Paying A Second Shooter??

<p>Hi there, new to the forum! I'm sorry in advance for how long this post may be - I want to be as thorough as possible in getting an honest answer for this dilemma I've found myself in!<br /><br />I am a fairly new wedding photographer in southern California with about 10 weddings and several portrait/engagement sessions under my belt. I've shot alone, as a second shooter, and as the lead photographer. <br /><br />For the last year and a half, I have almost solely shot as my boyfriend's second shooter. He is 10 years older than myself and has a much more established business. We have very similar styles, so it's been great to be myself while learning his business practices and his day-of service. We started working together before dating, but he stills treats and pays me the way he did when I was just a second shooter to him. He typically pays me $200-300 per wedding, depending on how big/long of a package was booked. He collects all the photos and edits both his and mine in his style to present to the bride, but we have an agreement where I can use the photos I shot with my own editing as long as I credit him wherever I post them as well. <br /><br />After many years of shooting, he has sort of taken a more casual approach to photography and isn't advertising much anymore, so the weddings we work on are more spaced out. The lapse in time between shoots has left me antsy, and I decided that I would pursue shooting with others as well to continue improving my skills so I don't get out of practice between weddings with my boyfriend. I posted an ad on Craigslist looking for a lead photographer to shoot with and was contacted by a female photographer my age that liked my work and wanted to see if we could shoot together. <br /><br />We met up for lunch and discussed everything. Our styles, what areas we're each weak/strong in, etc. We agreed on the same scenario I have with my boyfriend where I can use my own photos as long as I attribute her as well. She asked for something unique that I hadn't heart of before - she said she prefers her second shooters to do their own editing before submitting photos. It's my understanding that typically photographers like to edit all the photos to submit a more cohesive package to the bride, considering they hired <em><strong>that</strong></em> photographer, not the assistant, and may not want the assistant's style. Regardless of my views on it, I agreed. We talked about shooting together on sort of a trial basis "to see how we work together." I agreed and we shot together about a month later.<br /><br />The wedding went well. It was an odd experience as a second shooter as she really didn't have me assisting much. I held up the bride's dress for a garter shot and helped shoo kids away from the family portrait background; otherwise, she treated me as just an additional photographer, not an assistant. Other than being the one to suggest poses during the private bride/groom portraits, it was pretty unclear to the guests who the lead was. I loved it as I got a lot of shots you'd typically only get as the lead!<br /><br />A week after the wedding, she asked me to send 50-100 sample photos to show the bride. In casual conversation I told my boyfriend that I was working on sending the photos to her and he seemed pretty shocked that I not only worked for free but also was handing over my (edited) photos for free for her to profit on. I told him that we were testing out how we worked together and he asked why does she my time <em>and</em> my work for free? He asked if it was just to see how we work together and secure my place as her go-to second shooter, and she obviously liked my work, why doesn't she pay me for it? In our conversation on the issue, he had a lot of valid points. As a much more experienced photographer with over 100 weddings, he kinda knows the drill as far as second shooters go and he has always been very good to them. The way he sees it, she's abusing my status as a second shooter and is getting my work for free. Since she found me on Craigslist, how do I know she isn't going around to all the local second shooters and uses their work for free just once so she never has to pay? All his questions got me thinking.<br>

<br />I decided to post my preview photos in a gallery hosted by myself with my business name. With downloads disabled, she was able to view my photos but wasn't able to save them. She told me they looked wonderful and asked about downloading them. I'm having a really hard time coming up with something to say about what I feel about giving her the edited photos for free. Not only am I the type that has a hard time standing up for myself, I also have a hard time coming to decisions like this without input. I've got my boyfriend's input, but I know he's probably biased and may be extra protective over me as his girlfriend.<br>

I should also add that there was no contract. She also mentioned that her contract with the bride didn't have a second shooter in it (this came up in that she warned me that unless the food was buffet style, we may have to share a plate since she didn't have a second shooter in the contract). Does the lack of contract between us and lack of a second shooter in the bride's contract mean/change anything either way?<br>

<br /><br />How would you handle the situation? Would you give her the photos for free? What about other options, like lo-res downloads or having the bride purchase a disk from me? </p>

From what you wrote, your "mates' rates" are already $200-300 per session. That gives you a starting figure to

bill her. Send her a polite and friendly response and your invoice, and see where things go from there.

 

Also, if she can view the high-res versions of the photos then she can download them, regardless of

disabling of downloads or actual ownership of copyright. That's not to say that she *will* do so, but it's

something to bear in mind.

<p>You have to do what you agreed on. If you agreed to do it for free as a trial you have to honor that agreement.</p>

<p>Anyway, if you are going to work together in the future you need to trust each other. Right now you're just guessing what she is thinking or might be thinking. Communication is the key here. Face to face, not email or phone. But maybe you want to second shot for someone who you can learn more from.</p>

<p>And maybe you did get screwed this first time. If so get over it and move on. Find someone else to second shot for.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Man, that was long. I'm not sure what boyfriends scaling back work and so on has to do with anything.<br /> <br />In any event, the issue is if you have a contract with the first shooter. She apparently agreed to let you try out for a job in exchange for you agreeing to terms of benefit to here. You both agreed to exchange things of value (even if not much value). So it sounds like you have an offer, acceptance and consideration. Even though copyright transfer is effectuated by written documentation, the contract agreement seems to suggest an obligation to effectuate that or, at least, to grant a broad license for the first to do whatever they need to do for their client.</p>

<p>It appears from the story that there are the elements of a binding contract and now you are talking about breaching the contract.</p>

<p>Not good.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Send her a polite and friendly response and your invoice, and see where things go from there.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I can tell you right now where it will go. South. Fast.</p>

<p>The problem is that you agreed to shoot for free. Next time don't agree to shoot for free.</p>

<p>You already agreed to shoot for free, and apparently edit the photos for free, so thats what you have to go with. Especially if you want to work with her again. Its also your reputation as a second shooter with other photographers as everyone talks. Giver her what you agreed to without changing the terms after the fact.</p>

<p>A better verbal free contract might have been, I'll shoot for free and edit the photos for free and if you like them and want to use them pay me as a second shooter at "your" normal rate. If you don't want to use them, then the shoot is free. And then stress the free shoot offer is a one time deal while you both decide if both of you can work together.</p>

<p>After this charge to 2nd shoot the wedding, then charge a per photo editing fee. Enough that on the editing she might even decide to just give you all the photos to edit and make some money of editing as well. Maybe $2.50 a photo - sounds low, but on 100 photos thats another $250. It really depends on how long you are spending on editing 100 photos and what kind of editing you are doing. It could be simple adjustments and you can do 10/hour or it could be 4 hours per photo. So price it like your time is worth something.</p>

 

<p>Megan - </p>

<p>I wholeheartedly agree with John H on this one. </p>

<p>The time to ask about payment is BEFORE you do the shoot, not after. You said "on a trail basis" unless you discussed payment up front that to me means FREE. </p>

<p>If you turn around and send her an invoice - you're cutting your own throat. Give her the images from this wedding and mark it down as a lesson learned. Let her know that you enjoyed working with her - if you did- and that from now on you would expect to be a paid 2nd. Any other options / requests for payment would be met with something less than welcome, I think. </p>

<p>The rate you are charging is hard to judge - since most pay 2nd photographers an hourly rate, not a fixed per wedding rate. My area's going rate for a 2nd is $10-$50.00 per hour - with NO EDITING - my 2nds can keep copies of the images do their own edits - but the rules are firm - final / client edits are mine and mine alone. I cull their shots - I edit the photos - end of discussion. The 2nd does not have any contact with the client - nor do they have any say over which images go to the client. </p>

<p>Chalk this up as a lesson learned. For what it's worth - If someone comes to me or I answer an ad on CL for a 2nd - I ALWAYS PAY THEM SOMETHING. Even if the bride didn't request a 2nd - I PAY THE 2nd out of MY POCKET. </p>

<p>I would honestly avoid that primary in the future - since it doesn't sound like she is all that professional. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>John H. Is right. Besides. You want to be the person who does what she says she will do. Having said that....<br>

This photographer took advantage of you. She should have at least paid you an honorarium of some kind IMO. You have learned a valuable lesson.</p>

<p>Think about this. If you are talking professional services...when you charge nothing there is a tendency for your client to think that is exactly what it is worth. <br>

What I would do is deliver these shots to her and ask her directly when the next wedding is, how much you will be paid and determine who does post. You charge a bunch for post. </p>

 

<p>I'm not sure what is going on with your BF, but clearly something is, else all these 'valid points' wouldv'e been considered prior to agreeing (when they should have been). It's not like you didn't know you were agreeing to work, and edit, for free, as a result, your BF's opinion (who wasn't there, didn't do the work, and didn't converse or sgree with her) is completely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Frankly, you need to enable the downloads, as others have said, YOU (not your BF) agreed to this trial shoot, YOU need to meet the obligations you agreed to. Yes, I agree, you shouldn't have agreed to do it for free, however, the cow's already out of the barn, so closing the door now is only going to make things worse.</p>

<p>But her 'pay' doesn't sound that bad for a trial shoot (part of that 'pay' was allowing you more freedom in one day than your BF's allowed you in total). I think she's assessing your capabilities as a shooter who adds value to her business. If you can do your own editing (and produce good results), adding a second to her shooting has a much lower overall cost, which is good for you and her! Sounds like she was honest with you, specifically about why she wasn't paying you anything -which sounds perfectly reasonable. Yes, I would have paid you something, but she may not be as experienced as us. I think it's reasonable to assume that she is mixing it up, and doesn't have a clear plan here (in part because she doesn't know how much to trust you before she starts committing to clients). OTOH, she may have thought this all out, and is giving you rope to see what you do with it...</p>

<p> The fact that she allows you to properly second (unlike your BF from your description (more like an assistant)) is going to allow you to achieve much more, much faster than simply shooting under your BFs wing. If your style and capabilities complement hers, and you work well together, I think it's very possible this could turn into a permanent relationship, one which would be very benficial to both you and her.... <br>

...Of course if you demand payment for what you've agreed to do for free, you've just destroyed any and all trust, and made yourself an extortionist. Don't expect her to either pay you, or ever call you again.</p>

<p>I'm neither professional photographer, nor lawyer, but you're touching on a point of simply doing business. To pick up on what Marcus said in his last post: if you want to start building your own business, do you want to start with fighting with other photographers, or better to build a good and possibly durable professional relationships? Stick to your promises, even if they seem less smart in retrospect. It's about having a chance at earning respect and establishing a good name - you get those chances only once. Forget about the money, you tried to invest in your future. Could be the best $200-300 you ever spent.</p>

<p>I should have added that if I was in your shoes (which I decidedly am not), doing a freebie where I was free to shoot independently, as well as do my own post vs. a (minimally - $2/300) paid gig where I was constantly doing assistant work (fetching things, setup, herding cats, etc.), and not expected to think, I would take the freebie in a heartbeat (assuming the mortgage was already paid ;) ). IDK, that's just my opinion.</p>

<p>Not only do you have freedom from the responsibility (resides on the primary), but you have the opportunity to explore photographically. You'll learn a heckuva lot more a heckuva lot faster. I have often considered doing the odd 2nd gig just for the freedom to approach the wedding from a different angle than I'm usually required too (by contract, <em>and</em> by necessity).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I should have added that if I was in your shoes (which I decidedly am not), doing a freebie where I was free to shoot independently, as well as do my own post vs. a (minimally - $2/300) paid gig where I was constantly doing assistant work (fetching things, setup, herding cats, etc.), and not expected to think, I would take the freebie in a heartbeat (assuming the mortgage was already paid ;) ). IDK, that's just my opinion. . .<em><strong>You'll learn a heckuva lot more a heckuva lot faster.</strong></em>"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>+1<br>

Sage. </p>

<p>IMO this advice applies to experienced Photographers, too.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>FWIW, Whatever you agreed to do, you should do it. You knew what was expected, I would just do it and if she wishes to continue to use your services and you want to work with her, than you have to work out an arrangement with her for remuneration for any further projects. If you think she is taking advantage of you then don't work for her anymore. I thought the way Wouter put it speaks very well.</p>