chrisnicola Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I am in the process of scanning my old negative film and have found that some films have snowflake stains. Cleaning with isopropyl alcohol doesn't help. The stains seem to be within the emulsion. Does anyone have an idea what they are? Apart from painstaking digital repair, is there anything I can do to remove them? I have uploaded two examples. One is an unexposed frame. The other is a colour negative copy of a slide from the same roll. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 It looks like mold or mildew has damaged the emulsion. Insects (e.g., carpet beetle larvae) will leave irregular clear spots by consuming the gelatin. Chemical stains would have a fractal structure, not filamentary as shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 Thank you for your reply. That may well be the case. Is there anything I can do to remove it or is the damage permanent? Maybe my only hope is to search for some prints and see if they are in good condition and scan those instead. I have attached a close up of one of the spots. It does appear as if the emulsion is damaged. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 I had a closer look. There is no sign of surface damage on the emulsion side or the shiny side. Both sides are shiny and clean. These blotches appear to be sandwiched within the negative randomly but fairly evenly throughout the whole roll of film. They also have the same colour throughout making me think they are present in a specific layer of the emulsion. Strange. This does make me wonder if it also might be a chemical issue. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Absolutely fungus. It's inside the emulsion because the fungus is eating the gelatin, which is a biological material. Short of a lot of retouching (Photoshop healing brush), there's not much hope for the negatives. Kodak used to publish a formula for a fungicidal dip for B&W negatives, but some of the ingredients were quite toxic. It wouldn't repair them at all, just kill the fungus, and leave poison in them such that fungus wouldn't take hold. I suspect you live somewhere warm and humid. In the future, you need to keep your negatives someplace cool and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 Thank you for your reply. I have little experience diagnosing these problems. So it must be fungus. I live in the Mediterranean which is hot but not that humid. The negatives are between 20-35 years old and for the last 20 years were stored in a professional negative file. The negative sleeves are all spotless. Most of the films on adjacent pages in the same file have no problems at all. Specific 30 year old films do have this problems evenly throughout the entire length. They also have a pale orange colour rather than a dark orange colour. This leads me to believe that the processing was below par and made the films more susceptible to fungus damage than other films of the same age. Of course, storage must have played a part as well. I will accept that there is not much that can be done about that now. I should have started to scan them a lot earlier. I appreciate all your helpful comments. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) Colour negative film has 3 discrete dye layers, plus a yellow filter layer that's rendered transparent during processing. It's quite possible that a strain of fungus has taken a liking to one particular layer, or that some processing fault has left chemicals in the emulsion that encourage fungal growth. It may even be that some chemical has been left in the emulsion to later crystallise. I disagree that fungal and crystalline growth show different patterning. Both are tree shaped following a pseudo random path away from a nucleus. In fact IME fungal growth is more filamentary than crystal growth, at least in the case of surface fungal growth on lens elements. Either way the damage is pretty much irreversible, and all you can do is painstakingly retouch the damage with an image editor. Edited July 19, 2017 by rodeo_joe|1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy_d Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I think they look interesting. Enlarge them in an actual print and see how they look. Maybe exhibit them in art shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen_h Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Thank you for your reply. I have little experience diagnosing these problems. So it must be fungus. I live in the Mediterranean which is hot but not that humid. The negatives are between 20-35 years old and for the last 20 years were stored in a professional negative file. The negative sleeves are all spotless. Most of the films on adjacent pages in the same file have no problems at all. Specific 30 year old films do have this problems evenly throughout the entire length. They also have a pale orange colour rather than a dark orange colour. This leads me to believe that the processing was below par and made the films more susceptible to fungus damage than other films of the same age. Of course, storage must have played a part as well. I will accept that there is not much that can be done about that now. I should have started to scan them a lot earlier. I appreciate all your helpful comments. Kind regards Chris As far as I know, the orange color is part of the film, not part of the processing. Differences are differences in film design. It would be interesting to know which film it was. It might be, if it isn't fungus, that there are some chemical steps that might change it. It doesn't seem likely, but then again, doesn't hurt to try. You could try one strip, maybe an unexposed end of a strip, in water and see if that changes it at all. But fungus has been known in lenses, and I suppose also in film, and I don't believe is usually water soluble. -- glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill C Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I think they look interesting. Enlarge them in an actual print and see how they look. Maybe exhibit them in art shows. I've been a fan of the commercial photography of Neil Montanus since I first became aware of it, perhaps 1970s. He was a photographer for Kodak for many years, even doing a large number of their "coloramas". Some years back he discovered fungus growth on old old film stored "in an unusually damp part of his basement." He DID make prints and exhibit them. Neil Montanus Portfolio - The Bacteria Print Series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Thanks for your comments Eddy and Bill. Yes these patterns do look interesting. In this negative of a winter tree in London the spots have a blue glow that adds to the drama of the image. Kind Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Glen, thank you so much for your suggestion! It appears to have worked! I cut off a small piece of negative from the beginning of the strip and put it into tap water. The emulsion clouded as it soaked up the water and I could not see the spots. I allowed it to soak for about an hour and allowed it to dry for an hour. The spots are all gone! I have attached some before and after scans. This does make me wonder if the spots were caused by some salts due to incorrect washing after processing. It did take them years to appear though. Strange. Of course I will have to check again tomorrow once the film is thoroughly dry. Maybe they will be visible again. If this is the cure, then I will have to find out how to wash and dry lots of negatives so as not to cause further damage and negative curl. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 The difference in the colour of the before and after pictures is caused by the scanner software. The negative didn't change colour after washing. Kind regards chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 After a day the test negative is now thoroughly dry and there is no trace of the spots. They all just washed away in water. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 I would like to ask please, what is the most practical way to wash and dry lots of small strips of negatives without causing damage and curling? I thought of hanging them up using clothes pegs at the edges. Is there a better way? Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnicola Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 Here is the negative drying system I am using. I just hang them up on a curtain rail using garden tie wire through one of the negative sprockets. I have put deionised water (for ironing) in a container with a bit of wetting agent and put the negatives in for a minute. That's all they need to get rid of the spots. Then I shake them and use a rocket blower to get rid of as much water as I can and then hang up to dry. All the spots are gone and they now scan well. Scanning my negatives gives me many happy memories from my film days. I wish to thank everyone for their comments. It was a good learning experience for me. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_sapper Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 "Snowflakes" between the emulsion layers may be voids in the gelatin caused by film production chemicals being out of balance, not being dispersed properly during manufacture of the film (not processing chemistry), or migrating/drying-out after processing. Rewetting the film causes the voids to close, at least temporarily. The voids may return as the gel structure loses moisture content. Your technique of rewetting and gentle drying is a good way to minimize problem, but you will need to reprint or scan the negatives before the snowflakes reappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgelfand Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 It is my understanding, that after washing (or re-washing in this case) the negatives must be stabilized again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Agree, you need to stabilize the negatives again or the dyes will start color shifting. If the film is from before 2000, you need to use Kodak's C-41 Flexicolor Stabilizer III, containing formaldehyde. (Hard to find because it's discontinued, but it shows up on eBay.) If newer than 2000, you can use Kodak's C-41 Flexicolor Final Rinse/Stabilizer. A $5 bottle makes 5 liters (but make it a little at a time.) Both of these also include wetting agent, so you don't get water drops. You need to use appropriate safety considerations with Stabilizer III, due to the formaldehyde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Possible source of Stabilizer III: 1965482 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertq Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Hi all: I have encountered this exact issue, but only on certain color negatives. The affected negs are 30 years old I have no idea what type of film. They also now have a greenish tint when scanned. Wondering if Chris had any issues after washing, and what the effects of trying to stabilize with Flexicolor Final Rinse/Stabilizer instead of Stabilizer III might be. Thanks for any input! Bert ps. I've attached an image. Note: this was scanned while still in the Printfile sleeve hence the muck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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