v basic question - Stop and Fix - should I be re-using?

Been developing at home for years but have recently been shooting alot more film so looking to get my processes right (and more economical).

 

This is probably a really simple question and I apologise because its probably been answered 1000 times elsewhere on the forum.

 

I mix and store developer, stop and fix in 5L containers. I'll then dispense what I need to dev some films (usually 2 or 4 35mm and the odd 120) and usually dump everything i've used after each session.

 

My question is - should I be returning the stop and fix to the containers??

Currently using Ilfostop which is an indicator stop bath and Ilford rapid fixer. I've noticed you can buy test kits for the fixer.

 

I seem to remember from college, when processing film, developer is single use which seems to make sense to me - but correct me here as well if i'm wrong!!

Use your stop bath until it changes colors-that's why it's called "indicating" stop bath.

 

I probably stretch my fixer to far, but I generally mix 16 oz. at a time and use it for 10 "35mm equivalents" or so. 35mm-36, a single roll of 120, and 4 sheets of 4x5 all have roughly the same surface area so that's what I base its use/death on. Also, if I'm in question, I'll pour a little in a dish, drop a film leader in it, and measure the clearing time. With rapid fixers, a leader should clear in 3-4 minutes, so I'll generally replace if it's long than that.

 

Also, remember that fixing is done to completion(unlike developing) so extending the fixing time to make up for a less-than-active fixer is okay also. The leader test is good as one "rule of thumb" is that you should fix for 2x the clearing time.

 

Whether or not a developer can be reused depends on the specific developer. Most that are intended for home use are a one shot deal. In fact, if I remember right 2 rolls of 35mm will more or less use 16 oz. of D76 1:1(Ilford ID-11) to exhaustion. Many commercial developers are designed to be replenished, and there are home developers like TMAX RS that are designed for it. Heck, I think Kodak even makes(or use to make) a D76 replenisher, but I've never seen the need as I'm usually scrambling to use a gallon in the ~6 months rated shelf life after mixing.

 

When I do color(E6) it's a different story. I use a 3-bath kit, although like with B&W only the first developer is absolutely critical in terms of time and temperature. The color developer and Blix are done to completion. The kit I buy gives directions for how much to extend the time of each step with each additional roll developed, but also gives a limit on the total number.

This is probably a really simple question and I apologise because its probably been answered 1000 times elsewhere on the forum.

 

Hi, not that simple, and although answered in the past, difficult to find now. And on these forums, "right" answers are often "diluted" by "wrong" answers by well-meaning people.

 

The trick to getting chemical costs as low as possible is to use "replenished" chemicals as well as multi-stage fixer. But this requires that the user has a certain amount of expertise and has to put a fair amount of work into keeping things right. So people working at home don't generally go this far. You don't want to spend a dollar's worth of your time to save 5 cents worth of chemical.

 

Ben gave you some good answers. The only thing I'd add, with respect to fixer, is that you can stretch your fixer farther, more reliably, by going to a two-stage fixer. Both Kodak and Ilford have published information on doing this. The idea is that fixer reaches "end of life" when it gets a certain amount of silver in it. This makes the rate of fixing slow down, plus forms compounds in the film that are hard to wash out. The cure for this is to give film a dip into some nearly fresh fixer for a final cleanup. So, a two-stage fixer does most of the work in the first tank, then cleanup in the second. When the first tank gets "too dirty," you get rid of it and move the second tank up into its position. Ben's method of checking "clearing time" until it doubles is a generally accepted method for home users to decide when fixer has had enough.

 

One other note - when fixing either film or paper, it is considered to have either a "commercial" or a "long life" (I avoid the word "archival") treatment. The commercial grade allows sloppy fixer use, pushing it fairly far. Whereas the long-life usage makes one discard their fixer earlier (or go to the two-stage regimen).

 

Too much info?

When I had a darkroom several decades ago, I used Edwal "Hypo-Check. Put two drops in the fixer tray, and if the drops turn cloudy, the fixer needs to be replaced. It costs $14.95 for 1 ounce at B&H Photo, but it lasts forever. Very economical in the long run, plus you don't waste time waiting for a piece of film leader to turn clear.

 

Read the 100% favorable reviews on the B&H Photo website.

Developing film is kind of a religion to some and any deviation is a terrible thing. However not for me. I think there are many ways to skin a cat and whatever works for you is good. What I do is use a water stop and then move on to my Ilford rapid fixer. I just replenish it as needed. Use a piece of film leader and fix it in a cup and agitate it the same as you do your film. I like the leader to clear (it becomes transparent) in 2.5 minutes and I fix for 5 minutes. Once in a while I will test a piece of film and replenish my fixer as needed. If your fixer gets discolored or contaminated then just mix a new batch. My fixer just stays nice and clean. For developer I use a 1 shot system with HC110. I use 9.2ml of HC110 for a single roll of 35mm film is all. A bottle of HC110 lasts a long time. I measure my HC110 volume with a baby feeding syringe found at any pharmacy for $2.50.

Great advise Ben - exactly what I was looking for. Had never heard of using a film leader to test fixer which is ingenious, but reading the other comments seems to be a common practice. Appears I have been dumping good chemicals all these years!

 

Bill - not too much info - I get the concepts and while the two stage fixer is not something I would use now, its good to know these solutions as I might decide to use them in the future and even if I never use the method, I find the broader understanding useful.

 

Vincent - the fixer check is something i've seen and am considering it for my print bath. As stated i'm shooting more and more film these days but most of it gets scanned. However, I have a dark room in the loft so it could be useful in a fixer that doesn't get used much. That said - I should have lots of film leaders (now i'm going to start saing them) so i'll see how I get on with those.

 

rossb - I just ordered some HC110 last week as been reading good things about it, although using up my current Ilfotec stock first. I got three young kids so a drawer full of baby syringes!! Also picked up some of the Kodak stop bath as it dilutes 1:63 which seems very economical, plus the Ilfostop seems to grow some kind of mould jelly in the container which I have to filter with coffee filters - so hope the Kodak stop doesnt do this!

 

Thanks all for the advise - at the moment I'm just looking for an easy workflow that produces uniform results on my negs.

 

One last question however: As I mentioned, I currently mix in 5L containers. I easily use this in 6 months, although this might change now I'm not throwing it all down the sink! However, I've found in the past that shelf life is often much longer than that stated on the labell. Do you think its a good idea to invest in some smaller containers? I suppose it cant hurt for the small price of some 1L jars for stop and fox (will probably still use 5L for developer as I will certainly use that in 6 months).

 

Thanks again all.

Do you think its a good idea to invest in some smaller containers?

Absolutely!

I feel challenged to understand a benefit of having more than 15% too much stop bath at hand. I used to process film on a Jobo and 1l seemed enough. - If the Combiplans need more I'll make more... 1l of all kinds of chemicals seemed right for tray-processing 8x10"s & smaller too.

Developer: My Ilford soups came in boxes for 2.5l. I put those into multiple brown glass bottles after mixing and decided to go for 1+3 diluted 1 shot solutions. With Kodak T-Max developer I reused 1l and marked my stock bottle how many films I had run through it. - I think 1l was good for 12 films and needed longer times after 4 and 8? - I wasn#t comfy with that. - I suck at memorizing numbers....

Thanks a ton @Bill C for mentioning two stage fixer. - I did not know about that previously.

Shelf times: for stop & fix I'd guess "infinite". - For developer I'd fear the worst. I kept mine in closed glass bottles filled to the rim or with anti-oxidation spray on top to avoid oxidation as good as possible.

It's kind of hard to aspirate HC110 straight from the bottle. The baby syringe does come with an aspiration cork type thing but it did not fit my bottle of HC110. What I do is pour off some into a plastic film container and aspirate from that. Then I put the cap on it and save the remainder and fill as needed on the next developing session.

You should never ever return used chemistry to the large stock bottles. Chose some small batch size that makes sense, say a quart, and use that to capacity, then dump it. FWIW, I've always used developer as a 1-shot and dump, regardless of type or dilution. It just isn't worth it to me to have to adjust times or replenish, considering the minimal cost of the stuff.

You should never ever return used chemistry to the large stock bottles. Chose some small batch size that makes sense, say a quart, and use that to capacity, then dump it. FWIW, I've always used developer as a 1-shot and dump, regardless of type or dilution. It just isn't worth it to me to have to adjust times or replenish, considering the minimal cost of the stuff.

Absolutely agree, with a proviso -- Do observe indicator stop bath color and discard as needed, switch the second fixer with first fixer at use level you are comfortable with putting fresh in the second fixer bottle. Use hypo eliminator, rinse thoroughly, follow with Photo flo and hang in a dust free area. If you haven't got a drying cabinet or film dryer, the shower stall isn't bad.

Here's another random comment, and pardon the chemistry professor in me going off on a bit of a tangent-

 

Developer is the most perishable component of the common black and white chemicals. Developers are reducing agents-that's how they work as they reduce(accept electrons) from Ag+ ions in the film emulsion to allow them to become Ag0(metallic silver). When a reducing agent reduces something, it is oxidized in and of itself-oxidation and reduction always go hand in hand.

 

The "problem" is that developer can also be oxidized easily enough by oxygen in the air. Many folks take measures to limit both the amount of air in the bottle and the surface area of the bottle for that very reason. Squeezing the bottle is the easiest way, but many folks will also use glass marbles to keep the fluid level near the top. Freestyle in the US sells "accordion" bottles that allow you to squeeze the air out more easily.

 

BTW, I'm guessing your in the UK or Europe. 5L sounds like a lot of chemistry to mix. In the US, solid developers like D76 and Dektol usually come in a quantity to be mixed with 1 gallon of water, or 3.75 liters. Kodak officially says that mixed(stock) D76 is is good for 6 months in a full bottle and 2 months in a half full bottle. Personally, I just this past weekend finished off a bottle that I'd mixed over the summer. Even though it had yellowed some, it worked fine and gave the correct densities with normal times. I think the bottle of Dektol I'm working with is about a year old, but the prints from it still look fine. I've even left Dektol in a tray for a few days at a time and had it work okay, although it gets nasty looking.

My advice: Divide your 5 litre stock into 1 litre bottles. That way you'll have fresh solutions in full-stoppered bottles and they'll keep longer.

 

Mixing fresh and used chemicals by pouring them back into one large container isn't a good idea.

 

The idea of stop bath is that it preserves the life of the fixer, but fixer and stop bath need to be matched. It's not good using an acid stop bath with a so-called alkali fixer. I wouldn't recommend re-using stop bath either.

 

Personally, I'm not a great believer in the supposed benefit of alkali fixers, so I would use a disposable acid stop bath and re-use the (acid) fixer to exhaustion.

 

Glacial acetic acid used to be easily obtainable and I would use something like 10ml to a litre of water as a stop bath, and dispose of it after use. Unfortunately, H&S has stepped in and made glacial acid pretty unobtainable. These days I would use citric acid crystals instead, which you can still purchase as a kettle de-scaler. It's cheap enough to throw away after a single use or printing session. About 10gm - a heaped teaspoon - per litre should make a suitable strength stop bath.

Edited January 18, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

Ben's suggestion are pretty much spot on:

• Developers are one-shot (unless you want the hassle of replenishment)
   
  
• Fixers can be reused until they become saturated with silver
  
• Stop bath can also be reused if it contains an indicator
  

I deviated from this practice in two respects. First, I kept count of the number of times the fixer had been used, and discarded it when I reached about one half of the reuse capacity recommended by the manufacturer. Fixing is done to completion, but the shorter the time in the fixer, the easier it is to wash the film or print. Hence, it makes sense to keep fixing time relatively short.

 

I didn't use indicating stop baths. Instead, I mixed a stop bath from acetic acid, and used it as a one-shot. And because it's a one-shot, I used about half the recommended amount of acetic acid to make the stop. Acetic acid is inexpensive, so discarding the stop after one use is not that wasteful. Also, I never used stop on film. Developers are basic (pn>7), and the purpose of the stop is to neutralize the ph of the emulsion in order to extend the life of the fixer which is acidic. A brief wash in water is sufficient with film, but because FB paper can absorb chemicals, an actual acid stop is required to neutralize the ph.

Also, I never used stop on film. Developers are basic (pn>7), and the purpose of the stop is to neutralize the ph of the emulsion in order to extend the life of the fixer which is acidic. A brief wash in water is sufficient with film, but because FB paper can absorb chemicals, an actual acid stop is required to neutralize the ph.

 

This is interesting - so your saying that a short rinse in water can replace a stop bath when developing film?

So I could for example develop for the 6.5 mins (for HP5) in Ilfotec HC - rinse - then fix with Ilford Rapid fixer as usual?

The idea of stop bath is that it preserves the life of the fixer, but fixer and stop bath need to be matched. It's not good using an acid stop bath with a so-called alkali fixer. I wouldn't recommend re-using stop bath either.

 

OK this has confused things as I just picked up some Kodak Indicator Stop Bath - is this going to be OK with Ilford Rapid Fixer? Looks like the main component of the Kodak stop is acetic acid and Ilfostop is citric acid - vinegar vs limes right? I guess a both acids i'm OK - they are both pushing the ph in the same direction?

Simple solution - stay within same brand chemistry families and follow their published directions. There are individuals who choose not to use stop bath, there are even some who claim that fixer is not necessary. The former is not a particular problem, and just reduces life span of fixer, the latter is not advisable. When in doubt on PN advice it is generally safest is to stay with trusted sources and the weight of opinion.

The only real incompatibility I'm aware of is using an acid stop bath with an alkaline fixer. Other than that, any acid stop should work with any acid fixer. I can think of more reasons to use a proper acid stop bath, than reasons not to. As for not using fixer, that's just ignorant.

Acid stop+rapid fixer is okay.

 

BTW, the citric acid idea for a stop bath is a good one. One of the main reasons I don't use a stop bath most of the time is that the smell of glacial acetic makes me physically ill, and that's using it in a fume hood. I can't imagine using it at home. I just have to take a deep breath and bear it at work, but I try to avoid it.

 

Granted at least glacial acetic isn't as bad as acetic anhydride...which I fortunately rarely have to use.

A good source of information - given a modicum of chemical knowledge - is to Google the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) of the product(s) in question. It's a legal requirement for manufacturers to give basic information about the contents, pH, toxicity, etc. of their chemical products.

 

Some makers claim 'proprietary' immunity from revealing the full formula, but some countries have legislation that forces them to reveal the full contents. Canada is one country that forces quite full disclosure, so get the MSDS from a Canadian site if possible.

 

"..there are even some who claim that fixer is not necessary."

 

- So those pioneers like Niepce and Fox-Talbot completely wasted their time looking for the 'holy grail' that stopped their pictures fading?

 

Nutters abound!

Edited January 20, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1