PART 2 to Lightroom seems too intrusive, suggestions?

<p>Sorry. Was just trying to help. I have no need for this option. I'll just let the guys who know a whole lot more than I do wrestle with it.</p>

<p>Yes Phil, I get the same...to get the edits in raw/LR, you have to Render using LR. That is also what I get in CS5. I end up having to do cleanup of the TIF, when I see it obviously being the orphan dupe I created. Otherwise it just takes up a chunk of space.<br /> Phil and Jeff, or anyone.... This feedback is helpful. Being helpful is often not about your own need.(at least shouldn't be).<br /> Its the first time I am getting at a direct response. :-)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Jeff, your LR behavior is even more strange, as it is defaulting to a format OTHER than what you initially launched.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

I did a "Save As" PSD, not "Save."<br /></p>

<p>Interesting. Just tried it(Save As). Not the case for me. It is not in LR.</p>

<p>Jeff, Do you have CS5 or other versions?</p>

Phil. I'm trying to understand to answer! That's why I asked for a step by step to understand what you're doing and want.

<p>No, just CC. I have a disc for CS4 but it's not loaded on my current system.</p>

<p>Well, I don't expect you to install PS just to test this. I am getting what Phil B reports.<br>

I understand this is not everyone's case. But it is for a lot of retouchers, and production workflow users, I'm sure a good chunk of photographers who use PSD. And it was simply ONE of the things I mentioned. <br>

Andrew, I did my best to explain it from the get go...</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>Yes, there is a need to sync up.</strong> unless you saved the file in the same format. (unlikely) BUT, I would think MANY if not most users who open the file in PS as it defaults to TIF (as it likely should), If you do some <strong>edits with layers and want to save it as PSD then you HAVE TO SYNC</strong>... And don't tell me how I can save a layer TIF file...Thats the last thing I want to do is mix up flat TIF print ready files withs layered TIF files.<br /> So, yes you DO need to sync if you want to save it anything else. The likely usage.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, I don't expect you to install PS just to test this. I am getting what Phil B reports.<br /> I understand this is not everyone's <strong>need</strong>. But it is for a lot of retouchers, and production workflow users, I'm sure a good chunk of photographers who use PSD. And it was simply ONE of the things I mentioned. <br /> Andrew, I did my best to explain it from the get go...</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>Yes, there is a need to sync up.</strong> unless you saved the file in the same format. (unlikely) BUT, I would think MANY if not most users who open the file in PS as it defaults to TIF (as it likely should), If you do some <strong>edits with layers and want to save it as PSD then you HAVE TO SYNC</strong>... And don't tell me how I can save a layer TIF file...Thats the last thing I want to do is mix up flat TIF print ready files withs layered TIF files.<br /> So, yes you DO need to sync if you want to save it anything else. The likely usage.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> The above was quoted from an early post to the issue.</p>

<p>I don't have to sync. I already pointed that out but you seem to want to claim that isn't the case, at least for LR5/PS CC. It loads it as PSD into the LR catalog directly from PS CC despite being sent over as a TIFF. I did a screen video but it doesn't seem to load properly as a video, so you have to download it as a <a href="http://spirer.com/images/lr2ps2lr.zip">zip file.</a></p>

<p>It's a big file and takes a while to download. If anyone can give me suggestions on how to quickly convert a .mov to something more compact, I will do it.</p>

<p>Yes, Jeff, and I'm apparently not alone.<br>

I take your word for it that CC with LR5.3 behaves the way you say it does. I don't think there are that many variables on how to do these steps for that to be a difference(in LR, rightClick the raw file, select EditIn...) You are using CC, so that is something I am unfamiliar with.<br>

Phil B does confirm my findings. I am HOPING it is a glitch or something that can be "fixed". Since LR v3 I have had this same behavior.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'm not about to go into preferences and change how to open the file format each time I want to switch it. Besides, sometimes you think a flat TIF is all you need, and realize you make further edits and layers, so I saved them in PSD. Yes, NOT saving in PSD from now on will help a lot. I am practicing the switch already.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, there is no need to save as to a PSD to save layers. The round trip of raw file to tif in photoshop and back to LR, will preserve any layers you added in PS. LR will not have the layers available to you, but they are there. If you need to work on those layers all you have to do is take the TIF now back in LR, rt. click choose edit in PS, choose edit original at the dialogue and when it opens in PS, the layers will all her there. I do it all the time.<br>

</p>

<p>Thanks Barry, this is well understood, and newly in practice.<br />What you point out is surely a work around to this limitation. LR forces you to use TIF or PSD, if you want it to make the round trip. Not together without a preference change.<br>

What you are confirming or helping force, for some to face is that LR(with at least CS5) CANNOT do this.<br>

I have a hunch that saving in PSB is the same result as saving to PSD.</p>

<p>I don't really consider it a work-around. I consider it a work flow. I suppose for some reason, they could put a switch in the dialogue box to allow you tell it to go into PS as either a PSD or a TIF when you go send a file to your external editor (btw, not all external editors accept PSD's) but really there's no practical reason to do so.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The question is:<br />C<strong>an LR EditIn a TIF file(with TIF being the preference format to EditIN) to PShop, and then save THAT file in PShop as a PSD, or PSB, etc, and have the file appear in LR WITHOUT Syncing the folder</strong><br>

?<br />Yes, or No?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>With that command, Edit In,no. If you do not want the iteration sent to Photoshop to be referenced, you use the <em>Export</em> command as it's built to do the same function as <em>Edit In</em> without the round trip. Edit In is a round trip by design! That's <em>why</em> there are differing ways to get your raws and other data out of LR in a rendered format. Export is WAY more powerful and with export presets, you can process a lot of work. <br>

You want iteration referenced in DAM [Round Trip]=Edit In<br>

You don't (or you can) [Round Trip] with way more options=Export.</p>

<p>The other advantage of <em>Export</em> is you are using your current version of LR to render, not ACR. Now if you are getting Photoshop CC, you'll get ACR updated all the time. But if you want to stick with CS6, but move forward with LR, Export is the way to go, you'll be using the latest processing. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>With that command, Edit In,no.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

It works for me. I don't know if it's possible to download the video I posted above, but it works for me.</p>

<p>Andrew, When you send a file via EditInn , LR will ask, If you want the origianl file or with the LR adjustments. So it actually does use the LR settings. <br>

Both EditIn and Export will "cook" the file. Yes, Export does give you loads of options. None I use in preliminary editing. Just in derivatives, which is really nice and good quality conversions.<br>

Jeff, Maybe PShop CC is giving some additional link and compatibility? I haven't upgraded to CS6 either. It is strange.... Once LR does a EditIN to the file out to PShop, it keeps the name and extension in some "memory" to silently import to the catalog on PSHop Save.<br />I was going to guess that the instruction string with CC now includes the PSD format as a variable? But that would mean the PShop is doing the push, which doesn't make sense.<br>

If there is some update, or additional Plugin you use, maybe that would explain it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>When you send a file via EditInn , LR will ask, If you want the origianl file or with the LR adjustments. So it actually does use the LR settings. <br />Both EditIn and Export will "cook" the file.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes or course they both will. I'm referring to the round trip! The inclusion of the iteration (<em>cooked</em> file) into the DAM/Catalog. That is <strong>optional</strong> with <em>Export</em>.<em> Edit In</em> includes it. And there IS a difference if the image has made the round trip or has been '<em>cooked</em>' (rendered is the proper term)! <br /> IF you have an image with say Layers, or an image that's rendered and you make edits to it <strong>in</strong> LR, then you ask to <em>Edit In</em>, you'll get options (Edit Original, Edit with LR adjustments etc). But again Phil, I thought (and I asked you repeatedly to explain exactly what you're unhappy with, your specific steps), I thought the issue was, whether the iteration tracked in the DAM or not. And the last time I asked, you got huffy with me. You've taken this discussion to so many places without specifics, added terms like "<em>cooked</em>" that I'm as confused as ever about just what you're having issues with. I (we) are trying...<br /> Lastly, all this can depend on the version of Photoshop and LR! They <strong>have</strong> to be in version parity because again, either LR or ACR will render the raw when you use <em>Edit In!</em> That's not the case with <em>Export</em>. <em>Export</em> always uses LR. <em>Edit In</em>, since I believe version 2, uses Photoshop/ACR (assuming you have Photoshop installed of course). <strong>If</strong> your version of ACR is older than LR and you ask to <em>Edit It,</em> you'll get a warning (which you can dismiss forever) that warns you of this mismatch. But even in this case, <em>Edit In</em> will track what you did when you return back to LR, it will show you the image you just edited within the DAM. IS THIS THE <em>ISSUE</em> YOU ARE REFERRING TO? <br /> I'm on the road this week (shooting in Carlsbad, White Sands) with somewhat limited access to LR and the net but if you can clear up, with a step by step exactly what you're doing, then what you expect, then what happens, I might have a better idea of what's '<em>wrong</em>' with LR.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Once LR does a EditIN to the file out to PShop, it keeps the name and extension in some "memory" to silently import to the catalog on PSHop Save.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong>YES!</strong> That's the idea behind the round trip! You render the raw (using ACR behind the scene). It appears in Photoshop. You apply edits. Doesn't matter if there are layers or not. Doesn't matter if you want a PSD or TIFF. If you asked for TIFF and save after editing, the new TIFF should appear in the Catalog. IF you use Save As and set PSD, you'll get a PSD (assuming we're still talking about formats which we shouldn't need to be). It <em>may</em> have layers. You see it '<em>flattened</em>' as LR doesn't support Layers. IF the image has Layers and you apply more LR edits (which is kind of dumb but that's another discussion), LR cannot apply it's new edits and give you back the layered image (it doesn't work with Layers). You'll be asked what to do, depending on the choice you'll get a new iteration. And that iteration should be in your catalog after the round trip. Using <em>Export</em> can do the same function and if so configured, NOT add the new iteration to the catalog. Is this what you've been asking about, is this the issue, is this not clear?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The inclusion of the iteration (<em>cooked</em> file) into the DAM/Catalog. That is <strong>optional</strong> with <em>Export</em>.<em> Edit In</em> includes it. And there IS a difference if the image has made the round trip or has been '<em>cooked</em>' (rendered is the proper term)!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, nothing new...And yes, ok, "render" not cooked. This is a forum. As long as the term "cooked" is known in the industry, it is perfectly OK to use it as such. (Lots of lecturing for the past 11 pages of this post).</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>But again Phil, I thought (and I asked you repeatedly to explain exactly what you're unhappy with, your specific steps), I thought the issue was, whether the iteration tracked in the DAM or not. And the last time I asked, you got huffy with me. You've taken this discussion to so many places without specifics, added terms like "cooked" that I'm as confused as ever about just what you're having issues with. I (we) are trying...</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think the confusion happened when my original post which was part of even and earlier post from <strong>Page 1</strong>...</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>Yes, there is a need to sync up.</strong> unless you saved the file in the same format. (unlikely) BUT, I would think MANY if not most users who open the file in PS as it defaults to TIF (as it likely should), If you do some <strong>edits with layers and want to save it as PSD then you HAVE TO SYNC</strong>... And don't tell me how I can save a layer TIF file...Thats the last thing I want to do is mix up flat TIF print ready files withs layered TIF files.</em><br /><em> So, yes you DO need to sync if you want to save it anything else. The likely usage.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>....was either ignored or... missed? (I read the above a few times to make sure it is obvious and specific not just to me). The first sentence alone is specific. But I can see you are surely a teacher and writer, so instructing is your first instinct. Not helpful to me. Many other new users or adaptive users, yes, sure.</p>

<p><strong>I am glad to finally here your response of a "NO"</strong> (not possible). Your post...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>With that command, Edit In,no.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><em><strong>That is all. this "case" is closed.</strong></em><br /> -----------------<br /> I originally posted to point out a few reasons why LR <strong>IS</strong> intrusive in the way some work. I think I made my point and those that have wrestled with LR, understand this.<br /> I am always hopeful that Adobe will enhance these areas and perhaps adopt a Browser. This of course introduces things LR doesn't want to be. <br /> This is not a matter of knowing how to use the program. Its how the program is limited to some photographers existing workflow. Unless you give up your workflow, LR might not work for you. These maybe small looking initially, yet are the infrastructure of how your files are available (to some degree stored and certainly accessed).<br /> All other points from page 1, are also issues I have in using the program to its full potential. <br /> We could actually delete all this in between :-)<br /> <strong>Your last paragraph I hope is for "new" or "general audience" reading.</strong> I am sure they will find it useful.<br /><strong>Unfortunately there has been nothing you have typed that I don't already know. </strong><br /><strong>You have encouraged me to use TIF more so over PSD, which is another push from one more person who understands what they are talking about. Thank you. </strong><br /> <strong>This unfortunately doesn't solve the inherent problems with a closed DAM...<br /></strong><br /> I hope I was helpful to showing you where LR is limited for some uses and users. Why many prefer other editors(without a DAM) as they want a browser to see their actual files and folders.<br>

I apologize for getting huffy at any point. It isn't directed to anyone. Just dealing with the program, and trying to get my point across taking much longer than I thought. :-)<br>

<br /> Further more...<br />Image cataloging is not the raw developers job, but IF it can coexist <strong>without</strong> excluding some file formats for this matter, and not lock out what is really living in the folders, thus hindering existing workflows, we can all be happier...This is why we will have more than one program for all.<br /> <br />I wish you the best on your shoot.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>That is all. this "case" is closed.</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p><em><br /></em>The case that is closed is the incorrect, wrong statement:<em><strong>Yes, there is a need to sync up.</strong></em><br>

<em><strong> </strong></em>and<br>

<em><strong>You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time.</strong></em><br>

There is no such need if you use the product correctly and as designed. I just tested it AGAIN with a virgin catalog, LR5, CS6. IF you setup your <em>Edit In</em> preferences and tell LR you wish a TIFF, you get a TIFF in the catalog after saving the file from Photoshop. If you setup another<em> Edit In</em> preference for PSD, you get a PSD. There is no need to sync up anything, never was. Several of us reported this and the behavior hasn't changed. <br>

You were not ignored. As for misread? Perhaps, the writing is quite unclear IMHO. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>The first sentence alone is specific.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The first sentence I see is this:</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>Yes,<em> there is a need to sync up.</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's one sentence, it's not correct.<strong> There is no need to sync up. If you setup the preferences and ask for a TIFF, you get a TIFF and if you ask for a PSD you get a PSD and if ask for a JPEG, you get a JPEG and all end up in the catalog without the need to sync. </strong><br>

You can circumvent this. You can conduct a <em>Save As</em> and while you asked for a TIFF, you can end up with a Photoshop PDF if you select that! This has zero to do with Lightroom! The format you save the data in that doesn't match the command you selected (Save as TIFF) or for that matter, using the <em>Save As</em> and saving in another location will circumvent what you asked LR to provide initially. And that document will NOT be 'sync'ed' to the catalog <strong>by your own doing</strong>. You can call using the product incorrectly or from it's design as <em>Intrusive</em> but the fault is your own! <br>

<em>Edit In</em> sends the full resolution of the raw to Photoshop unlike <em>Export</em>. IF while in Photoshop you size the image down to 200x200 pixels, that's all you Alan, not LR. Once in Photoshop you are free to do whatever you wish. It is your responsibility now. If after editing the image you simply save it, the format you asked for will be honored and, that document will be sync'ed to the catalog. Period.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I hope I was helpful to showing you where LR is limited for some uses and users.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No but a product used <strong>incorrectly</strong> appears to the uneducated user to be limited. If you want a certain format in the round trip from LR to Photoshop, that's provided if you use the product correctly. If you want the data cataloged, after, there is a command for that. If you don't want the data cataloged, there is a command for that too. If you want both a TIFF and PSD from <em>Edit In,</em> that's possible. If you select TIFF and you wanted PSD, it's your fault! Period. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Image cataloging is not the raw developer job...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's like saying Type isn't the image editors job so we should pull out the Type tool from Photoshop? IF you don't want to use a raw developer that is also a DAM, there's a product for that from Adobe. It's called ACR. <br>

Bottom line however is simple and yes, the case is closed. The idea that:<br>

<em>You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time...</em> Is blatantly incorrect. Can we move on?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I think I made my point and those that have wrestled with LR, understand this.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I submit if they are doing as you have described to produce a document type not setup in preferences and not cataloged after, they are <strong>missunderstanding</strong> this, big difference. </p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong><em><strong>Yes, there is a need to sync up.</strong> unless you saved the file in the same format. (unlikely) BUT, I would think MANY if not most users who open the file in PS as it defaults to TIF (as it likely should), If you do some <strong>edits with layers and want to save it as PSD then you HAVE TO SYNC</strong>.</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> Here's the full sentence from "page 1" with that period after "up" but it shows how you don't understand a few key points here, hence your incorrect handling and results.<br /> 1. Of course, you don't have to sync up.<br /> 2. You don't have to save a PSD if you want layers.<br /> 3. There is no force of TIFF on the user within Photoshop, there's no default, it's sticky. The document rendered <strong>from</strong> LR is floating in memory and isn't any more a TIFF or PSD as it is an Illustrator or Word Doc. When you save, you get what you asked for within <em>Edit In</em>! You selected the format for Save within the <em>Edit In</em> preferences and that's exactly what you get. If you don't understand the differences between TIFF and PSD, if you think you <strong>must</strong> save PSD when you added layers but you built the<em> Edit In</em> asking for TIFF and now you circumvent that, and you don't get the image in the catalog, <strong>that's user error in several places</strong> (configure of <em>Edit In</em> preference's, misunderstanding of layer's and what formats are supported, saving in a format that wasn't what you asked for initially). <br /> In short, nearly all of the bolded sentence above is incorrect. Sorry. Those are the facts.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong><em>...unless you saved the file in the same format.</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's what the <em>Edit In</em> preferences do. Set them correctly (for what you want). That's what you'll get with no sync needed.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong><em>I would think MANY if not most users who open the file in PS as it defaults to TIF (as it likely should), If you do some <strong>edits with layers and want to save it as PSD...</strong></em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Those many users would be wrong, you do not have to save as PSD. But either way, if you want PSD, set <em>Edit In</em> for PSD and that's exactly what you'll get. Nothing broken here. And there is no default to TIFF, the default is what you asked for within <em>Edit In</em>.</p>

<p>Please Phil, just let him have the last word.</p>