Legal status and PN policy on railroad photos

Union Pacific Policy for Photography and Video Recording . Union Pacific says they will legally try to have publicly displayed photos from unauthorized access to their property removed. Do they have any teeth?

If you go on UP property (or any railroad's property) without their permission, you're trespassing. Worse, if you walk on their tracks, you could get yourself killed. That alone would keep me off their trackage while taking pictures.

 

The courts will have to decide if they can block publication of photos taken illegally on their property.

I agree it is smart to stay off the tracks and I believe that is considered trespassing as well. I do know that UP along with several other major railroads requires a fee for each model train car or locomotive painted in their colors so I am not surprised at all that they are trying to control images. NASCAR, NCAA, NFL, NBA, major league baseball all claim rights to any images shot by a ticketholder while in their venue. They have all gotten so control oriented that I rarely attend a game anymore.

 

Rick H.

There are still many places to get interesting rail shots, there are many abandoned lines around, some within walking distance of me. There are also many vantage points where you do not have to be on the tracks to get shots that look like you are, especially with the use of telephoto lenses shot from curves, hills, bridges and railroad crossings where it is legal to cross the tracks. Just a matter of being creative without breaking the law or risking your life.

...I do know that UP along with several other major railroads requires a fee for each model train car or locomotive painted in their colors so I am not surprised at all that they are trying to control images...

 

Rick H.

 

At first, UP wanted a high fee for any model railroad equipment painted in their colors. However, they (and other railroads that tried to follow their lead) got such bad press about the policy that they finally relented and now they charge a very small, token fee (if anything) to model their railroad.

In general, the laws in the U.S. and Canada are similar.

 

1. While the photographer in on public property. You have the right to photograph anything that you can see except for through-the-window shots of rooms where the occupants have a reasonable expectation of privacy (mainly bathrooms, bedrooms, changing rooms). There can be restrictions if on park property or public roads.

 

2. While on private property open to the public (shopping centres, stores, amusement parks, etc.) you can take photos unless there is a prominent sign that prohibits photography. If there is no sign, you can take photos until the owner or occupant tells you to stop. He cannot seize your camera or require you to erase or destroy images taken before you were informed.

 

3. While on private property not open to the public (including railroads and other property where being present without permission constitutes trespass). Publishing such pictures requires the permission of the property owner.

 

Here's an example that includes all three categories:

 

Trump Tower in New York.

 

1. From the street, you can photograph anything you can see except the interior of private spaces where there is an expectation of privacy (e.g. Donald Trump's bathroom).

Some jurisdictions may limit the use of telephoto lenses in the latter case.

 

2. In the lobby, restaurants or shops, photography is allowed unless signage prohibits it or the occupant orders you to stop. Generally you can publish photos taken if there is no sign or until you are asked to stop. Your photos cannot be seized, erased or destroyed.

 

3. You are a plumber and given entry to Trump's apartment to make repairs. The permission given to enter does not give you permission to take photos of the apartment (except any taken as needed to make the repairs). You can be sued and/or ordered to cease and desist and ordered to take down photos published without permission.

 

4. Trump goes down the hall to a neighbour's apartment and leaves his own door ajar. You can take pictures from the hallway (unless Trump or the building owner tells you to stop) and you can publish them. If you trespass and enter the apartment, you do not have permission to take or publish any photos. You can be sued and perhaps arrested. Don't make any quick or ambiguous moves; avoid words like "shoot" even in a photographic context and obey all orders from the nice Secret Service gentlemen who will greet you in Mr. Trump's absence.

I understand the points raised about the legality of taking / publishing photographs of and in private environs. The point which I made in the 'No Words' forum, about how the regulations could be enforced by the railroad under discussion, as pointed out by Donald Miller at the top of this discussion, was intended to enquire how this affected Railway photography in the UK.

David asked about the Union Pacific railroad, which operates in the U.S., West of the Mississippi River not about the U.K. (United Kingdom).

 

To take action against the photographer, one would have to idenify him and be able to prove that he was actually on railroad property when he took the photo. Unless there is an eyewitness or surveillance images, that could be very difficult to do, depending on the location. If that can be done, then the railroad company would turn the matter over to their full-time lawyers who would determine the apprach to take.

 

Frankly, I doubt the company would do much, if anything.

 

 

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/7/70/20090115110340%21Union_Pacific_Railroad_system_map.svg

David asked about the Union Pacific railroad, which operates in the U.S., West of the Mississippi River not about the U.K. (United Kingdom)..

 

Yes, I comprehend this, but my original contribution, made in the 'No Words' forum, in response to a comment by another member, made it clear that I was only referring to Railway photography in Britain, since that is where I reside. As I suggested the discussion in the 'No Words' forum be transferred to this forum, since I felt it was in danger of contravening the ethos of the 'No Words' forum, I wanted to re-iterate my original point.

Monopolies in the US have all kinds of rules and few of them make sense. I personally like to stick it to "the man" because it is one of the few powers I have as a middle class dude that knows that our legal system has so many holes in it that you can pretty much do what you want as long as you don't injure anyone and don't violate your own moral principles.

I've done my fair share of rail photography. Heck, my favorite photographer of all time is O. Winston Link, and I'd love to be able to replicate his style(he had the railroads blessing also and often the coordination-you don't just fire 100 flashbulbs at a train at night without making enemies).

 

The bottom line is to respect the rail road right-of-ways and photograph from public places OR get permission. The latter is increasingly difficult, but a portfolio can help you get an escort into yards or other places like that(don't expect to get a free-for-all to go wherever you want).

 

Aside from the trespassing issue, it's also a very dangerous place to be. Cars extend a decent ways over the rails anyway and something dangling from a train going 79mph can ruin your day pretty fast.

 

Bear in mind also that the ROW often extends a good ways beyond the the track in both directions.

 

BTW, in the US railroads maintain police forces that operate under special consideration under the law. The railroad police are fully deputized officers with arrest powers, and have the right to remove you for trespass or arrest you if you don't comply. This is cut and dry, so don't try to play lawyer if you encounter them. Granted their jurisdiction ONLY extends to the edge of the ROW, so if you are firmly off the right of way(make sure you actually are sure of this-i.e. on a public sidewalk or on private land where you have a right to be) you are free to tell them to buzz off. They know this, though, so won't generally bother you if you are off the property.

Tony: Sorry for the confusion about UP and UK. I didn't realize the thread had been moved. So to make amends, here is UK law:

 

"Only certain parts of the railway are open to the public, like stations, platforms and safe crossing places: underpasses, public bridges, level crossings and public foot crossings. You will be trespassing if you go on to the tracks, embankments or any other area – for any reason at any time. You can be fined up to £1,000 if you trespass on the railway."

Link: Trespassing and vandalism - Network Rail

For more information contact the British Transport Police:

first_contact@btp.pnn.police.uk

 

As you can see, a level crossing is considered a public place. Of course, if you stand there to take photos and the next train doesn't kill you, the next car may. :eek:

In the U.S. there are restrictions on photography even in public or semi-public areas, including commuter stations and platforms, pursuant to Homeland Security.

As you can see, a level crossing is considered a public place. Of course, if you stand there to take photos and the next train doesn't kill you, the next car may.

 

Thanks for the clarification - I understand that non-public areas of the UK rail network are off-limits for photography. I was attempting to explain that a blanket ban on railway photography does not exist in the UK, provided the images are taken from public areas. Thank you also for the reference to the legislation, and the contact details of other interested organisations. I agree about the motor cars - does using the brake actually cause physical pain to the operators of these dangerous devices ?

There are still many places to get interesting rail shots, there are many abandoned lines around, some within walking distance of me. There are also many vantage points where you do not have to be on the tracks to get shots that look like you are, especially with the use of telephoto lenses shot from curves, hills, bridges and railroad crossings where it is legal to cross the tracks. Just a matter of being creative without breaking the law or risking your life.

I was under the impression that unused ("abandoned") track is still property of the RR forever. Again I use the words under the impression that a lot of income for Grand Central RR comes from the fact that they own property on both sides of their track of 100 yards. Their tunnel is under Park Avenue in NYC and they still own alot of that real estate. This was granted to encourage RR construction in earlier times.

I was under the impression that unused ("abandoned") track is still property of the RR forever. Again I use the words under the impression that a lot of income for Grand Central RR comes from the fact that they own property on both sides of their track of 100 yards. Their tunnel is under Park Avenue in NYC and they still own alot of that real estate. This was granted to encourage RR construction in earlier times.

 

If there's still track down, it's a pretty safe bet it's still railroad property,

 

Also, keep in mind that "abandoned" has a very specific meaning.

 

As an example, I have spent some time documenting the former Monon line in Southern Indiana. This is not an active line-sometime around 2008 CSX filed for "Discontinuation of service." Most folks would call it "abandoned" but it's not. One of the great attractions to me is that it has semaphores and control wires, but the semaphores are long dead and copper thieves have stolen most control wires(and either insulator collectors or kids with 22s have taken care of a lot of the insulators). None the less, I still see the occasional maintenance of way vehicle on the track. It's likely that it will be at least temporarily reactivated at some point in the future as CSX has stored some unused rolling stock on it, and they will at a minimum need to get it out. This is still unquestionably RR property.

 

As a side note, I know for a fact that this particular line has been filed for discontinuation of service. I stay off of it, but none the less I've seen/researched the documents on it. "I've never seen a train here" is not good enough-I know of plenty of spurs that might see one train every other week(so you may well have never seen a train there) but none the less are active.

 

Should they officially file for abandonment(a step beyond discontinuation of service) most likely the rails would be gone-there's too much scrap metal there to leave sitting. Still, it's railroad property,

 

With all of that said, there are abandoned railroad ROWs in the US that have become part of the "rails to trails" program. These are ROWs that have officially been turned into publicly accessible walking/biking/hiking trails and are completely okay to be on within the trail rules.

 

Like I said, though, in general if you see track stay off of it.

In the U.S. there are restrictions on photography even in public or semi-public areas, including commuter stations and platforms, pursuant to Homeland Security.

 

With the exception of defense installations, where photography can be banned persuant to federal statue, DHS has no legal right to restrict photography in transportation facilities, except in areas limited to passengers or immigrant screening. There are no photography restrictions in the Patriot Act. If you are not a passenger, you may not be allowed in passenger areas but if on public property outside those areas, you can take photos of those areas (if they are visible to you).

 

Here's a summary of U.S. law:

 

• 
  
  
  • With a few notable exceptions (...), you can photograph anything you can see in public. That means you can legally photograph subjects such as people, buildings, bridges, trains, police officers etc. without asking or getting prior permission. On private property (e.g. in shopping malls, stores, theaters, hotels and sports arenas) you need the permission of the property owner to take photographs. While the act of photography itself in such areas isn't illegal, if asked to stop taking pictures and leave you must do so or risk prosecution for trespass.
    
  • You can generally take photographs of and in public areas of transit systems. For Example, Amtrak and the New York and Chicago Transit authorities specifically permit hand held non-commercial photography as long as it doesn't interfere with other passengers or the system operation.
    
  • Nobody has the right to require you to delete images you have taken and only the police can require that you show them the pictures in your camera - and even that requires a search warrant unless you give them permission.
    
  • Signed releases are only required for commercial (trade and advertising) use of photographs. Editorial, news and art usage generally requires no release from the subject, though some publication may requires them "just to be on the safe side". It certainly never hurts to have a signed release on hand should a dispute occur. Get one whenever it's possible, even if you have no intention of using the images commercially. Often it's not possible, in which case don't worry about it. Just don't use unreleased images for commercial purposes.
    
  • Just because you are not doing anything illegal doesn't mean you can't be stopped, questioned, detained, charged and prosecuted. Often charges arise not because of the photography but because of something ancillary such as trespass or activity related to disturbing the peace, assault, resisting arrest and such similar charges when you try to argue with a police officer/mall cop and things get heated. In case of confrontation, don't make things worse by loosing your cool. [emphasis added]
    

Source: Photography, the Law and Photographers Rights - Bob Atkins Photography

Any sought of confrontation is just plain ill thought out. You never know who you are talking too. I might have been photographing at the time but I do not remember and it is irrelevant. There is/was a small D&H maintenance site in Champlain,NY. My father in law knew everyone in town and took his children and grandchildren there to have a look see. My brother in law and i took our kids there (we are from down state). Suddenly we are confronted by a younger worker who was quite aggressive and obnoxious and had some back up. My sense he had a liquid lunch and was quite impressed with himself and this long lecture. All he had to do was tell us to leave. So wew get in the car compliantly with no back talk o leaveand no provacatim on and left. The only thing i did was as we drove of I let out a loud laugh to make sure he heard it. He came flying out of the shed hurling a large heavy wrench at us but we were well out of range. I had no problem with being told to leave to leave but I did feel entitled to make an editorial comment on the way he said and that he was inebriated on the job. Edited June 29, 2017 by donald_miller|5

Didn't have to get out of my car.

If there is an elevated alert status (or higher) from DHS, all photography is restricted on trains and platforms, regardless of ticketed status. At present, the status is at "Bulletin" level.

If there is an elevated alert status (or higher) from DHS, all photography is restricted on trains and platforms, regardless of ticketed status. At present, the status is at "Bulletin" level.

 

According to an Amtrak bulletin, this restriction applies only to non-ticketed persons. Ticketed passengers can continue to take photos even if the DHS alert status is elevated.

"In emergency and/or special circumstances (for example, declared elevation of Homeland Security Advisory System to High (...) and where actions are deemed suspicious or inconsistent with this policy by observing/reporting persons, photographers and videographers may be approached and questioned to determine if further investigation or action is necessary."

"Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:

1. Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt)
   
2. Crew and Employee Work Areas
   
3. Maintenance Facilities
   
4. Unoccupied Trains and Engines
   
5. Office Areas
   
6. Employee Elevators
   
7. Baggage/Delivery Areas
   
8. Commissaries
   
9. Right of Way and Track Areas
   
10. In service train cars"
    

Amtrak Corporate Guidelines on Photography and Video Recording

 

The only information about photography on the DHS site is the DHS policy on photographing the exterior of federal buildings and installations. Such photography is allowed. A court decision gives limited authority to restrict photography on the premises of Customs and Border Patrol entry points.

Read it again!

 

Restricted areas are always restricted. Ticketed passengers can take pictures in certain public areas. That exception does not apply in case of elevated alert status.

Read it again!

 

Restricted areas are always restricted. Ticketed passengers can take pictures in certain public areas. That exception does not apply in case of elevated alert status.

 

Perhaps you should read it again. According to Amtrak, even when DHS has invoked a high alert status, "Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:

1. Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt)"
   

It is possible, of course, that Amtrak is mistaken. I'm just citing their public statement on the matter.

 

As I said, after searching the DHS Website, the only information about photography was their acknowledgment that photographers standing on public ground can take pictures of federal installations and buildings. See DHS HQ-IB-012-2010 (redacted) "Photographing the Exterior of Federal Facilities". I found nothing about any other facilities (e.g., railroads and rail stations, maritime ports, public areas of airports (outside screening areas), bridges, etc.)

 

In all cases, under applicable federal law, individuals can be questioned but cannot be required to answer or be detained unless the law enforcement officer has "reasonable suspicion" that the individual is engaging in or preparing to engage in illegal activity related to public safety or national security.

 

If you have any references supporting your position, I would be glad to consider know about them.

The "ticketed passenger" exemption is the general rule, but a national security alert overrides it. Right-of-Way, platforms and terminals are not public ground, rather property of or under the jurisdiction of the railroad. In Chicago, police are conducting random searches on what you consider "public" property.

 

Maritime ports, locks and dams are under the jurisdiction of the Army Corp of Engineers, along with several other local, state and federal agencies. Each seems to have (and enforce) their own rules.

 

Go ahead and shoot all you want. Do you feel lucky?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ed_Ingold

Ed, I think I'm ready to withdraw from this discussion, but as a conclusion I'll make a couple of remarks.

 

The general rule in the United States is that anyone may take photographs of whatever they want when they are in a public place or places where they have permission to take photographs. Absent a specific legal prohibition such as a statute or ordinance, you are legally entitled to take photographs.

 

There are some exceptions to the general rule. For example, commanders of military installations can prohibit photographs of specific areas when they deem it necessary to pro-tect national security. The U.S. Department of Energy can also prohibit photography of designated nuclear facilities although the publicly visible areas of nuclear facilities are usually not designated as such.

 

Despite misconceptions to the con-trary, the following subjects can almost always be photographed law-fully from public places:

 

accident and fire scenes

children

bridges and other infrastructure

residential and commercial buildings

industrial facilities

public utilities

transportation facilities

criminal activities and arrests

law enforcement officers

 

Since the 9/11 attacks, there has been a lot of misinformation about photography restrictions. In some cases, federal and local law enforcement agents have claimed that restrictions exist where in fact there are none and sometimes illegally detained photographers.

In a 2010 court case the DHS was ordered to stop trying to prevent people from taking pictures of federal buildings while standing on public property.

 

You might want to consult the following resource:

Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images

 

Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images (Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights & Liabilities of): Bert P Krages: 9781608954759: Amazon.com: Books