Any anti shake tests using long lenses?

Does anyone know of anyone that has tested the antishake system on

longer lenses ? 300mm at the very least,but preferably 400 or 500mm.

I don't have a formal test online, but I can say that it works well. AS works with longer lenses like it works with shorter lenses.

Ron- With any lens, you can expect a 2-3 stop improvement in hand-holdability with AS on. That means with a 500mm lens attached to the body, and with the 1.5X factor, which makes it the equivalent of a 750mm on a 35mm camera, instead of having to have a shutter speed of around 1/750 of a sec., you'll be able to shoot at a much lower speed. However, if you put the camera on a tripod, KM recommends that you turn off the AS function.

Thanks guys.

<P>There was talk of the AS feature not working as well with longer lenses,perhaps due to the limited distance the sensor could move.Has anything definite been proven for or against?

Yeah, there's lots of talk on the Internet. But every test that was actually done (rather than specualated about) showed that AS works as designed, even with longer lenses.

Ron- It doesn't matter how long a lens you use. the Anti-Shake function will give you an improvement of 2-3 stops. If you use a 24mm lens, normally you're advised to use a shutter speed of at least 1/24 sec. to 'freeze' movement, if you're handholding the camera. So a 2-3 stop factor means that you can use a slower speed of 1/6 sec and handhold and get a in-focus shot. If you put a 500mm lens on a camera and shoot a picture hand holding the camera, you'd need a speed of 1/500 sec, to receive a in-focus shot. With AS, you can probably handhold at 1/125 sec and get a sharp photo. It depends on how steady you are.

 

Remember, AS is not a miracle worker. Don't expect to handhold a 500mm lens and shoot at 1/30 sec and get a sharp shot, unless you have real steady hands. If you have Parkinson and your hands tremble, you may need a shutter speed of 1/2000 to handhold and get a sharp photo.

 

Of course, instead of using a slower shutter speed, you can also use a smaller aperture then you normally use.

.

 

My first 300mm (135 equiv.) test arrived sharp at 1/80 seconds hand held on my Konica Minolta DiMage A1 with AS anti shake.

 

See some of my example pictures at:

 

http://www.geocities.com/peterblaisephotography20051103/peterblaise20051103-57-700x.html

 

plus the next 6 [next] pictures from the above link.

 

All the same scene - an interior office with a calendar on the desk, all hand held with AS anti shake on, except the final two macro shots listed below which were tripod and no AS anti shake:

 

AS anti shake Picture #57 = 22mm using wide-angle adapter

 

AS anti shake Picture #58 = 28mm "normal" wide angle

 

AS anti shake Picture #59 = 200mm "normal" telephoto

 

AS anti shake Picture #60 = 300mm using tele converter

 

Tripod Picture #61 = 200mm "normal" macro

 

Tripod Picture #62 = 200mm macro + close-up adapter - notice the print dot pattern on the calendar

 

Remember - Minolta started AS anti shake as a passive system in the 1981 Minolta X-700 MPS Minolta Program System.

 

Minolta kept growing AS anti shake features and benefits, as in the 1990s "si" fuzzy logic" systems (700si and so on) which calculated the frequency of movement in the auto focus sensors -- high being subject movement, low being camera shake, and adjusted the shutter speed accordingly, along with reading lens focal length and trying to obey the 1/focal-length rule.

 

AS anti shake didn't just "happen" all at once with the current Minolta products -- it's been under progressive development and incremental release for ~25 years -- only from the Mind of Minolta!

 

Also, since my TTL EVF KMDA1 has no flippin' SLR mirror to shake the camera internals, slow shutter speeds are not as much of a problem for non-SLR systems.

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise peterblaise@yahoo.com http://www.peterblaisephotogrpahy.com/

"There was talk of the AS feature not working as well with longer lenses"

 

I have heard that, too. Seems to always come from Canikon owners trying to justify their investments. This subject really pisses those people off.

 

AS is somewhat a compromise. While AS has to cover all focal lengths, a IS/VR lens can be tuned specifically for that lens.

 

I looked, the cheapest lens that Canon/Nikon make at those focal lengths with IS/VR is over $1400, $5000 for a prime. If you are looking at a third party lens, you won't get any IS/VR on a Canon/Nikon. You will on a KonicaMinolta.

 

Will a $5000 IS lens out perform a $800 Tamron zoom lens? Probably. Will a $7000 Canon 600mm IS out perform a $7000 KM 600mm mounted on a body with AS? Just barely IF at all.

 

So, if you are living with a super-telephoto lens mounted on your camera and shooting moving objects in low light, and you have the budget, you might want to take an equal look at what Canikon has to offer.

 

If you are looking for another tool in the toolbox, I doubt AS will do you any wrong.

 

chad

Peter- You are way off base with your statement that Anti-Shake started back with the X-700. Where did you get your info? I have never seen Minolta, or KonicaMinolta, try and claim that AS had it's roots in 'fuzzy logic'. The X-700 did not have auto-focus, and when I owned one, I didn't see any function that can be remotely connected to today's Anti-Shake. I've read many Minolta brochures and press releases over the years, and none had tried to make any connection of today's Anti-Shake with previous cameras.

 

I think you're making this up completely. next thing you'll be telling us that Minolta was responsible for men going to the moon, because NASA used Minolta light meters.

 

Peter, either put up or shut up.

.

 

How about a voluntary zero tolerance policy on ad homonym (against a PERSON) attacks, and maybe we fellow Minolta Photographers will lead the pack and actually see brotherly love between Nikonians and Canonites. Otherwise, we all can, as I do, use our own scroll and delete keys to filter our own reading. We might also ask questions and do additional research - http://www.uspto.gov/

 

It could happen.

 

================

 

The 1980s Minolta X-700 MPS Minolta Program System "tilted" the auto exposure curve non-linearly to increase shutter speed to prevent camera shake being captured on film -- the first attempt by Minolta to automate the concept of "anti shake".

 

Already mentioned were the 1990s Minolta "si" sophisticated intelligence cameras with their fuzzy logic which, along with an awareness of lens focal length setting, could tell the difference between subject movement (follow focus and predictive focus during exposure) and camera movement -- different frequencies in the auto focus sensor information stream -- and these cameras in program mode would adjust the shutter speed, again, non-linearly, to avoid capturing camera shake on film -- these are subsequent attempts by Minolta to automate the concept of "anti shake".

 

There are at least 5 ways I know of automating anti shake:

 

- Tripod.

 

- Flash.

 

- High shutter speed.

 

- No flippin' mirror.

 

- Move something within the camera system to counteract the shake.

 

Minolta has been implementing automated anti shake resources using the latter three since 1981.

 

================

 

Ron, let us know how you are doping in your decision making.

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise peterblaise@yahoo.com http://www.peterblaisephotogrpahy.com/

Only From the Mind of Peter Blaise.

 

Apparently, this connection is something that came from your mind, as it didn't come from Minolta's. Since you have so much time thinking up this type of BS, perhaps you should work for KM in their Public Relations dept., they need some help convincing the public that they should continue to buy their products.

 

Once again, Peter, point me towards some official Konica/Minolta publication or website, where they make this connection. Otherwise, you'ree even more whacked, then I used to believe you were.

<P>I currently have a 300D .I'm not serious about changing camps or even buying another DSLR *just* yet,but when i do i'll very seriously consider the minolta.

<BR>But i'll need to see a demonstration of AS capability first.There have been way too many people saying that it's ability fades as focal lengths get longer -including some very experienced reviewers,so it's just too great a worry to ignore.

 

<P>I have seen an excellent online test but he only used lenses up to 200mm.

<BR>The way it was done was that he showed crops of the actual images from multiple attempts at each setting.It very clearly showed the 'hit rate' of anti shake verses tripod when used at one to three stops under the 'focal length rule'.

 

<P>what i NEED to see is a similar test showing the hit rate achieved with long lenses.Why has no one done this yet?It would clear up the confusion and counter claims overnight?

Ron- It beginning to sound like you expect miracles from the Anti-Shake function. What AS does, is to allow you to be able to use a slower shutter speed with it on than if you were to turn it off. If, with your present set-up, you can hand-hold a 300mm at 1/250 sec, then with AS, you can expect to hand hold at 1/60 and get sharp focus. But, you have to remember that the 7D, or 5D, turns a 300mm into the equivalent of a 450mm lens on a 35mm camera. So, the test where they used a 200mm lens, is like hand-holding a 300mm. Not many photographers using film, try to hand-hold a lens longer than a 300mm, not that it is impossible to do so.

 

And, as a photo magazine pointed out, the amount of coffee you just drank, will affect the amount your hands tremble, so the fact that one minute you could hand-hold a 200mm (300mm on a 7D), at 1/60 second, may mean that the next shot will require you to use 1/120 sec. because your hands are shaking more.

 

The reports that AS doesn't work as well with longer lens is an illusion, as with wider angle lens you can normally hand-hold at slower shutter speeds to compensate for low-light. But, under the same lighting conditions, that slower shutter speed may not work with a longer lens. And don't expect miracles, if you're deliberately trying to shake the camera as you release the shutter.

 

I suggest you go to a camera shop and try out the store's demo unit with a few lenses. Print the pictures out or view them on a computer to satisfy your concerns. There is no need to continually ask for feedback, just do your own tests.

Well, one reason why no one (that we know) has done it yet, is probably cost. Take a look at the prices on some of those high end Minolta lenses from B&H, and then figure - shoot - just to do a test? Talking some crazy bucks here.<BR>

I agree - it needs to be done. But it will probably have to be a KM rep w/ some serious glass on his/her hands.<BR>

Jed

Dear Clinton,

 

Pro Primo - Ron asked about tests on the AS with 300 or over lenses. Peter provided a link to some examples, besides his explanation [which i find very interesting, by the way - Thanks Peter]. You on the other hand did not - you just HAD to say something. Something that included, as usually, an ad hominem attack. Who should shut up then?

 

Pro Secundo - antishake/handholdability and 'in-focus shot' have nothing to do with each other, i wonder if you've just made a mistake there - twice - or you really don't know what is the difference between motion blur and out-of-focus blur.

 

And finally - 'Of course, instead of using a slower shutter speed, you can also use a smaller aperture then you normally use.' Do you really think this is alright or are you just making fun of the question? If the former, i suggest you to think about it a bit longer before you start to fill up this thread as well.

 

With all the respect, I would suggest you to read a bit more instead of writing.

Ron,

 

Aside of the AS feature, there's a trick you can do in critical cases to get a sharper shot less affected by camera shake. Take a triplet [or more] of the shot with one single press of the exposure button - in these cases the second or third shot will usually be much sharper than the first one. Even fiwh film it's worthy to do it, if you really want a good frame; with digital, it's free.

Csab- Just for you, I'll take back my use of 'in-focus', as it does not alter the contention of my post. However, the rest of my post stands. As I see it, it would be very easy for Ron to go down to a camera store that stocks some KM equipment and actually test the camera and lens by himself. He may need to take a memory card to insert into the body, or take his 300mm lens, but any good camera shop would gladly allow someone to take a few shots in the store and compare them. With digital, Ron doesn't even need to print out the results, just stick the memory card into a card reader.

Thanks guys for the ,er,'mixed' responses :)

<P>Just to clarify...

<P>I do indeed know about the 'several stops extra handholdability'. What i need is to find out for sure if it does provide those extra stops at longer focal lengths.This has certainly not been proven so far,and indeed these is a fair bit of evidence saying that AS provides only 1 stop of extra handholdability at 500mm-maybe less(!).(that was an estimate by a respected online reviewer-it may have been dpreview but i cant rememeber)

 

<BR>The suggestion that i try one in a shop is possible but i'll leave that as a last resort.They don't like people shooting off 30+ frames with a new camera then walking out with buying anything....

 

<P>Csab' ,thanks for that suggestion! That is indeed a very usefull technique but i allready use it .

<BR>More people should know about it! :)

 

<P>By the way Clinton,the others are right.You are rude

Ron- You'd be shooting digital, so who cares how amny shots you fire off? Just bring your own memory card. (You should see what the sales people do with the equipment. Just ask them how many frames per second the camera will fire, then watch them fire off 50 shots.) And your contention that AS only gives you a 1-stop improvement, does that also apply that to VR and IS? Or, is it only a KM thing? Either way, the lesser amount of correction is probably due to the heavier weight of a longer lens which causes greater amounts of shake. Try holding a camera with a 24mm lens, and then mount a 300mm to the body. As I said in my earlier post, it sounds like you expect miracles from AS/IS/VR. You'll probably get upset when one time you can handhold a 300mm at 1/60 sec. and then another time, with the same lighting condition, you can only handhold at 1/125 sec. The biggest factor in how much correction you get, is the photographer. Any correction is better than none, and the KM system, soon to be Sony's, is a lot cheaper than any other system.

 

As for me being 'rude', I try my best. If you don't like it, tuff donuts. It's not like I don't have some truth to my posts. And would you rather everyone be nice like P.B., but who is verbose, wasting so much space with nothing to say.

Ron,

regarding your original question, I have seen a number of posts on dpreview with sharp handheld shots made at shutter speeds 2 and 3 stops slower than using 300, 400, and 600 mm lenses with and without TCs. But since there are no standardized test methods the message threads usually include at least one critical post pointing out why the conclusion is invalid. I have read a number of reviews where the reviewer pontificates on why it is physically impossible for AS to be as good as IS or VR at long focal lengths. I remember back when I was in school reading the historical aero engineering explanation why bumble bees can't fly and the civil engineering explanation why strapless bras can't work. However all of the 'tests' I have seen proving that have been on moderate length lenses (135mm) or extrapolate from 50mm lenses.

 

Without a standard test method, any results will always be debated. I saw one non-believer in my local photo store state that he didn't belive that AS could work as well as IS and then proceed to shake a 7D like a can of paint to prove his point. I one person trys a 600mm IS lens on a Canon and a 600mm lens on the 7D, will the second lens experience more shake because the tester is shaking more from the exertion? The big advantage that in lens stabilization has is a stable image in the VF. That can provide feedback to the user. I assume the IS/VR user won't release the shutter until the image stabilizes. The AS user is going to see the image bounce around even when stabilization has occurred and so won't know the best time to release the shutter (I know about the bars, but that's not the same as watching the image).

 

Tom

Ron,

 

Forgive me, but I am not sure if you are comparing AS to a VR/IS system, or if you are looking to see if it simply adds value. If you want to see if it works at 500mm, allow me to suggest a testing procedure (like Tom just said, the results will be debated, and you will be told that what you found was an illusion, especially if you post it on the Digital Camera forum, but it will let you get some ideas about what to expect):

 

Gtab a 7D and a 500mm lens. Set the shutter speed to 1/750 (1/focal length for 500mm x 1.5) So whatever you need to do to get that shutter speed, including going outside, etc.

 

Turn AS off and squeeze off ONE shot. (Assume that Csabs suggestion works because it does, and you only want to test AS, not other stabilization techniques that will confuse your results)

 

Open the aperture a half stop, adjust the shutter speed to 1/500 and take another shot. Turn AS om and use the same camera settings to take another shot.

 

Turn AS off, and repeat the step above after slowing the shutter speed down a half stop. Do this until you are shooting at 1/125 or so. Heck, you might even want to go to 1/60.

 

Now, what you have is a reference shot at the recommended 1/focal length without AS, and a series of shots at slower shutter speeds with AS that you can compare to the reference and to its counterpart without AS.

 

I am looking forward to seeing what you get. I would be shocked if you only got a stop. I would also like to see the source of that <1 stop comment if you can find it. I have been very surprised by the immense skepticism and hostility from sales people and pros toward KM since the 7D cane out.

 

chad

AHHHH,i finally found that webpage i was talking about.This should give a good idea of what i'm wanting.Like chad suggests but the idea is to take a bunch of shots at each setting to get a good,reliable idea of whats happening.

<P>http://www.aliasimages.com/KM7D_AS_Test.htm

<P>No-it's not absolutally ideal because it's someone else using the camera.And yes- there is potential for errors .

<BR>However it's by far the best method i've seen or heard of.

 

<P>Interestingly i did ask this very same question in this forum about 6 months ago.The responses i got that time included quite a few technical comments on how and why A-S may not work as well at longer focal lengths.Most respondents (many of them minolta users) had heard the same thing and even gave some links .I'll see what i can dig up....

Thanks Ron for the link. It has a good example of noise comparison at iso100 and 1600, too.

<P>I might have to do some searching over at dpreview forums (involentarily shudder) as they are often talking about such things .If you don't hear from me again you know what happened ;);)

Looks like it works, even at the 1/focal length speed.

 

Chad