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Bride wants more than she paid for


e_north

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<p>Would like some advice from some of you who may have had brides that want more than what they paid for. I think I know what my next steps should be, but I'd like to know if I missed something or should be aware of some legal issue here.<br /><br />I was asked to help a friend out with photographing a wedding, but now we're having some issues with the bride. I currently work for a portrait studio so most of my work is senior portraits, and I had never done a wedding before this one. However, I was very confident that this would be a great way for me to get some practice in as I would like to do some more wedding work in the future. My friend has been assisting a big photographer/videographer in DC, so she's not new to the wedding scene but this was her first time being in charge of the pics herself. We both felt confident in our ability to get this done professionally and were also excited by the outcome when it was all done. There were some things my friend and I decided that next time we would do differently, but otherwise things were fantastic. Bride and MOB seemed happy when we handed them the final product, but then fast forward a few months and now we're having some issues with the bride. I'll just bullet some of the key points here.</p>

<p>-My friend is related somewhat to the bride. I personally will never ever do weddings for a close(ish) friend or family. This is a step-cousin that my friend is not very close to, though, so she thought it would be ok.</p>

<p>-There was no contract. I told my friend this would be important but it just didn't happen and honestly, I thought it wouldn't matter given the way they seemed to like everything.</p>

<p>-The details of the agreement ARE DOCUMENTED via email and a physical list written down together in both the bride's and my friend's hand. This includes what we charged, what the final product would be, and what would be photographed.</p>

<p>-My friend charged $1200 for this, which included 8 hrs of both of us there and 300 edited hi-res photos on 2 discs. Given our area's going rates (not to mention my boss's, whose family-run business has been doing this for 40+ years), this is a really good deal, and I see it as my friend giving the "family discount/bridal gift" thing.</p>

<p>-We ended up giving her a few shy of 400 photos within the time frame discussed. Everything on her written list was photographed. There was one hiccup where one shot she wanted with her, her son, hubby, and her dad was NOT taken, but it was requested separately and in passing in a text to my friend. I tried to rectify that by manipulating some photos and after having a few people look they couldn't tell that I had essentially made 3 photos into one. We did ask at the time if there were others she wanted and she said no, so even she forgot she wanted that shot.</p>

<p>- We have been paid in full per the agreement.</p>

<p>The bride wasn't bad during the time we were there and everyone seemed very grateful that we were doing as much as we did. Since it was somewhat my friend's family, they were very helpful to tell us about shots they thought she might like, and everyone was having a great time so we got a lot of fantastic candid shots. In all honesty, we had too much trouble cutting it down to 300 because there were a lot of really good ones we we didn't want to throw away and some that were hilarious (but not seriously ones we would choose over the other good ones) so we added them in because we thought they might get a laugh out of them. As I said, we gave almost 100 more than we promised them. Now the bride is upset because she didn't get more.</p>

<p>The bride so far has complained to her mother (the one who ultimately paid us, actually) that firstly there weren't enough of this other cousin and his latest girlfriend dancing (we explained that they're kids, and it wasn't their wedding so we didn't focus on them), and that she didn't get to pick the ones she wanted (never part of our deal). She thought she would have more and so she is demanding more. The mother then relayed this to my friend via email, and also had the gall to tell my friend how she should run herself as a professional photographer in the future, something about never telling a customer how many photos will be taken or given and how we should have sat down with them before the wedding (which we did...and we have the original paper listing the photos we were to take).</p>

<p>So finally, I get down to my questions: Has anyone dealt with something like this, and if so, how did you handle it? Since we didn't have a contract but everything is written down in pieces that we can still prove our agreement, are we obligated to do anything else? My gut tells me no, and I'm sure my boss will too when I run it by him, but is there anything else I might have missed? Are we actually obligated to ever show the bride the photos before choosing the best ones (you know, the ones we as artists see as our best work and aren't blurry/wrongly exposed/repetitive)? Are we obligated to still provide the other photos we didn't like, even if they pay for them (which I'm tempted to suggest), or can we say nope and end any further business transactions with them ever again?</p>

<p>Thanks for your help!</p>

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<p>Emily,<br /> My first thought as a professional doing this for over 17 years is 300 is very few images for a wedding of 8 hours and having two photographers at that. Why only limit them to 300? If it is about the money then you should charge more. It is very hard to limit one self to only taking 300 images during an 8 hour wedding. I know that this is the edited number but still.<br /> You mentioned you gave them extra pictures so that tells me there was other images that you took that you discarded just to keep it within the contracted limit. Personally I think it is silly to do that. Most of us will give a minimum number of images to expect rather than a maximum. You should always give everything you take minus the duplicates, closed eyes, bad shots etc. People notice when you take a shot and they sometimes remember when you don't include it. But that is another story. Your story is you really did not give them enough images for that time frame. The easiest way to fix this going forward is to charge more money. Forget trying to give a really good deal and concentrate on giving them fair rate based on your area. You can always give something extra but never lower your price.</p>
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It appears that you do have a contract. The emails and handwritten documents (particulary those in the bride's hand), if

they are consistent, show a meeting of the minds and are just as much a contract as if all the information had been

included in a single written document signed by the parties.

 

Based on your account of the situation, you did what was agreed on and were paid in full. Anything else you might do

now would be new work and depend on a new agreement with the client.

 

Next time get a detailed written contract. If the client ia a friend, relative or employer, it is especially important to cover

EVERY POSSIBLE detail in a clearly written, ironclad contract.

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<blockquote>

<p>Has anyone dealt with something like this, and if so, how did you handle it? </p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Yes, once. It's actually pretty simple. About 4 lines actually. a) You are sorry they feel 'you didn't do the job well' / 'didn't get the images they really wanted'. b) You feel that you exceeded in every way the "contracted" ("agreed to" in your case) deliverables c) While there is always a missed opportunity of some sort, since the Bride didn't do a better job of communicating her (current) desires prior to the date, there was no way for you to take better/more pictures of the things she wants now. <br>

<br>

However, its clear that they feel as if you are holding out on them, and they are entitled to see and have every exposure you took. Obviously they are not, but you should simply decide now whether you want to send them everything you shot (perhaps a better business decision, depending on your career goals), or stick to your artistic guns. It's up to you, but this is why, when I'm doing post, I simply go through every single shot, and export every one that I find artistically appealing. While I contract a minimum number of exposures, I still send them every pic I think is worth a consideration regardless of whether or not I've exported 689 pics on a 450 pic contract.... That comes around to help me when they order prints too....<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Since we didn't have a contract but everything is written down in pieces that we can still prove our agreement, are we obligated to do anything else?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No. You have an agreement, so while it is spread across a ream of paper (which weakens it in a legal sense), the sum typically comprises a contract. As long as you met the terms outlined in the agreement, no more work is required.<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p> Are we obligated to still provide the other photos we didn't like, even if they pay for them (which I'm tempted to suggest), or can we say nope and end any further business transactions with them ever again?</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

No. You are not obligated (unless your agreement says otherwise), but if you take an additional payment to provide those, then you will need to do so. I wouldn't recommend it though. Instead, given your lack of experience (and lack of contract), I'd say copy them all to a DVD-R and mail em off, no extra charge. Tell them that is EVERYTHING, and wash your hands.<br>

</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>I was asked to help a friend out with photographing a wedding . . . So finally, I get down to my questions:</p>

<p>“Are we obligated to still provide the other photos we didn't like, even if they pay for them (which I'm tempted to suggest), or can we say nope and end any further business transactions with them ever again?”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Your OP implies that your ‘friend’ was the contracted photographer: if this is correct then my response is applicable to what your ‘friend’ should do. This is not to say that you should not have input or be at the meeting that I suggest that you have – but the point is, if your ‘friend’ is the contracted photographer, then you should take a secondary role in any further dealings with the Client. </p>

<p>From what you have disclosed it occurs to me that the main issue is, <strong>they want more photos that they know were taken but they have not yet seen</strong> – simple and immediate resolution: supply to them those photos – <strong>AFTER having face to face meeting and drawing out the issue and getting a new agreement.</strong> (that does NOT necessarily mean asking for more money).<strong> </strong></p>

<p>I suggest that your ‘friend’ (and maybe you too), have a meeting with the Mother and consider giving her the extra photo that you have that you “don’t like” – NOT the photos that are 'errors', but all the images that are technically OK but just not in alignment with your “artistry”. </p>

<p>I also suggest that before the meeting you devoid yourself from the many emotional/subjective aspects that you have taken on – for examples: your opinion that they got a good deal; that the MoB has ‘gall’ to offer suggestions about professionalism . . . etc.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>Next time, to ensure that you have aligned your artistic goals to your business goals:<br>

Have a CONTRACT that outlines the supply of the goods and states that<strong> the Photographer has total editorial aegis.</strong> </p>

<p>WW</p>

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Thank you all for your replies. I really

appreciate what you had to say. I think

William had it put best that I should remove

myself more from the situation because my

friend was the primary photographer

contracted. I am very close to her and so I

feel that maybe I took a lot more of this to

heart than I should have because I love

working with her as a team, and because I do

work for at a well-established studio already

and so I know I would have pushed harder

for a contract had I been a part of this gig

sooner...but I held back because I wasn't the

one running it and I feel bad about not

speaking up. I saw where the screw-ups

were but didn't assume we would have to

worry about it given the vibes we had at the

wedding and immediately after. I'll discuss

what you guys have suggested with her and

we'll go from there. Thanks!

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<p>Long answer - a detailed example of my experience, which might be helpful to both you and perhaps moreso to your friend:</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br /> I was asked to help a friend out with photographing a wedding . . . <strong>My friend is related somewhat to the bride.</strong> . . . Has anyone dealt with something like this, and if so, how did you handle it?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, I have.</p>

<p>Very similar happened to our business about three years after I built our first studio. I shot a relation’s Wedding. Both the Bridegroom and the Mother of the Bride complained after the Wedding. There were several 'complaint’ issues which were presented to me, which included, but not limited to: ‘not enough photos’; ‘not the ones that we wanted’.</p>

<p>However, I believe that <strong>there is usually only ONE issue of complaint</strong> a Customer has and the best practice in business is to <strong>identify and isolate that ONE issue very quickly</strong> so that the matter can be put to bed expediently.</p>

<p>The KEY issue my customer had was about the price that we had charged. The Bridegroom came to a meeting with me citing the wholesale price list from the Professional Lab that we used. It was revealed that one of the Lab Technicians went to school with the Bridegroom and she took it upon herself to inform the Bridegroom that she was printing the preview prints of his Wedding and also she thought it a good idea to send him a ‘professional/account customer only price list’ which contained all the professional services and the wholesale prices for those services.</p>

<p>Around that time I was doing about 30~40 Weddings per year for our business and when I shot this particular Wedding I would have had about 200 Weddings under my belt: including the ones that I was shooting for another Studio. Our own business practice included a face to face meeting with every B&G prior and that was where we planned the “must haves” also that’s where they signed the contract. For this particular Wedding I made reference that I would do the job at ‘at my costs only’ and I calculated a fixed price which included their selection of an album and 60 prints they could choose from the preview prints we would supply; and they could also keep all the preview prints (not contact sheets). In my calculated price, to which the B&G agreed, I included ALL my expendable costs, but I did not articulate them as individual items - these were: film; developing; printing; album; petrol and my minor incidentals, (and also included the Sales Tax that I would have to pay), but I did NOT include: wages for my TIME and EXPERTISE; also there was NO accounting for any profit, (for an example there was no margin added on the price of prints). The price that we charged was under half of our retail price for the same coverage and album, at that time.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>How did I manage our business, moving forward, as a result of that learning experience?</p>

<p>> I changed our business plan to include NEVER shoot for a relation or close friend - other than it be Pro Bono and that it be initiated by either me or my business partner.</p>

<p>> I changed the business’s marketing plan to NEVER give discount of price off the bottom line or advertised price: but to only ever give customer a value add by way of extra goods, at no charge</p>

<p>> I changed the business’s marketing plan to NEVER give additional shooting TIME at no charge: but to only ever give customer a value add by way of extra goods at no charge</p>

<p>> I strategized the business’s output and marketing plan to move to specifically target clientele that were looking for a spend three times as much on their wedding coverage.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>How did I handle that particular Client at the meeting?</p>

<p>It was apparent to me within 30 seconds of that meeting with the Bridegroom that he had a head of steam <strong>and the KEY issue was the price that I had charged.</strong> He came with a spread sheet outlining the costs of 60 prints (for the album) and also the costs of the preview prints, based upon the wholesale price list he had obtained. In his calculations he had NOT included the cost of film; developing; petrol; the album itself and minor incidentals and sales tax, (which at that time was 27½%). Sales Tax, back then, was charged at the WHOLESALE LEVEL of the transaction, so the average retail customer was usually ignorant of the inclusion of any Sales Tax which was part of the final retail price. (Also 'Wholesale Price Lists' always listed the price <strong>exclusive of </strong>Sales Tax, simliarly today, here in AUS, Wholesale Prices and some quotes by professonal services are listed exlcusive of Goods and Services Tax: but Retail Prices always must include the GST.)</p>

<p>After listening to him for about five minutes presenting his argument of how I <em>"had ripped him off for several hundreds of dollars"</em>, I asked if he still had his friend working at the professional lab and he said that he did. So I then asked if he would be satisfied if I handed over all the negatives to him and also gave him back all the money that he had paid and he could use that money for his inconvenience and to put towards having his Wedding Photos printed and we would dissolve our previous agreement that he had signed and that this new agreement would stand in its place – i.e. I give a Full Refund and he gets all the negatives that I shot, gratis.</p>

<p>He was a bit gob-smacked but eventually said he would be happy for that to happen. So I drew up a paper outlining that arrangement <strong>and that there would be no further claim ever made</strong> and he signed it and I had his signature witnessed.</p>

<p>I gave him the complete negative file and a cheque for the full amount that he paid to us. He was seriously put out when I kept all the preview prints: but as I outlined he had signed that he got the negatives and a full refund of all monies paid – nothing more, nothing less - and that he had no further claim.</p>

<p>The story doesn’t end there: other interesting aspects included but were not limited to:<br /> > The MoB apparently gave the money to the Groom to pay me but, correctly, I made the refund cheque payable and 'not negotiable payable only' to the Groom, (who had paid me and who had signed the original contract). But as the MoB had also made a compliant to me it was the best business etiquette that I, after the meeting with the Groom, contact the MoB and give her a full account of the binding and final resolution that I had reached with the Groom.<br /> > As I understand the Lab Technician was sacked for breaching professional in-confidence aspects of her employment and also for engaging in a <em>‘foreign order’</em> when she printed negs supplied by a non account/professional customer and processed the charges for that order from the Professional Price List.<br /> > I was also told that the order was subsequently charged at the Labs’ Retail Price for all of the 108, 10 x 8 prints that had been ordered - obviously the retail price of the lab included sales tax and also was in alignment with most of the Professional Photographers' Retail Print prices, at that time.<br /> > I am not sure if the 108 photos that were printed, ever ended up being mounted in an album.</p>

<p>WW</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>finally, I get down to my questions: Has anyone dealt with something like this, and if so, how did you handle it? Since we didn't have a contract but everything is written down in pieces that <em><strong>we can still prove our agreement</strong></em>, are we obligated to do anything else?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No. </p>

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William W.,

 

Some (positive) comments:

Your understanding of the situation and psychology of your client was deep and profound.

How you handled it: that was a very clever and professionally impeccable solution.

 

To Emily:

Welcome to the business side of professional photography. How does it feel? Are you willing to go forward with it as a

career? Everyone who works as a professional -plumber, painter, photographer, engineer, accountant, doctor, and lawyer

- has to deal with customers - some are nice (most are) and some are not, and all will always want to feel like they walk

away from the deal feeling like like they got more than what they paid for, and honestly it's part of your job to make them

believe that you went the extra mile for them. You certainly do when you hire a professional. The nasty clients will

demand it.

 

So as William suggested, figure out what they really want.

 

To those who argued from the point of view of "artistic integrity": in this context there is no such thing, and I'd argue there

is no such thing in any context when you are doing a job

 

Moral integrity to do the best job possible? Yes!

 

Professional integrity? Absolutely yes!

 

 

But "Artistic" integrity? To yourself only, and only when you are shooting strictly for yourself, are you are owed that

responsibility. However I suggest that you treat every photograph you make , whether for yourself or for hire, as if you are

shooting strictly for yourself.

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<blockquote>

<p>“To those who argued from the point of view of "artistic integrity": in this context there is no such thing, and I'd argue there is no such thing in any context when you are doing a job“</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree.<br>

The job is as much about firstly figuring out what the clients actually wants and then delivering those elements to them – as the job is about making photographs.<br>

There is a ‘style’ that will differ from one Photographer to the next – Clients should see those style differences and use them as part of their buying criteria.</p>

<p>I realized that “the job is solely about the Client”, several years ago. As a result of that realization, I changed my approach to how I initially interacted with my Prospects and also how I approached all my Wedding Jobs, generally. I outlined part of my evolution in a thread about ‘photographers’ credentials’, which is here: <br>

<a href="/casual-conversations-forum/00chtO">(My Commentary on this thread made on - Jul 16, 2014; 08:06 p.m)</a></p>

<p>***</p>

<p>Thank you for the kind comment, Ellis.</p>

<p>These points might be useful for Emily and her friend:<br>

> Regarding the analysis of the people involved - I had some advantage that the people involved were relatives, so I had knowledge of them and previous interactions of theirs with other family members.<br>

> Regarding how clever that I might have been at the time: I was actually quite nervous at the meeting but my overriding premise that I had decided before the meeting, was to achieve the outcome to shed everything; to leave no loose ends and to walk away clean. I think that any cleverness on my part was being able to firstly identify what the problem actually was (which wasn’t rocket science) and then quickly think on my feet and link the refund to be used to print the photos that the Groom wanted.<br>

> I think that the real ‘cleverness’ was to have a PLAN and an OUTCOME in my mind. I had identified that <strong>I had made a big mistake</strong> taking on the job in the first place. Accepting that the mistake was mine, it was easy to indentify that the best outcome was to remove all the aspects of the problem in the most efficient and correct manner possible. I think that often when there is an issue many people don’t allow themselves the advantage of looking at the problem as THEIR OWN mistake – we all do that, it is just human. BUT if we can own “the mistake”, then it is usually much easier to work a way out of it.<br>

> The other dominoes that fell, (Lab Technician; price charged by lab Manager to Groom and MoB paying for the Photography initially) were not anywhere in my thinking process at the time and I only found out about these aspects, many months later.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>This discussion in large part is about the business aspects of Photography: my general comment is that I think it is very important to remove one’s own emotion from these situations. That’s why I mentioned elements such as: <em>‘this is a really good deal’</em>; ‘<em>I see it as my friend giving the "family discount/bridal gift" thing’</em>; and <em>‘had the gall to tell my friend how she should run herself as a professional photographer in the future,’</em> are not relevant when Emily or her friend is considering what actions they are to make.</p>

<p>Allowing our own emotional involvement in a business issue, usually clouds clear business judgement and result in poor business choices being made. </p>

<p>WW</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>"I had some advantage that the people involved were relatives, so I had knowledge of them and previous interactions of theirs with other family members." & "my overriding premise that I had decided before the meeting, was to achieve the outcome to shed everything; to leave no loose ends and to walk away clean."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Translated in to American style slang. "<em>They are out of their minds. I knew that dealing with them any further would have been be a total nightmare so I had to make a deal to completely cut them loose.</em>"</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Allowing our own emotional involvement in a business issue, usually clouds clear business judgement and result in poor business choices being made."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It also leads to extra paragraphs of explanations when asking for advice on internet forums. Although that tends to reveal that indulgence in emotional reactions is an underlying problem to that which is stated.</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>"Translated in to American style slang . . ."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hilariously accurate: you’ve met my relations?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"extra paragraphs of explanations" . . . "<strong><em>that tends to reveal</em></strong>"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Also accurate.<br>

Also - it is usually better that the: patient; client; child; student . . . any person seeking assistance, talk a bit too much, than not enough. Anyway, I have inkling that you don’t really mind wading through the extra text. </p>

<p>WW</p>

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<p>That situation is unfortunately fairly common in the low-budget wedding industry. I ran in to it a small handful of times, and it ultimately comes down to managing the customer's expectations... If they think you missed something and you end up delivering ANY MORE PHOTOS at all to make them happy, they will believe that you are holding out on them and will not leave you alone until you hand over all of your unedited files. They think that's what they really want.</p>

 

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