student looking for MF for street photo, suggestions?

This forum is a great idea, I thank the creators of it!!

I have had a hard time finding much info on medium format cameras,

especially Bronica. I have looked through the old discussions for

answers but need some more specific ones. I would be EXTREMELY

grateful for any advice anyone can give on my dilemma. Looking for a camera with these characteristics;

 

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SLR

interchangeable backs

6x6 neg (I think 6x4.5 is too small, 6x7 too big)

Small as possible (maybe I am dreaming)

waist level finder (I'll use a hand held meter)

decent selection of good quality lenses

budget of $2500-$3000 (definetly used equipment)

 

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I have been told Bronica s2a or sqa but really don't know the

differneces, I asked Bronica for info on them but didn't get anything

useful. Does Mamiya make a square? Hasselblad make something

affordable?

Is this at all possible, I am loosing hope,

 

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Thanks for your time

 

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Nathaniel

Nathaniel,

The Bronica S2A is a very old camera, no real support, or effective repair. Definitely do not buy this model. The SQAi is the current Bronica 6x6 and merits consideration IF you can try it out, run film and are satisfied with the results.

You mention that you are a student. Hasselblad is currently offering a $1000. rebate to full-time university level photography students.

That means that if you qualify you can own a NEW Hasselblad 501C outfit: body, 80mm lens and back for $1595. If you decide to go the Bronica route, you can get a 50% student discount from retail price with student credentials.

Go for the gold. Choose a dealer who will let you rent the camera or run a roll of film. It's a lot of money to spend and you deserve to get a good camera.

Peace,

Myron

Nathaniel,

 

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You've received some good advice with respect to Hasselblad and Bronica. If you want to find out more about Bronica, look on <a href="http://www.tamron.com">Tamron</a>'s web site. You're best off buying a new current camera, since then you can be sure of a good supply of newish used lenses and accessories.

 

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As for Hasselblad/Bronica, you may get some great starter deals with Hasselblad, but in the long run the system costs are going to kill you. If you are using this stuff professionally, Hassleblad is great 'cos everything retains its (high) value over a long period of time. For an amateur or student the down side is that you can't get good cheap used lenses.

 

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Bronica make fine cameras. I'd go for an SQAi over an SQB if I were you, as the Ai kit gives you the 'full' versions of the standard lens and back (the SQB has cut down versions of all elements). The real downside of Bronica however is that you may find it difficult to rent lenses.

 

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Other things to look at are the rangefinders - the Fuji autofocus 645, or the Mamiya 6 or 7. With a rangefinder you would be giving up flexability but gaining convenience. The Mamiyas are expensive and don't focus close, the newer Fujis have fixed lenses.

 

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You may also wish to reconsider your chosen format. Do you want to shoot square all the time, or are you going to end up cropping? If you went for 645, something like the Mamiya would give you a small, portable camera with a large selection of fast and inexpensive lenses.

 

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Have fun choosing.

Another option for a 6x6 SLR is a Kowa system. The Kowa Super 66

has interchangable backs, a set of 4 finders (waist level, waist level with metering, 45 degree and 90 degree, one of the last two is also metered.) There are several lenses available, as well as extra backs, etc.

 

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The biggest plus to this camera is low cost. It should be available used, with a std lens and back, for around $500. Another $1000 will get you 2-3 more lenses. Way less than anything new. Also, all the

lenses have leaf shutters, so unless you want to shoot at 1/1000 or faster (which they can't do), they have flash synch at ALL speeds.

 

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The minuses are that it is no longer made, so you have to look around for it. The mechanicals are a bit quirky (but then so are Hassie's, in different ways.) They are fairly well represented in the used

marketplace. Check out Impact!, at:

 

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http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~jalbro/impact/used.html

 

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for a pretty long list of used dealers with web sites. Finally,

on the Super 66, mirror lock-up is only available via the self-timer.

The 6MM (?) has mirror lock-up, but doesn't have removable backs. But

since the 6MM body costs less than a hasselblad back alone, this isn't

a tremendous problem.

 

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And of course, many will claim that the optics aren't as great

as Hasselblads, or the other top end MF systems. But some will

say that you can't see the difference. I don't know, having

never owned a Kowa system. But if I had to get a MF SLR on a budget,

I'd probably end up with a Super 66 or 6MM.

 

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Regards,

If you (or anyone) are looking for a very nice Kowa 6; I have one for sale. This model does not have the interchangable backs, but takes either 120 or 220 film. In mint- condition with waist level finder, 85mm f2.8 lens, original neck strap and owners manual. $350. contact Bob at kabob@tiac.net

Nathaniel

 

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If you're a full-time photography student, know that you are eligible to purchase Mamiya cameras under its PEPP scheme at substantial discounts. Many Mamiya dealers keep mum about this scheme so you'll have to ask them about PEPP prices. The Mamiya 645 Pro TL which sells for about US$1599 at B&H, is sold to students at US$1139 under the PEPP scheme. Find out from Mamiya whether you qualify. Cheers... Razzy.

 

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P.S. I won't recommend the Hasselblad 501C. If I'm not wrong, the 80mm lens is fixed to the camera body i.e. it is not removable nor interchangeable. You'll want to find out if this is true.

Soory, Razzy, you are VERY wrong about the 501! It has the standard Hassy lens mount and accepts all and any Hassy lenses with leaf shutters and any accessories except winders or dedicated strobes. It is one way of getting into the system without spending too much. Another way, of course, is a nice, used 500 C/M. Beware of the older F (focal plane) models, though!

 

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Regards

 

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Per

Dear Pers

 

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Don't mean to sound peevish but I think in this case you are the one who's VERY VERY wrong about the 501C, an entry level model with a fixed-to-body 80mm lens. That's why it's cheap for a Hassy. There ain't no free lunch, pal. Check out the latest Hasselblad catalogue. And be careful with future pronouncements....Cheers....razzy

>Don't mean to sound peevish but I think in this case you are the one

>who's VERY VERY wrong about the 501C, an entry level model with a

>fixed-to-body 80mm lens. That's why it's cheap for a Hassy. There

>ain't no free lunch, pal. Check out the latest Hasselblad catalogue.

 

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Razzy,

 

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I just use a 500C, but I _have_ changed the lenses on a demo 501C at

the local Wolf. I won't expect you to accept my experience as

evidence though, so here it is from the 501C brochure:

 

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"LENS: Planar C f2.8/80mm T* Lens. Also available are 15

interchangeable Carl Zeiss CF and C lenses from 30mm to 500mm

and Tele Converter 2XE.

 

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"System compatibility: The 501C accepts all current CF lenses and

C lenses, film magazines, viewfinders, focusing screens and most

other accessories made for the 500 series camera models."

 

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Details on the 501CM (most current incarnation of the 500C?) are

also available at http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/default.htm

 

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>And be careful with future pronouncements....Cheers....razzy

 

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One could give the same advice to you...

 

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With regard to the original question:

 

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>I have been told Bronica s2a or sqa but really don't know the

>differneces, I asked Bronica for info on them but didn't get anything

>useful. Does Mamiya make a square? Hasselblad make something

>affordable? Is this at all possible, I am loosing hope,

 

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My business partner (I'm a portrait/wedding photographer) has an old

S2 and an S2a. They're kind of neat (esp like the focusing on the S2)

but we've been having problems with them -- can't get the S2a to cock

its own shutter, currently. The lenses on them are supposed to be

pretty nice though, even if parts are scarce.

 

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If you're considering Bronica, look at the SQ series of cameras.

My partner uses them (and has for years), and while the lenses

aren't Zeiss, they're certainly good. (Watch that comment

get some flames). Just make sure that you buy the lenses from the

current line! I'm not aware that Mamiya has ever made a square

SLR.

 

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_Do_ consider Hasselblad -- they're expensive, but you're buying

into a system that is "more than good enough" for whatever kinds

of photography you're thinking about getting into (no flames

from the view camera guys, please.) You can buy a used 500C

system with the old '12' series back for $900 if you shop around

some. Age doesn't matter a whole lot with these cameras if they've

been maintained.

 

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There's something to be said for using a camera that's known for its

reliability and optics. If nothing else, there's one less thing to

go wrong, and one less thing to blame when the results aren't what

you expected. Other perks: it's easy to rent equipment (want to

play with a 30mm lens for a special assignment?), there are a number

of repair guys who are actually _good_ with Hasselblad equipment (the

exact opposite of my experience with Bronica gear), the 30-year-old

equipment is still very acceptable (or identical to current lenses

with the exception of singlecoating instead of multicoating), etc.

 

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I opted for the Hasselblad after a few years experience with Bronica,

which never impressed me with the quality of its lenses _or_ its

reliability (note: my partner has had the exact opposite experience

with reliability, so YMMV). I decided what I wanted by going to the

local rental shop and playing with _everything_ in the store. I

expected to like the Mamiya 7 (felt too much like a toy) and the

Rollei 6008i (full of features but just uncomfortable to hold) the

best, but decided to go with the Hasselblad for personal reasons

everything seems to be where it's supposed to be, build quality is

impressive, love the focusing screen/finder, ...)The best way

to make the decision for yourself would be to do the same. As an

aside, I believe you can buy a used Rollei 6006 outfit for about the

same price as a used 500C outfit. Advantage is availability of

(expensive) fast Schneider glass in addition to the Zeiss stuff (see

the review on photo.net).

 

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But ignore cost as much as you can. You can buy used for cheap, but

take it to a repair shop and have them check it out before you get out

of the inspection period. If you're going to be making any money with

the camera you buy, it really does make sense to buy well. And if all

you can afford or justify is one lens right now, then that's fine.

You can shoot an almost unlimited number of weddings with one lens

("how many weddings would I need to shoot to pay for that nice new

180mm lens..."), or rent what you need to shoot. Around here a 40mm

Zeiss lens is $35 per day, a 50mm is $25. Cheap enough until you can

afford to buy your own. (BTW, the local rental shop carried ETR and

GS-1 equipment, but you can't rent Bronica SQ lenses. Don't know

about availability other places...)

 

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Good luck, and make the decision that makes the most sense for _you_.

Razzy & Nathaniel,

 

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Razzy, you must have the 501C confused with the SWC body... this stands for the Super Wide C body which has a 38mm lens permanently mounted on the body. I believe this is the ONLY fixed lens-to-body Hasselblad makes! The body of the SWC had been shortened to obtain the maximum benefit of the ultra-wide 38mm body without edge distortion. The shortened body is why the SWC has a permanently attached lens; you can't use the body with any other lens. The 501C, for all intents and purposes, is a modern version of the 500C/M. I have a 500C/M and looked at the 501C brochure one day and could find no discernable difference in features and capability. The 500 series bodies accepts ALL Hasselblad C and CF lenses. They do not, however, accept the F or FE lenses that were designed for use with the 200 series bodies. The reason the 501C is considered to be an entry level camera is because it is a fully manual body without any frills, such as a gliding mirror system and TTL flash metering, as with the 501CM, and cannot be adapted, at least with H'blad brand accessories, with a motor drive as the 503CW; that's why the 501C is less expensive than the other Hassy bodies. Per is absolutely correct in his posting and Razzy is dead wrong! If I were you Nathaniel, I wouldn't listen to a thing Razzy says about Hasselblads. Razzy is on some kind of ego trip and obviously has no clue what a Hasselblad is! *LOL* Anyhow, maybe you should re-look the 645 cameras. I say this because more than likely you're used to a rectangle format. With a 6x6 camera, you're forced into a square format. Unless you have marked your focusing screen to look like an 8x10 or rectangle, you're probably gonna shoot something that would run off or not show up on an "ideal format". Therefore, you're actually using 6x4.5 cm off of a 6x6 cm negative anyway. I'm telling you this because I wish I would've gone to the 645 instead. 645 cameras are MUCH more automated, less expensive, and easier to use than the 6x6 cameras. Currently, I'm looking at the Mamiya and the Pentax 645s and haven't really worked up a real good opinion except that if I were to buy today I would probably get the Mamiya Pro because of the interchangeable backs. If you insist on 6x6, then the Bronica is an easier handling camera than the Hasselblad is and the accessories are MUCH less expensive. I know lots of freelance photographers who use the Bronica system with great success and swears by it. A Hasselblad 500C/M basic outfit with A12 back, 80C lens, and waistlevel would run about $1400 - $1800 depending on condition. If you get the old chrome C lenses, the same ones Ansel Adams used, most of them run from $900 to $1400 depending on where you shop. KEH prices are a bit high but you get the insurance that you're not getting screwed! :o) If you decide on the H'blad, get a clean 500C or C/M to start out with and upgrade later to a newer system. I might go to the 503CW next if I decide not to go to 645. I'm suspicious of the 501Cs due to the high instance of reported failures and would not advise getting them... I think H'blad discontinued them, replacing them with the 500C/M.

Hope this helps!!!

 

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Ken

*waiting for Razzy's infantile rebuttal*

Ken has made some good points. Let me point out a couple of things that I like about 6x6. Actually, the whole 6x6 vs 645 debate is pretty silly, it boils down to individual preference. The important thing to remember is that if you're making "traditional" shape prints (8x10, 11x14, etc) the actual size of the negative that you're using is the same in both formats, since you crop off some of the 6x6. You said that your concern with 645 is that the negative is too small, but if you're going to print in rectangles, the 6x6 negative actually used is no larger than 645.

 

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645 cameras are the most like 35mm in terms of handling and features, and you don't have to worry about cropping in the viewfinder to fit the rectangle. On the other hand, with 6x6 you never have to turn the camera or flip the flash bracket. I've marked my viewfinder with thin dotted lines (you can buy the tape with the lines in art supply stores) for either a horizontal or vertical crop; the tape isn't a distraction and works well.

 

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Some people say that with a 6x6 you can take a picture and decide on vertical or horizontal later, but I haven't found that to be the case too often -- I really need to know what I'm taking when I take it.

 

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Finally, some people really get to like a square composition. I have some square shots that I think work very well; other times I crop. I like having the option -- but when I pick up my 35mm, it's very hard to look through the rectangular viewfinder and say "I think I'll take a square shot and crop it down".

 

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There is no right or wrong, it's whatever you're comfortable with. Can you can rent or borrow some different cameras to find what feels right for you? Unfortunately, making the wrong choice for you is an expensive way to learn what you like.

 

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(Oh, and Razzy is definitely wrong about the 501C.)

Dear Nathaniel;

re your question of a good medium format camera for a student:

Years ago when I was a student I bought a Yashicamat for about $100.00 US. If you have never seen one, this is a box shaped camera with two lenses, one over the other. The top lens is what you use to focus and the bottom lens takes the picture. It is kind of complicated to describe it's use but easy to learn; there are lots of used Yashicamats on the market. Go to a camera store where they have used gear and have a look at a Yashica or a Rollieflex (more expensive but better).

I really liked the Rollie and the Yashica for street photography because they had a special viewfinder that you looked down into rather than holding the camera up to your eye in order to focus. I was able to take pictures in the street and most people did not notice that I was photographing! Today I own a Hasselblad which is supposed to be one of the the best cameras in MF but I have to tell you that frequently with negatives or transparencies you cannot tell the difference. I traded in the Rollieflex to buy the Hasselblad but wish I had been able to keep them both.

Most twin lens cameras are limited to a lens of 80 or 75mm (roughly the same as 50mm on a 35 camera) but, for the cost, a twin lens reflex camera is, in my opinion, the best bargain in medium format.

regards,

stefan

ps: avoid the Pearl River Twin Reflex Camera. I had one and it was awful.

For street photography, you can't beat a folding camera, like a Zeiss

Ikonta-A. You have to preset focus, but if the lens standard is rigid

enough, you can press a button, out pops the lens, click, then fold it

back up again. Very candid.

For $2500 to $3000 you can practically get anything you want on the

used market. However for street photography I would recommend a twin

lens reflex (TLR) such as a Rolleiflex or Yashica simply because you

can focus very fast with it. I have a Yashica 124G as well as a

Hassy 500 C/M with an Accumat screen, and in my opinion the Yashica

handles better in a "decisive moment" environment. With the TLR I

can focus accurately with my eyes far away from the screen, literally

at waist level, and the image snaps in focus. The Hassy on the other

hand is more precise and require more patience to get the focus

correct. For me at least, my eye need to be glued on to the Hassy WL

finder for accurate focusing. You can purchase a mint condition

Yashica 124G for around $300; while it does not have a interchangable

back, they are so relatively inexpensive you can buy two or three and

load them with different films if you want. A Hassy A-12 back alone

costs more than that! If you like the Yashica you can blow the rest

of your budget on the 2.8GX in the future. There are many threads on

this forum regarding the Yashica 124G. Good luck.