like the FE2 and FA.

To get around to it, though, at the end of the day there's no way or no how to get TTL flash on an F2 just because it doesn't have the film plane photocell. I'm not familiar with the SB-17, but I'd guess it PROBABLY has an "auto" mode on it. That will work fine on the F2 with any of the readily available hotshoe adapters-you will just need to manually set the film speed on the flash and make sure the set apertures match the the camera and flash.

I think the F3 in 1980, as I'm drawing a blank as to what would have had it before that

That is correct. The next one was the FG.

SB-17, but I'd guess it PROBABLY has an "auto" mode on it

It does. The SB-17 is basically an SB-15 with the special foot to attach to the F3 (just like the SB-16).

As explained above, the F2 camera has no facility for TTL flash. However IME Auto Aperture mode on Nikon's speedlights is just as reliable, if not more so.

Auto Aperture mode uses a small light-sensor cell on the flash head. This detects the amount of light reflected back from the subject and quenches the flash when sufficient exposure has been delivered. It works like a real-time reflective flash-meter.

AA mode simply requires that you set the same ISO and aperture on the flash as on the camera - Bingo!

It even works for bounce and off-camera flash provided you ensure the detector cell is pointed at the subject.

For fill flash, you need to fool the speedlight into delivering less light than ambient, and to achieve this you can either set the ISO 4 times higher, or set the aperture two stops lower (wider) on the flash than on the camera. Obviously your shutter speed needs to remain at 'X' and the aperture at whatever's needed for the ambient exposure to be correct.

BTW, a speedlight with a swivel and tilt head to allow bounce lighting is a better choice. Head-on flash is very unflattering lighting, except when used as a subtle fill.

"Digital sensors are too reflective to work with traditional TTL"

- A convenient lie to fudge the fact that there was simply no room left in the mirror box after the AF sensor had been moved there. The consistent reflection of a digital sensor would be much more reliable than the variable reflectivity of different film types.

FWIW, I find AA flash mode far more reliable than Nikon's over-engineered i-TTL system.

For years, I used a Vivitar 283 in "AA" mode with slide film (& B+W), same 283 on any body Nikon or otherwise, with good results. From what I have seen using a SB-900 on a D810, I would agree with RJ that results are not that different, and I could not say which is better or worse.

The sensor for the 283 could be removed, put on a cable and mounted on the camera hot shoe, the flash could then be pointed anywhere. There are plenty of other systems with similar capabilities. Caution; With the 283, the later models had a lower flash trigger voltage that was more compatible with electronic cameras, not sure what the change over serial number is from earlier models with higher trigger voltage that might be more prone to damage camera electronics.

Checking the MIR site, the SB-17 was intended for use with the F3 and does not have a conventional foot. I "think" the mounting foot is the same on an F2, but I am not as sure about the firing contact. My guess is that it would fit on a F2 and fire, probably with AA mode capability from a sensor in the flash.

Checking the MIR site, the SB-17 was intended for use with the F3 and does not have a conventional foot. I "think" the mounting foot is the same on an F2, but I am not as sure about the firing contact. My guess is that it would fit on a F2 and fire, probably with AA mode capability from a sensor in the flash.

I'm at work and don't have my F3 with me(I do, conveniently enough, have an F2) but a quick look at pictures of the F3 on Google suggests to me that it will NOT work.

On the F2(and F) one large contact sits BEHIND the rewind crank. If you put an ISO standard hotshoe on an F or F2, it basically connects the center contact to this contact and then connects the "rails" to the ones beside the rewind crank.

The F3 uses three contacts to the FRONT of the shoe, and there are none behind it. I think one of these contacts is the "fire" contact(center pin if you fit a hot shoe) and the other two are for TTL. The space that would be occupied by the "fire" contact on an F2 instead has the rewind lock.

It's been a while since I've used a flash on an F3, but I have a couple of hot shoes and an SB-16. On an F or F2, you slide on the shoe(either an ISO standard shoe or one of the specialty ones, like the one I have that's meant to work with bulb flashes) from the REAR of the camera. BTW, F and F2 shoes are interchangeable. On the F3, you slide them on from the FRONT of the camera. This messed me up more than once since I was in the habit of going from the rear, and it also seems natural to anyone who has used a conventional shoe-mount flash. I'll also had all of my F3 flash stuff-both shoes and the SB16-have a locking ring so that when mounted, the crank is completely surrounded. The only F/F2 shoe I have with this arrangement is an aftermarket one. The "official" (gray plastic) NIkon ones just rely on friction to stay in place.

All the AUTO mode of a Nikon flash needs is a center and ground contact. The sensor is located in the flash.

There is an adapter which connects a a standard flash shoe to the F3. I don't know it has TTL capability.

There is an adapter which connects a a standard flash shoe to the F3. I don't know it has TTL capability.

The standard adapter(I have one) is only an ISO standard hotshoe with center and rails to complete the contact.

The frighteningly expensive AS-17(I don't have one) gives full TTL capabilities with any Nikon flash that has a hot shoe and is able to do so. I think it's a fairly new product-my impression was that "back in the day" Nikon wanted you to use a flash that would fit directly on the F3 and eliminate shoe from the circuit. The SB-16 could be fitted with either a TTL hotshoe or the F3 specific one, and most I see for sale have the F3 fitting. That seems to be true of a lot of other flashes from the F3 era, and AFAIK all of them did have interchangeable shoes. Fortunately, my SB-22(or is it SB-24?) ring light came with a more conventional TTL hot shoe that will work on any TTL-capable Nikon with a hot shoe, although the F3 shoe was an option.

BTW, Vivitar made a TTL capable shoe for the F3, but it requires TTL-capable Vivitar flashes(I don't know what models) and won't work with TTL on Nikon units. It can function as an ISO hotshoe, though, so is useful in that capacity and usually less expensive on Ebay than the "real" Nikon piece.

AS-5 is the adapter to use an F3-dedicated flash on a Nikon F/F2.

AS-3 would accomplish the reverse - F2-dedicated flash on an F3.

I'm at work and don't have my F3 with me(I do, conveniently enough, have an F2) but a quick look at pictures of the F3 on Google suggests to me that it will NOT work.

 

On the F2(and F) one large contact sits BEHIND the rewind crank. If you put an ISO standard hotshoe on an F or F2, it basically connects the center contact to this contact and then connects the "rails" to the ones beside the rewind crank.

 

The F3 uses three contacts to the FRONT of the shoe, and there are none behind it. I think one of these contacts is the "fire" contact(center pin if you fit a hot shoe) and the other two are for TTL. The space that would be occupied by the "fire" contact on an F2 instead has the rewind lock.

 

It's been a while since I've used a flash on an F3, but I have a couple of hot shoes and an SB-16. On an F or F2, you slide on the shoe(either an ISO standard shoe or one of the specialty ones, like the one I have that's meant to work with bulb flashes) from the REAR of the camera. BTW, F and F2 shoes are interchangeable. On the F3, you slide them on from the FRONT of the camera. This messed me up more than once since I was in the habit of going from the rear, and it also seems natural to anyone who has used a conventional shoe-mount flash. I'll also had all of my F3 flash stuff-both shoes and the SB16-have a locking ring so that when mounted, the crank is completely surrounded. The only F/F2 shoe I have with this arrangement is an aftermarket one. The "official" (gray plastic) NIkon ones just rely on friction to stay in place.

The SB-17 was designed for the F3 and it won't mount on the F2. You would need the SB-7. The F2 does have a simple ready light at the eyepiece. The shoe of the F3 and F2 are not the same.

There's always the P-C socket and a cheap flash bracket option. Probably easier to source than Nikon's stupid 'somewhere, over the rewind knob' adapters.

Yes, there's always something like this

BTW, the flash unit here is dated but I was able to buy a brand new SLA battery from Metz just this past week. With the right cable and shoe adapter, it will do film TTL on the right camera. As can be seen, it also can easily be hooked up with a PC cord. The sensor for plain old "auto" mode is right on the front of the gun-just set the shutter speed to 1/90 or lower(red line on the dial of a metered prism), then set the film speed and aperture on the back of the flash and match the aperture ring on the lens.

This flash will work with ANY Nikon(or really pretty much any camera with either a PC socket or hot shoe and manual mode) ever made. Of course, it's not the only flash of which that's true, and most of them don't have a 10lb batter pack with a shoulder strap...

Wow Ben, using those old hammerhead Metzes these days shows real dedication to authenticity!

Like most (all?) flash manufacturers, Metz lie about the power of their guns. The '60' series have a measured Guide Number of around 45, and the '45' series aren't much more powerful than a Nikon SB-24, 25, 26, 28, etc. I know which I'd rather lug around, and you can almost boil an egg in the time it takes one of those ancient Metz things to recycle from full power.

All my Metz hammerheads are in retirement now. Thank goodness I 'discovered' the SB-25; a speedlight that offers all the power and features I want in a tidy, well-built (and nowadays quite cheap) little package.

If only YongNuo fitted AA mode to their otherwise near-perfect products.:oops: - is that a wistful emoji? If not, it's meant to be.

After reading through all of this and seeing Bens' rig I'm reminded of the Metz 45CT that put out all the power I ever needed but used a NiCD battery pack. Even better was the SunPack 511 and the battery pack with a disposable 500V battery that cost about $25 back in the 70's. Wish I could find another 511 that worked. I rotated the mount 180 degrees and used it on my F2/md-2 for a perfect balance. Shot a lot of frat parties with it.

Rick H.

Wow Ben, using those old hammerhead Metzes these days shows real dedication to authenticity!

The 60 series flashes are great with old equipment, but I've actually shifted a lot to using the 70 MZ-5. It feels/functions a lot like the 60 series, but can actually do iTTL and otherwise works as well as a Nikon dedicated digital flash(it can also do dTTL, plain TTL, and auto). It has a control box which fits in the hot shoe of the flash and is manipulated via a screen and buttons. Metz has never exactly been know for easy to use products, but it's not a lot worse than the SB800. BTW, one nice thing is that they moved the auto "eye" to the hot shoe control box rather than putting it on the flash head.

The 70 series does have a shoulder/belt mount NiMH pack(which I have) but can also use batteries that fit in the handle. The handle packs contain 6 AA cells, so they're easy enough to repair when they die. Not only can you completely skip the external pack, but if you do use it the pack is smaller and lighter than the old SLA 60 series pack.

BTW, as far as recycle time on the Metz-I just did a few full power pops and the ready light was back on in 4-5 seconds in every case.

Again, I have a brand new "Dry Fit"(SLA) battery installed. It doesn't have a manufacture date on it(that I can find), but I assume it's fairly fresh stock since it only took 10 minutes of charging for the pack to indicate full charge when I first installed it. I didn't dig this up from an obscure source either-it was an in-stock item at B&H that was ordered Wednesday and arrived on Friday.

My experience with 45 and 60 series Metzes is all with NiCd battery packs. I did have a very early Mecablitz with a gel Lead-acid battery, but that was back in the late 1960s, early '70s. I stopped using it after the battery died, since it was well outdated and underpowered by that time.

Anyhoo. I concluded a few years back that the overweight Metz hammers were due for retirement. They were forever on charge or requiring the battery packs to be re-celled. Beside which, their power belied the weight and size of them.

BTW Rick: Sunpak did a solid state replacement 'battery' for the expensive 510v disposable one. It was an inverter circuit with 10 NiCd cells in a plastic box the same size as the HV battery. Mine's still working well, and powers an AZ3600 or 455. The 455 delivers a useful amount of light.

My experience with 45 and 60 series Metzes is all with NiCd battery packs. I did have a very early Mecablitz with a gel Lead-acid battery, but that was back in the late 1960s, early '70s. I stopped using it after the battery died, since it was well outdated and underpowered by that time.

 

Anyhoo. I concluded a few years back that the overweight Metz hammers were due for retirement. They were forever on charge or requiring the battery packs to be re-celled. Beside which, their power belied the weight and size of them.

 

BTW Rick: Sunpak did a solid state replacement 'battery' for the expensive 510v disposable one. It was an inverter circuit with 10 NiCd cells in a plastic box the same size as the HV battery. Mine's still working well, and powers an AZ3600 or 455. The 455 delivers a useful amount of light.

I don't have good luck with NiCad or NiMH but with gel cell my pack for the 60CT4 I had since 2002 still going strong.

I just bought myself a Nikon SB-7 Flash unit for my Nikon F2. Can this flash work on Nikon digital cameras? Like a NikonD60 or D90?

Thanks

Yes, it can, but there are better choices.

First of all, you will need an AS-2 adapter to mount it in a standard hot shoe(and not over the rewind crank in the F/F2 style).

You will need to manually set the shutter speed to the sync speed or slower, then set the ISO to what you desire. Move the calculator dial on the top of the flash to the selected ISO, then read the corresponding aperture. Then, set that aperture on the camera.

I just bought myself a Nikon SB-7 Flash unit for my Nikon F2. Can this flash work on Nikon digital cameras? Like a NikonD60 or D90?

Thanks

- Only if you can find an adaptor to convert the weird foot to a conventional hotshoe. But before spending any money I'd check the voltage present on the shoe. If any pin measures at more than 24 volts, then I'd forget it.*

The SB-7E is a pretty feeble and limited flash anyway. YongNuo and other 3rd party speedlights offer excellent power and compatibility with Nikon DSLRs, at not much more than you're likely to pay for a converter shoe.

* Yes, I know that Nikon claim their DSLRs are safe with trigger voltages up to 250 volts. The problem is that many old flashes present in the region of 350 volts between 'ground' and 'fire' contacts. Furthermore, measurement with a 10 megohm input DVM is misleading. The internal resistance of most old flash trigger circuits prevents accurate measurement of their true - open circuit - voltage.

- Only if you can find an adaptor to convert the weird foot to a conventional hotshoe. But before spending any money I'd check the voltage present on the shoe. If any pin measures at more than 24 volts, then I'd forget it.*

 

The SB-7E is a pretty feeble and limited flash anyway. YongNuo and other 3rd party speedlights offer excellent power and compatibility with Nikon DSLRs, at not much more than you're likely to pay for a converter shoe.

 

* Yes, I know that Nikon claim their DSLRs are safe with trigger voltages up to 250 volts. The problem is that many old flashes present in the region of 350 volts between 'ground' and 'fire' contacts. Furthermore, measurement with a 10 megohm input DVM is misleading. The internal resistance of most old flash trigger circuits prevents accurate measurement of their true - open circuit - voltage.

So how many ohms should I need to measure the trigger voltage?

"So how many ohms should I need to measure the trigger voltage?"

- Loads!

Seriously; to measure directly you need an instrument called an electrometer, which has an input resistance of 1000 Megohms or greater. Alternatively a storage oscilloscope allows you to capture the open-circuit voltage before it discharges and decays.

However, the addition of a simple resistor of 10 Megohms, plus a bit of maths, allows you to calculate the true voltage with two readings, using a cheap Digital Multi Meter (DMM).

The method is to measure the trigger voltage using a 10 Megohm input DMM. Call this reading V1. Then add the 10 Megohm resistor in series with the meter, and take a second reading V2.

You then need to solve two simultaneous equations to find the true, open circuit voltage.

Luckily, the unknown voltage calculation simplifies to (V1*V2)/(V1-V2) provided the added series resistor is equal to the input resistance of the meter.

With old designs of flash circuit, you'll often find the O/C trigger voltage to be somewhere in the region of 330 to 350 volts!

Although this can give you a nasty 'tickle' the current is limited to a safe value by a series resistance of several Megohms. It's this safety resistor that prevents getting a true reading with a DVM or moving-coil meter.