Before you buy a large format printer

<p>This is Post #2 on the same topic. I want to warn anyone considering purchase of a large format printer to be aware of the nozzle clogging problems. Mine is an Epson Pro 4000, but these comments refer to new printers, not just my older model. Check printing forums, google the issue, and you will see what you are in for.<br>

<br />Epson and Canon wide-format printers, especially the "pro" models, have print head clogging problems. And these are serious problems. Epson Pro- printers, with which I am most painfully familiar, have a serious issue. The consequences of a print head clogging are extremely annoying, time-consuming, and expensive. <br>

The worst case is when the print head needs to be replaced. The printers are large and heavy; it is not easy to just pick them up and bring them into a service place. You better be close to one. Print head replacement costs several hundred dollars. <br>

<br />Cleaning a moderately clogged print head may require a couple hours and a lot of ink. Plan on it. <br>

Cleaning a badly clogged print head may require several days of work, and lots of automatic head cleaning. You need to do the research to find out how to do it. Magenta clogs frequently because of its formulation. After spending three days doing a major cleaning, the magenta clogged again even though I have been printing every day. (My room is dry in the winter; I suspect that is the issue.) <br>

From reading the various forums, I think Canon printers are no better. When you read the forums you will find several people who have had no problems, and just love their printers. Don't be misled. That is anecdotal evidence, an expected response. But many, many more, probably the majority, do have problems. Valid statistics are unavailable, for obvious reasons. <br>

If I cannot give away my Epson Pro 4000, it goes to the dump. Over $4000 is going to the dump, plus several nearly full 220ml ink cartridges, 200 pages of new paper, and a half a 100 foot roll of 16" paper. <br>

<br />This is not an over-emotional rant. It states the facts. </p>

 

<p>Before taking your printer to the dump, try flushing it and selling it to someone who might use it more frequently. Art Entlich has worked out methods for cleaning these beasts, and I've adapted his methods specifically for the SP4000. See here:</p>

<p>http://www.graphic-fusion.com/sp4000.htm</p>

<p>And if I were you, even if you feel strongly about throwing away the printer, I'd sell or give away the paper and ink. Someone can (and will) use it. You could offer your supplies right here, in this thread, free to anyone willing to pay the postage. (I hate to see things wasted.)</p>

<p>Thanks Robert. I was just about to change, upgrade my 2200 printer, at the moment printing nice without any clogging problem, even when after I not printing for a couple of moths, an I live in the 16th floor, a building in Toronto, which is very dry in the winter. Starting printing after a longer period, I, or the printer need several cleaning run, so far I managed to get started and print perfectly. -Recently I printing every day or every second day, at list, one or two prints. The real reason to think about upgrade, is, I my run out of ink and supply availability. Scared after read your forum posting, and seeing one of my friend, living very close to me, actually in the same floor, who didn't used his Epson 2200 printer for a long time and was unable to run again, give it a way to somebody. The question is, do the smaller then the 4000 printer, like the 3800, having the same problem, with different ink chemistry, smaller ink cartridges or other variables can effect the printer of this size?</p>

<p>I've had my 2200 for about 12 years, and most of the problems have been caused by neglect and non-use. The worst case happened when we moved from Arizona to Tennessee in 2005, when the 2200 was in storage for over six weeks. Worse, it was stored on its side (thanks, moving guys.) When I got it back and tried to run it, I thought it was toast - not a drop of ink to be seen. I remembered Epson's instructions for installing new inks, so I removed each cartridge, shook it gently, replaced it and ran several alternating nozzle check/cleaning sequences. It worked, and still does, almost 15 years later. I got into the habit of running almost daily nozzle checks, especially on non-printing days. We've since moved back to Arizona, and I try to be especially conscientious in this drier climate.</p>

<p>Robert, I don't know if this applies to the 4900, but it seems like it would be worth a try. What do you have to lose?</p>

<p>I'd really like to graduate to a larger format printer, like the 3880, but I'm still trying to decide if the upgrade would be worth the cost...</p>

<p>Not to change the subject but I wonder if most people who buy large format printers would not be better off (money wise) using outsourcing for their prints. I have a friend who uses Costco and he gets remarkable results for very little money. </p>

<p>When I need a large print I use a local custom lab but I honestly don't think they do a much better job than Costco in the sizes available. </p>

<p>Thanks for the positive comments on a very negative subject. IF you print every day, at least a few prints, you will probably be OK. But can you print every day? Do you go away on weekends or on vacations? Rick M was correct: it is better to outsource most printing. My point is: before you buy a large, professional printer, know what you are getting into. Be forewarned about the clogging problem. Don't decide on anecdotal evidence (that guy in the forum had no problem so....., my friend says...., I read reviews that said.....,) Decide on how much you are really going to use a large-format printer. </p>

<p>Large format printer or outsource - that is the question, really. Even normal maintenance can be time consuming at some level, and only the printer user can decide if it's all worth the overall effort. Right now, I'm basically just doing local art shows and on-line stuff, and the 13X19 format seems to fit those venues pretty well. I'm working on getting into one of the local galleries, and if that happens, I'll have to start seriously looking at larger print sizes. I'm starting to look at Costco, as well as our local PNet CanvasPop service, to do a couple of trial runs...</p>

<p>Wow.... Seriously? No one's gonna say it? How about using a cleaning kit?<br>

I used to be an occasional printer... many years ago. The last printer I used was an Epson 1280, I believe. But even before I started printing with it I knew the clogging problem all too well. Luckily I came across a cleaning kit. Whenever the test print showed some bad clogging I just went straight to using the kit instead of wasting gallons of ink on the cleaning cycles. It was a very straightforward procedure which took 10 minutes at the most. I even remember restoring a printer to full operation after about a year of not using it... in 15 minutes. Prior to cleaning, the test print showed no lines at all. The head was clogged up and dried out. After using the kit I had to do 1 or 2 cleaning cycles.<br>

This was such a long time ago, I couldn't for the life of me remember the brand of the cleaning kit I was using. I do remember that there was a solution and some sponges. A quick search on ebay returns quite a selection:<br>

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xprinter+cleaning+kit&_nkw=printer+cleaning+kit&_sacat=0<br>

Ask around and be careful. I'm sure there's bad stuff too. The one I've been using was a 5 star product (IMO). Worked like a charm.<br>

<br />I'm surprised no one here has mentioned anything of this sort. Manually cleaning an inkjet printer head is like Printing 101.</p>

<p>Clogging is a fact of life for pigment printers. What other commercial item demands that you completely flush it before you use it if you've left it for a couple of days? Would you put up with that with your car? Of course not. Ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that people not only put up with it, they stick up for it. It must be Stockholm Syndrome or something</p>

<p>After a series of horrors with Epson I switched to Canon dye printers and haven't had a single problem. That is the way a product SHOULD work. My most recent is the Pro-100, and it's a lovely printer, never a problem.</p>

If you haven't read the original thread from two weeks ago, please read it now.

 

http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00d3Sx

 

As I and several others commented, clogging is not a problem with all Epson models. Many infrequent users have no

problems with the 3800 and 3880 models. Progress has been made in printer reliability.

<p>It seems like this is a re-tread of that earlier thread. There's good information on that thread.</p>

<p><em>"Don't decide on anecdotal evidence (that guy in the forum had no problem so....."</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

<em><br /></em>But isn't all this just anecdotal evidence from the other side of the coin? If you tell me that you have clogging problems then to me you become that guy in the forum, in other words anecdotal. If we get 20 people reporting clogs and 20 reporting no clogs it's an anecdotal tie. So you might as well flip a coin.<br>

<br>

There does seem to be some evidence (anecdotal) to support some printer models being <strong>more</strong> susceptible to clogging than others. Conversely there appears to be some evidence (anecdotal) to support some printer models being <strong>less</strong> susceptible to clogging than others.<br>

<br>

What there doesn't seem to be a great deal of evidence for (anecdotal or otherwise) is a blanket statement that the majority of large format printers clog. Had I been advised and taken heed of such a statement seven or eight years ago when I bought my Epson 3800 I would not have printed and sold the thousands of prints that it has produced over the years. Has it clogged ever? Yes at times, but surely the mere provision of a cleaning procedure in the software is recognition that this can happen and maybe 90% (hmmm, anecdotal) of the time will be all that's needed. My printer doesn't get used daily, sometimes not weekly and currently hasn't been used for some months. Nor does it get left powered on. Will it be clogged? Maybe, but also maybe not, I've left it sitting for months before and it works without a clog straight away. Other times I can be using it nearly every day and all of a sudden a clog appears, out of the blue (or should I say cyan?). A sensible thing to do is just run a nozzle check before doing a print run to check for a problem.<br>

<br>

This of course doesn't help those (incl the OP) who have one of the printers for which anecdotal evidence seems to suggest there is something more than anecdotally wrong with the machine. Neither does anecdotal or test verified evidence of trouble with such a machine give cause for a blanket warning to apply to all large format printers. The trouble is that trouble, i.e. clogging, is a lot more likely to have resonance with people than no trouble. Trouble obviously is a lot more of a problem than no problem. As has been said many times in threads on this theme, people with no problems are not very likely to report same, so doing a search for clogging troubles is going to find clogging troubles rather than flawless performance none of which is statistically reliable. Maybe Epson might have data on how many models they've sold and how many have proved clog prone but I'll bet they're not telling. So it's back to anecdote.<br>

<br>

Personally I'd have probably flung the OP's printer out of the window by now if I were experiencing the ongoing trouble described, but I'd then go on to get a 3880 (with my fingers crossed).</p>

<p>Mac Hordam was absolutely correct: the evidence on clogging or not clogging is all anecdotal. My point is that there are so many people who have had clogging issues, that everyone should be forewarned before they decide to get a large format printer. Especially one that requires eight $100 ink cartridges. </p>

<p>Perhaps Mac was fortunate to have bought a 3880 printer that did not clog. Several people have mentioned that particular printer as being clog-free. But others have had problems. <br>

<br />There are no valid statistics on clogging. But it is a fact that lots of people have had clogs, even with Cannon printers (with which I have no experience except reading forums, and one friend with one, and his clogs.)</p>

<p>Also... My daughter has larger prints made by Adorama. They come back AOK, and are inexpensive. I will use my Epson Pro 4000 for another set of inks until I find a suitable alternative. </p>

I have only owned one of the higher end epson printers, and I sold it due to the fact that it didn't get used very much since

I often needed prints larger than the printer was capable of, so the head did clog a few times. Since then, I have had all

of my printing done locally.

 

Just a thought though, wouldn't it help to keep the heads clean if you just made a small print, maybe a 4x5" that uses

each of the inks once every few days? I would think that would keep fresh ink in the nozzles and not use very much ink

at all, I would presume much less than a head cleaning session. I know that storage is a different story, but for periodic

use, this might help.

<p>Benoit: <br>

Well, I printed almost 100 large images over several days. Two days later I tried to print one page, 8 1/2 x 11, and the head was clogged. It required several head cleaning cycles. I then printed one page every day for 5 days. On the 6th day the head was clogged. Some clogs cannot be cleared with normal head cleaning, and even exceptional efforts. I am not sure I mentioned Ed Entlcih by name, but Sarah Fox mentioned her efforts with a link to her website. Previously I soaked the head in Windex+alcohol solution for 3 days. It helped. But there are ways to run cleaning solution through the head, again requiring an $200+ expense for the equipment; it is reusable. Again, some clogs may require replacing the print head. </p>

<p><em>"Perhaps Mac was fortunate to have bought a 3880 printer that did not clog."</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

Nope, I do have a 3880, but I was referring to my 3800 which doesn't have quite the glowing record of the later model.<br>

<em> </em><br>

<em>"seven or eight years ago when I bought my Epson 3800......... Has it clogged ever? Yes at times"</em></p>

<p>It did develop a tendency at one time to deposit splodges of ink randomly on the paper completely ruining the print. It seemed to grow out of that, conveniently just after I bought the 3880 as a back up. Anecdotally I've heard suspicions that Epson can do that to a printer with firmware updates, <strong>how they then implanted the desire in me to purchase another one I think is just a little spookier</strong>. But true 'cause Nikon can do it too.</p>

<p><em>"........lots of people have had clogs, even with Cannon printers"</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

I hear that with those you can just light the fuse and it'll blow the clog to oblivion. And you then have a convenient hole in the wall through which to throw the Epson. :-)<br>

<em> </em></p>

<p>Ouch. I meant to direct that last response to Nathan Craver. Sorry Nathan. Thanks for your response.</p>

<p>My own particular experience with an Epson 4000 and now a 7800 are that I only have problems when I let them set for months. Then a couple of cleanings later all is well. Ink has to be formulated to dry quickly. Otherwise, we be complaining about how messy our prints were. Like Mac, I'd guess that you just don't hear about all the large format printers that are just working. Those folks are happy, busy, and know what's working for them.</p>

<p>I believe Epson 4000 was introduced in 2003, so it is 12 years old.<br>

My Epson 4800 working O.K., I run nozzle check before printing, sometimes have to run cleaning cycle, in 5 years had to run power-cleaning twice. I print 3-4 prints every second month (I am working month on month off, away from home).</p>

 

<p>You also have to wonder how many of those anecdotal problems involved the use of third-party inks...</p>

<p>I have owned 4 epson printers and although they made great prints all of them went into the rubbish bin, they all clogged and it did not take long. I had a similar problem with two canon printers but only after many years of use. My current printer is an HP photosmart B8550 printer it has run out of ink and staid unused for weeks on end and always starts right back up with new ink. My older small HP printer did the same so I will now use nothing else and would never use an Epson again they are just too much trouble</p>

<p>The HP9180 (13 inch width paper) and its brethren have a regular head cleaning operation if you don't print regularly. The trouble is it does use ink. Don't know about he Epson and Canon printers but they also probably have a regular automated head cleaning feature like the HP. </p>

<p>I've read some where online that printers like the Epson 3880 have ink dampers that contain a very fine screen (filter).<br>

It was suggested that these should be changed on a yearly basis to help prevent blockages. This is news to me, in the several years I've owned an 3880 have never changed the dampers, should I be worried? Has anyone changed theirs?<br>

I've had a couple blockages that cleared up with a cleaning cycle.<br>

These are what I'm talking about...<br>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ink-Damper-for-Epson-Stylus-PRO-3800-3850-3880-3890-DP10-/280932176108</p>

<p>You're charting new ground. I've never heard of anyone doing that. I had a 3800 and now have 3880</p>

<p>I should also add that I've seen "clogging" symptoms when in fact it was an air bubble that got into one or more of the ink lines. That's a different problem, and I'm not an expert, but may indicate that service is needed on the capping station. When that happens you lose most or all of the nozzles for a particular color at the same time. You may even be able to observe the bubble in the lines. A cleaning generally puts enough ink through the lines to remove the bubble.</p>