emily_jane_cartwright Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <p>Hello all,<br> I am a freelance portrait artist with a question regarding the use of official wedding photographs. I have done a couple of wedding portraits in the past using my own photo or a shot taken by a random family member, however I would like to do more of this type of work. As the best photos from a wedding are usually from the professional photographer these would be ideal to use as reference for drawings, however I realise that I can't just use a picture without at least seeking some form of approval from the owner. But this is where I am a bit stuck - I don't know what the law is here with regards to copyright, are the couple who buy the photos able to do with them what they like, including give them to an artist to have a piece of artwork made, or does that right remain with the photographer? <br> Basically I wanted to find out the correct way of using your photographs, as if I purchase a copy of the photo this will effect the price I charge my clients. Then again I know some people who simply want you to ask permission out of courtesy so...<br> Any thoughts gratefully received! Thanks.</p> <p>MODERATOR NOTE: Poster is located in United Kingdom </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce_rubenstein Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <p>Have the couple give you a print to work from. Return the print and sell them your picture. It's technically no different them having a mug made with their picture on it. Now, if you make pictures based on photo and sell them in a gallery, or you artwork is used for advertizing, that is commercial usage and a violation of the photographer's copyright, because you created a derivative work.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <blockquote> <p>"Have the couple give you a print to work from. Return the print and sell them your picture. It's technically no different them having a mug made with their picture on it."<br /><br /><br /></p> </blockquote> <p>If merely having a print as a guide meant one could copy works and resell them, everyone would be doing it and the copyright system would be pointless. What matters is whether the copyright was transferred to the user or if the license they were granted allowed such activities.</p> <blockquote> <p><br /><br />"if you make pictures based on photo and sell them in a gallery, or you artwork is used for advertizing, that is commercial usage and a violation of the photographer's copyright"</p> </blockquote> <p>While a sale or certain type of commercial use can affect the consequences for infringing, it is not. itself, the threshold of infringing use. An exception being if a license only granted non-sale and non-commercial use but that arises from private dealings that carved out such allowable uses. Another fractional excpetion being part of one of the four prongs of fair use. The latter not at issue here.</p> <blockquote> <p><br />because you created a derivative work.</p> </blockquote> <p>Derivative use analysis is not based on advertising or commercial use.<br /><br />With all due respect, Bruce is woefully misinformed about copyright and none of what was said was accurate. I suggest reading copyright.gov and the associated publications over relying on the sketchy internet forum provided notions on legal matters.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <p><blockquote>Have the couple give you a print to work from. Return the print and sell them your picture. It's technically no different them having a mug made with their picture on it.</p> </blockquote> <p>I agree that this is poor advice.</p> <p>However, <strong>copyright.gov </strong>seems to be a website which details copyright as applicable in the United States of America and because of your website link that you posted, it would be better to look up the laws as applicable in England.</p> <p>Notwithstanding that comment I agree with JH in so far as it depends what licence is provided to the B&G and who actually owns the Copyright - my point is there (might be / certainly used to be) slight nuanced differences apropos Wedding Portraiture concerning Copyright in the UK compared to the USA. If Lindsay Dobson reads this thread, in my opinion her advice will be most sound.</p> <br> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_s. Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <p>You need permission from the copyright owner of the photograph, not the owner of a photo (copy) or the person in the photo.<br /> Copyright as in right to copy :-)</p> <p>The couple who hired the photographer may have a right to use the images to make prints for personal use and use online etc. Or they may not. It depends on what they purchased from the photographer. Copyright owner is the photographer though.</p> <p>If you wanted to make a painting from a photo for commercial use you would also need permission from the persons in the photo.</p> <p>Check this for instance:<br> http://www.bipcnewcastle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Copyright-in-Photographs.pdf</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 <p>Pete's document would indicate that in this case, the US law that John H cites is essentially identical to the UK law for this specific instance. In the absence of a contract to the contrary, it would appear that John H's analysis is correct.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 <p>Pete's document does indeed do that. And it also supplies good source contacts. I suspect that Emily's question is answered. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 <p>If you look through this web site you will see that there have been at least a couple of lawsuits over artists creating paintings based on photos. One was a painting/poster of President Obama based on an AP news photo that was distinctive and captured by only one photographer. Another involved a non-distinctive photo of a public official at a news conference that was similar to what was probably shot by several photographers but nonetheless drew a lawsuit.<br /><br />IMHO, if you are working from a professional photographer's photo and you copy the pose, the lighting, the expression, the composition, the backdrop etc. in any substantial way, then you are in essence copying his/her work. If the client pays you maybe a few hundred of couple of thousand dollars for a 30x40 painting to hang on the wall, the photographer has potentially been cheated out of the sale of a similar size print. The customer might actually want a "real" painting. But there are some who are very happy with a photo that has been put through a "painter" program and printed on textured canvas. I'd say at the very least you need the photographer's permission and probably should be paying him something.<br /><br />If you are merely using the photo as a reference for what the person looks like or what the wedding gown looked like and your painting otherwise does not resemble the photo, you're probably playing fair and have no obligation. But there's a lot of gray area in between. Safest thing to do is shoot your own snapshot of the subject to work from or work from snapshots from the wedding, not the professional photos.<br /><br />I'm speaking here not necessarily as to what the law might be but just my own opinion as a photographer.<br /><br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 <blockquote> <p>If you look through this web site you will see that there have been at least a couple of lawsuits over artists creating paintings based on photos.</p> </blockquote> <p> <br> Are these examples based on UK law? </p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily_jane_cartwright Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 <p>Thanks everyone. <br> I think you are right Craig Shearman that is probably best to avoid working from the official photographs. Although I try to avoid making direct copies of photos because I don't enjoy working that way, sometimes that is what people want because they want a drawing rather than a photograph. But I definitely would not want to be seen as cheating a photographer out of a sale of a print, and because of this I have so far avoided using photos taken professionally. <br> However it is useful to find out what the copyright law is because I would like to have the option of approaching a photographer to use their image as reference, if the situation arose. And obviously I would want to make sure I paid the correct price for use of the image.<br> I did a degree in Illustration and we did cover copyright a little bit (not enough) - I came away feeling very confused and have never really got my head around it! It seems to me that the personable approach would be the best option - if the situation arose where I wanted to use an official photo, contacting the photographer in the first instance and having a conversation. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 <p>Easiest option would be to get an entry level SLR and take your own photos, posed the way you and the subjects prefer. Then take prints and use that to create your painting. No copyright issues to deal with. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 <p>Both of the cases I was referring to were U.S.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn_mertz Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 <p>You can also get written permission from the photographer. <br> They may charge a fee to license it to you, they could say no, they may allow you to do it without a fee.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Both of the cases I was referring to were U.S.</p> </blockquote> <br />Well it's been pointed out several times that the poster is in the UK. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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