john_h.1 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Contrary to popular belief your time is not worth money. Your body of work / service and experience is.</p> </blockquote> <p>If we follow this to its logical conclusion, Dave will be willing to work a job for a week or two and charge the same amount for a job that last a few hours. Because "time is not worth money".</p> <p>Imagine him hiring a reputable plumber to come perform a repair. Dave is running late making the plumber wait before even starting. Then, when the job turns out to be more involved than described, the plumber announces that the fee to complete the job will need increase as a result. The reply... "contrary to popular belief your time is not worth money. Your body of service and experience is" and that you should have "set your prices accordingly LONG before you find yourself in this situation". Then telling the plumber, as we a re told here, the additional fee requirement is "disgusting".</p> <p>Now imagine the priceless spectacle to follow.<br /><br />Well, that's what Dave is telling everyone here. Literally. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_photog Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>I don't charge over-rage as long as it is within reasonable hour. If I bill for 8 hour, I might stay for 9 without charge. We are hired to do a job so I wanted to see the job get done. If I have to stay for 12 hours instead of the agreed 8, then the job has changed so I'll charge more.</p> <p>Most important thing to me is the client respect our agreement and most of them do. They will push up their schedule if things run late. And I wouldn't mind staying a little longer for them. Other the years, I have had only one couple that totally disrespect the contractual time. Even with that one, I just ate the time myself and didn't fuss about it.<br> There were clients who wanted to pay me for an extra hour or two but I never billed them that. Like I said long as they respect the contract, I'll respect their wedding as well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Ok - I lied -</p> <p>John H - your post made me think of a local plumbing company who shifted to the "dave thomas" model of pricing - they came in and said if you want a facet replaced it's $300 if you want a water heater connected it 's $500 and so on - everything was a "fixed" price.</p> <p>I had them come out to do a sink (kitchen) I knew it was a bear - hourly plumbers quoted between $500 and $800 because of the space, requirements and hookups of the dishwasher, disposal, etc...</p> <p>In that instance I was more than happy to accept the $300.00 bid for 10 hours of plumbing, supplies, and listening to the plumber gripe that he wasn't getting on to other work.</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <blockquote> <p>"Telling a client that they can pay less for less shooting hours. Is akin to a waiter telling you that if you don't finish all of your meal it will be discounted."</p> </blockquote> <p>For analogies to apply, they actually have to be analogous. A more fitting comparison would be a meal costing less because it is a smaller portion, takes less time or difficulty to prepare, requires less expensive ingredients ect. If one is going to assert a position on an issue, there should be some recognition as to what the issue actually is about. The non-analogy above tends to indicate otherwise.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn_mertz Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Much depends on how the possible client contacts me.<br> On Thumbtack how many hours, and knowing exactly what they want is important because you seldom get a chance to refine a quote, or add options after. <br> Most email enquiries are very short. you can give them a short answer or an elaborate answer, either way unless you are free or they are referred to you it is likely you will never get a response.<br> Over the phone you can get them talking about the wedding and feel them out, being more subtle about how long they want and what package would fit. Pity so few use phone for talking anymore.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Ok - I lied -</p> </blockquote> <p>I was hoping you would return.</p> <blockquote> <p>I don't charge over-rage as long as it is within reasonable hour. If I bill for 8 hour, I might stay for 9 without charge. We are hired to do a job so I wanted to see the job get done. If I have to stay for 12 hours instead of the agreed 8, then the job has changed so I'll charge more.</p> </blockquote> <p>Very reasonable. I gather most photographers would make make some accommodation where circumstances warrant such as discussed in the post. Dave, however, states that time is not a consideration at all. Which is either an extremist position or arises out of not making sense. Which one it is, I don't know.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_thomas10 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Yes same price Wendy. I'm only able to do X number of jobs per year. Those dates have to be worth X-amount. <br> When I was in a position where I had to take every job on that came my way - I would still stay as long as I felt it required to accomplish my goal of producing the best possible results regardless of what the client was willing to pay. When your hungry and inexperienced this has to be your modus operandi. At the end of the day the actual amount of hours you log in during a typical wedding day shoot is so minuscule in comparison to the contributions you make on an annual basis to your business and craft that its barely worth factoring in. Give yourself the best opportunity to succeed every time you take your camera out. Every job is SO important to the long term viability of your business. To put a cap on your potential at any level promotes stagnation. You have to fight for every inch of ground you gain. No one is going to empower you except yourself. It begins and ends with the contributions you are willing to make on a daily basis. 99% of which you will never be compensated for - nor should you. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p><em>Telling a client that they can pay less for less shooting hours. Is akin to a waiter telling you that if you don't finish allof your meal it will be discounted. </em></p> <p>Shopping for part-day wedding photography is similar to going to a restaurant and requesting only the main course, or just the soup. At least I expect to get it at a lower price than a full three course menu. You're making it sound like only the three-course menu should be offered by any restaurant. This is not a realistic policy because many people don't want to each such a large, comprehensive and expensive meal. Meeting the service with the actual needs and budget of the customer is important. It is no sign of great heroism if you're able to market and sell to the customer something that did not need nor could really afford to pay for.</p> <p><em>If you get twice as effective at doing your job - you'll need to book twice as much work to do make the same amount of money.</em></p> <p>The amount of post-processing work in a 15 hour full day coverage is much greater than if doing a part-of-the day 4-8 hour coverage, thus the cost of the former to the customer is much greater as well. If the latter coverage best meets the client's needs and budget then it is what I would offer. It's not like there is shortage of work in life.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_thomas10 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Your soup analogy is a good one. A restaurant or bar looses money on soup. Its a loss-leader. Its sole purpose is to keep you in your seat longer - the longer your length of stay - the more $$$ you are likely to spend. To that business you would pretty much be the worst possible customer if you occupied a seat that is worth X-Amount to them and only purchased the bare minimum. Again the amount of time it takes to make even the cheapest can of soup pales in comparison to the revenue that business looses just by having you sit there. </p> <p>The fact that some of you are even going out of your way to attract these customers - some even spending thousands of dollars a year on advertising to reach them is beyond laughable. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think this thread has run its course of bickering. This forum is for learning not preaching or bickering how someone else runs there business. Both of you sound like two disgruntled brides who had to pay overtime for your wedding. What the rest of us do is our business so be glad for your own business model and take your bickering to another site who cares. I am Done with this thread and I hope the moderator closes this thread as it serves no benifit to anyone. <p><blockquote><strong> Moderator’s Comment:</strong></p> <p>This thread has been monitored from the opening post.</p> <p>Noted that it has changed the main topic from the emphasis on how personally involved one should become with; and how best to initially question and seek information from a Prospect, to a more general discussion on Business Models. Noted also, there have been a few personal attacks.</p>. <p> If participants wish to continue discussion <strong>on the topic of business models <i>and other matters that are related to or contained in the opening post</i></strong>, the thread will remain open for that to take place: and it would be best if moving forward there was no ambiguity or misinterpretation in the meaning of comments whereby any comment might seem a personal attack or “bickering”.</p> <p> Thank you in advance for your co-operation.</blockquote></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Agreed..Thank you!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgomez Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Agreed, thanks Michael. This was meant to be a deep and open discussion about service, not to attack another photographer into changing their business approach. What works for you, works for you.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottelly Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 <p>Holy moly! "You need to know about your clients but I'm not in this business to make my clients my friends for life."</p> <p>Please don't take advice from that guy!</p> <p>Yes, what your experience showed you was how pathetic most photographers are at selling their services. Things in business are generally headed this way, and that is one reason why better sales people will continue to do well. Impersonal leaves people feeling cold. A good business person will not provide that sort of service. A good, service-oriented professional will make the entire process much more warm and comfortable for their clients.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 "Please don't take advice from that guy!" <P> Treating a business as a business does not mean a person's advice is bad. I don't think most clients/customers think of their service providers as lifelong friends. For example, I always use the same motorcycle repair and maintenance shop because they do a good job at a fair price, and they're easy and pleasant to work with. However, I wouldn't call them up to bail me out of jail or serve as groomsmen at my wedding--they're not life-long, personal friends. We have a very positive and mutually-beneficial <b>business</b> relationship. To be honest, if they started acting like my lifelong friends, I'd find it a bit creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelchadwickphotography Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 <p>I was on vacation and missed this, but if I am one of the people "duped" into submitting to a fake Thumbtack lead, I would like a refund of the money I spent bidding on that lead.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 <p>@michael chadwick - My understanding from Thumbtack is that they are aware of the situation, have or will be contacting Rob and then once they find the fake account and who bid on the job, will be issuing refunds of credits used.</p> <p>I can't speak about the other services, as I'm not at the same membership level in them as I am in Thumbtack.</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_photog Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 <blockquote> <p> Impersonal leaves people feeling cold. A good business person will not provide that sort of service. A good, service-oriented professional will make the entire process much more warm and comfortable for their clients.</p> </blockquote> <p>There's a big difference between being impressonal and friends for life. This is a big problem rookie photog makes nowadays thinking there's only one way to skin the cat. Like crouching on a rooftop to take a photog or in that tragedy case in Canada a bride was drown in her wedding dress in a river. A lot of rookie photogs mistaken taking chance and put the clients well being at risk is giving it all or professional.</p> <p>Same thing here, I will give my clients professional, curteous and personal service but I am not their family nor do I intend to be one. Yes, for those eight hours, many a time they make me feel like part of the family and I thank them for that. But after I pack up for the night, I have another family to think about which could come in as little as 12 hours when I'm double or triple booked for that weekend.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_thomas10 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 <p>"SINGLE, NON-SMOKING COMPANY SEEKS COMPANION FOR LAUGHS, MAYBE MORE ... "</p> <p>I think this will be the subject line of my next email quote response. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn_mertz Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 <p>A comparison to a restaurant meal given said if someone later decides they don't want a of it do they pay less. the answer is obvious. Then if they decide they want more the answer is also obvious, they have to pay. I've stayed plenty of times for a few minutes or a little longer to get one special shot they ask for or something i want but beyond that i charge extra. An example would be I want a shot at near sunset because i can see it is going to look great in 15 minutes. I wait the 15 minutes shoot it. I don't charge for that, because I wanted it. If I stay for an hour photographing they pay for it. Limo charges extra for longer, DJ, banquet hall, Musicians, why should photographer stay for free?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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