photographing a large group with 1 speedlight and umbrella

<p>Hello! <br>

I have tried to research this online but have not found a whole lot on this so I thought I would ask in here. This is my first year photographing weddings and so far I have shot 4 weddings on my own. I am always trying to think ahead for any scenario that may come up and wanted to know how you would photograph a group of 10-20 people inside with 1 speedlight and a white umbrella. I am just curious how everyone else would approach this. I am thinking I would set up the umbrella to camera right up high bouncing into the umbrella and using it on ETTL. I would love to hear how other photographers would do this and why? Would you shoot through or bounce? Is ETTL okay to use or would you manually shoot it? I just want a quick set up so that it doesn't take me too long. I do have an assistant but I think setting up a bunch of lights could take a long time. Would love all your suggestions! <br /> </p>

<p>I would shoot through to maximize the spread of light. And if you're using one light, I would keep it very close to the camera axis, maybe even right above the camera. If you have an assistant, why not set up a second speedlight (which you have, right, because you have backups for every piece of important gear) on a stand with an umbrella ready to go, then have your assistant get both lights set up -- shouldn't take more than a minute or two -- and you'll increase your chances of even light significantly. You didn't mention the size of your umbrella, but obviously the bigger the better. I use two 60" for groups of that size and get great coverage.</p>

<p>Since I don't shoot groups like this with speedlights, I will not comment on whether or not a single speedlight can give you good light on 10-20 people. But my guess is that you'll really do better with two lights, even if the second light is in your hotshoe as fill.Then you could move the main (in the umbrella) away from the camera a bit to get some modeling on faces.</p>

This is one of those shots that can scare you. First off you need to set the flash at Full Power and set the

body to F5.6 or so. No higher then F8. Then around 60th of a second with the camera. Don't go ETTL. A lot of the shots won't turn out. I would shoot through a white umbrella, avoiding bouncing. Your flash may not have enough power

to bounce.

 

What size is your umbrella? What color is it? Can you shoot through it or is it a true reflective umbrella?

 

The far end of the sides you may experience light fall off. People getting darker towards the sides. It's a rail pains taking adjustments fixing light fall off on people.

 

I need more information.

<p>Just curious, <strong>Bob</strong>: why not shoot at anything above f/8?</p>

<p>Just in case this isn't painfully obvious already, if you do end up underexposing a little, make sure you're shooting in RAW. The RAW editor can help boost that very easily, and then you can have a lower ISO so you don't get as much grain.</p>

Here's how I shoot 90% of any groups I have to do. One flash on camera with a Gary Fong either half bounced or direct.

Second light also with a Gary Fong on a stand near me feathered/adjusted so that it balances the best on the group. I can

shoot at F11 if I need the extra DOF, but usually I stay around 5.6 1/2 @ 1/60 no problem and the light is simple and

clean. Over the years coming from film I have used numerous combinations of strobes and flashes, umbrellas and boxes

etc. of varying power capabilities. When you're on a fast moving, often unpredictable job, keep it simple and clean. A

problem to keep in mind is to be able to get up higher sometimes, so you might want to bring along a sturdy step device.

Avoid chairs and other makeshift props, they can be very unsafe. Also, I try to avoid shooting with too wide a lens. I try to fit the groups using the longest lens that works. So sometimes I shoot some with 35, some with 25, some at 50 (DX). I avoid 18 at all costs, If I know I need a big giant group, I will use the Hasselblad on a tripod with 60 or 50 fle also and have the film scanned, the edges will be much better overall.

I'd get a higher powered light for starters, like a Paul C. Buff Einstein E640.

Peter Cohen , Mar 22, 2014; 11:16 a.m.

Just curious, Bob: why not shoot at anything above f/8?

 

The flash may not be powerful enough. Thats the only reason.

<p>I have 2 600ex's and shoot with a 6d so I would have the 2nd one on the camera. I have pocket wizards but they do not work on the 6d. I also have a 1600 alien bees but would never bring that big clunky thing to a wedding.<br>

Dave, I also use a the Lightsphere collapsible on the flash that is mounted on my camera bouncing if I am able and love it. I have not thought of using one on the off camera for group portraits. What do you mean by feathering? Do you use the lightsphere on the off camera flash with the dome on pointing up or do you have it position straight at them? Do you have the flash on full power?<br>

Thanks for all the responses! </p>

Hi Jennifer, I'm actually heading out, I will answer you later.

Jennifer Clapp , Mar 22, 2014; 04:26 p.m. Jennifer wrote "I have 2 600ex's and shoot with a 6d so I would have the 2nd one on the camera. I have pocket wizards but they do not work on the 6d."

 

Jennifer, you are correct about the 6D body with no built in slots/fittings connecting to the Pocket Wizards.

 

HOWEVER!!! GREAT News! You can connect a Pocket Wizard cable from your Pocket Wizard to your flash! So the cable goes from the camera flash unit to your pocket wizard and you can velcro the PW to the flash or you can buy a 1 foot coiled cable which extends to your pocket. $10 for the cable. I use this setup, however with a Quantum flash. So on your 600 flash unit there is a built in connection for you, hidden under that small black rubber cap.

 

I hope this may help you and others with the same set up. You can also use the 580 flash. So the only thing left to do is plug in the Pocket Wizard Receiver to the off camera light(s).

 

I almost always use the off camera flash as my main flash and the On-camera flash is my fill.

 

Will this setup work for you?

Needless to say, you are the photographer and you are the one setting up your lighting effects. I'm not fond of the Gary Fong system. For 2 reasons. The first is his attachments warm the photo's. So you will get different shades of warming effects. If you are using off camera lighting and the Fong attachment with the on camera flash, well this really compounds trouble. The second reason is you lose about 2 F-stops. You will need to increase the ISO, but you may get even more warming and non warming images.

 

I'm after consistency and I want to be out of converting the RAW files in photoshop as fast as I can. I hate this kind of work! If everything is of the same consistency I can go into the RAW settings, batch select 100's of images at one time and warm them up if I wish to.

 

On my camera I use a pre-set button and this button is already set for a small degree of warming.

They only warm the photos Bob if you use the warm attachment. Other wise if you follow Fong's directions for white

balance etc, they are no problem. I use GF all the time for all kinds of things and never have a problem. As for feathering

light, sometimes its not a good idea to direct light right at the subject so for example I might use the black collapse hood

with the white cone and only bleed it in toward the group as much as needed until I get the desired result. Aiming direct is

sometimes to hot in spots and blairy. You can also use a bigger studio strobe in a regular soft box and just feather the

light so that you're only working more with the penumbra of the light and again nit the full on blair of it like a headlight.

Test everything out for yourself and write down what you like best. We all work a little different, you have to be

comfortable.

Dave you may be correct, it could be my camera, the lens coating, something like that. Do me a favor if you get a chance and check out Gerry Fong's example/tutorials, the one with Gary photographing the bride sitting against an inside hotel seat. There is a warming color change; however maybe this was corrected in post. Either way, this is why I stay away from light diffusers in general. He's made millions so these filters must do something right! Added to this, his filters don't fit on my Quantum flash units and the Quantum Kelvin Temperature Rating of 6100 degees. Average flash ratings, such as the 580 Canon flash unites can be around 5100.

 

Yes it's a crazy science that can drive one nuts.

 

Thanks for looking Dave. Take care

<p> I had to do that one time when one of my flashes went down. I put the umbrella and one flash on a monopole and had an assistant hold it way above me and behind. I also adjusted the group to prevent some fall-off on the ends.</p>

<p> It turned out pretty good and got me through it.</p>

<p>Lots of advice. To repeat some of it, lighting a large group with a speedlite isn't ideal no matter how you modify it. I would not use a shoot through umbrella as too much light is wasted and you don't have a lot of power with a speedlite to begin with. There are numerous lighting solutions far cheaper & more powerful than a TTL speedlite when it comes to lighting a group.<br>

For wedding formals, I would never use TTL. The point to TTL flash is allowing the system to determine flash output. Flash output varies on ISO, aperture, and distance of flash to subject (TTL will also vary on reflectivity of the subject). None of these apply (or should apply) when shooting formals so manual flash is the fastest, easiest and delivers the most consistent results.<br>

Really, the very best thing you can do is <em>learn lighting.</em> It's fundamentally critical to good photography. Whether using ambient, flash, TTL flash etc. Learning lighting answers the question of why (or even if) you should use an umbrella, what type and so on. </p>

<p>10-20 people is not a large group really, getting 100 people or more in one shot would be.</p>

<p>Easier is to do it outside instead.</p>

<p>Inside I'd using the minimum of kit I'd shoot it with one umbrella, the bigger the better. Something like a 60" white shoot through on a decent stand like 12 feet manfrotto 004.</p>

<p>First I figure out where I want to shoot the group and where I want the light stand. Probably a little to my right aiming it at the left side of the group for more even exposure. I'd set the flash on manual 1/2 power first - cause I want control over recycling speed, then I'd raise it up.</p>

<p>I'd use a flash meter to check that I have even exposure from the flash no matter where I stand (I stand in the place where the people would). Aiming for f4 or so I check what kind of ISO I would need and if that is reasonable. Say that the flash meter says ISO1600 then I'd be OK with that.</p>

<p>Then I'd use the light meter to check ambient light levels and what kind of shutter speed I would need. I'd probably underexpose ambient by a stop. If the shutter speed would be between 1/60 up to 1/180 or whatever max sync speed is on my camera I'd be satisfied.</p>

<p>I dial in my settings on the camera, ISO 1600, f4, f/125. Then I take a test shot of a willing person. I'd check the balance between flash and ambient, especially on the face. If the shadows are too dark, I'd slow down the shutter speed a little to get more ambient exposure.</p>

<p>I'd like to use a tripod when shooting groups because I can look at the people instead of looking through the lens so I'd set that up as well. Also a lot easier with a tripod if I need to replace a head or something from another shot because someone was closing their eyes. But since I shoot manual there are no preflashes so even the most notorious blinkers will have a hard time. After the test shots I'm ready for the group shot and all in all it would take around five minutes to set everything up if the gear at hand. The flash meter saves a lot of time if you know how to use one.</p>

<p>I make a few shots with the big group (always shooting three frames at the time). Then since everything is setup it would be a simple thing to shoot some smaller groups as well in the same location.</p>

<p>If I had a lot of smaller groups, say 2-3 persons each, to shoot I'd put some tape marking in the floor where they would stand. Then it could only take 30 seconds or so to shoot each small group, giving them some quick pointers on how to stand and what not. I'd have my assistant help out with this.</p>

<p>Whether a single speed-light will provide the results you want depends heavily on what level of ambient light is available.</p>

<p>If indoors, the ambient is more likely to be low and of a color temperture that doesn't match the daylight temp of a speed-light. The slower the shutter speed and/or the higher the ISO set on the camera, the more the ambient plays a role … including lighting direction which you have no control over, and the color temp which can be multiple temps from various artificial sources.</p>

<p>Outdoors, you have less, or no color temp issues because it is daylight color, but you can face brighter back-lit scenarios where a speed-light just isn't up to the task of lighting a large group. If you shoot in a shaded area surrounded by trees and bushes, and just use a small amount of fill flash, the skin tones can become infected by green reflected ambient light. </p>

<p>If you are shooting a large group of 20 or so, and presumably using a focal length that doesn't distort the people at the edges of the frame, then you are most likely going to be some distance from the subjects rather than right on top of them. That means the off-camera light will also be at some distance to keep it out of the taking frame. </p>

<p>At distance the difference between a bare speed-light and one modified by an umbrella is next to nil. Both are small light sources at distance. The only real difference is that the umbrella will waste what little lighting energy a speed-light can muster. To be an effective gentle wrap-around quality of light, a modified source of light has to be both big and fairly close to the subject. So, a large umbrella CAN be effective when shooting just a few people because you can get the modifier closer to the subject.</p>

<p>Another solution is to gang more than one speed-light in a modifier to either increase to total lighting energy available, or to lower the power level of each one for faster recycle.<br>

<br>

Setting the position of the lighting can also be tricky at a wedding, and no one formula works for every shot.</p>

<p>For example, with a traditional formal of the Bridesmaids on one side of the B&G and Groomsmen on the other, it is better to have the key light on the men's side and feather it toward the woman's side because of the darker clothing worn by the men … I even slightly aim the on-camera fill light toward the men's side.</p>

<p>Or if there is a stronger source of ambient from one direction, then it is better to place the key light on the opposite side to balance it out more.</p>

<p>Bob is right, in most cases set the off-camera speed-light to maximum manual <strong>unless</strong> there is an abundance of ambient. However, be aware that many speed-lights have thermal protective circuits that will shut down the light if it gets too hot. </p>

<p>All the above actually points to Ellis' advice … if you want to use lighting for optimal results, a strobe will always outdo a speed-light, and will work in far more situations where a speed-light cannot help much at all. </p>

<p>Marc</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>At distance the difference between a bare speed-light and one modified by an umbrella is next to nil. Both are small light sources at distance. The only real difference is that the umbrella will waste what little lighting energy a speed-light can muster.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's debatable at best. The head of a typical speedlight is 3x1.5" so an area of 4.5 square inches. A 60" umbrella is 2830 square inches. You need to place the umbrella 25 times further away than the speedlight for them to appear the same size, and become equally hard light sources.</p>

<p>A larger light source is also less specular light source. Given that a 60" umbrella is about 630 times larger than a bare speedlight that means that the specular highlights will be 9 stops less bright. So shiny foreheads will not stand out in the same way.</p>

<p>It's obvious that a real strobe would be much better, primarily because it's brighter. But the difference between a 600Ws strobe and a speedlight is about 3 stops as the same light spread.</p>

<p>That's a disadvantage a speedlight user would have to work around. For instance by pushing the dof to be on the short side you could perhaps gain a stop. You would not pose the people on wide line forcing you to work from far away but rather use different poses, get creative and work closer. If you could shoot a little wider focal length you could move closer with the light source and perhaps gain another half stop. The rest of the power difference you would have to compensate by shooting at higher ISO. Instead of going iso 100 or iso 200 you would work at iso 400 or iso 800 or however high you need to go.</p>

<p>Given the issue of recycling speed I think it would be much wiser to start at half power - if you can get a reasonable exposure. If you can't you have to go to full power, but that would be the last resort. It's safer to shoot at a higher iso and perhaps put some extra noise reduction on the final photo than it is to overheat or even blow the flash and stand there like a fool and have nothing.</p>

<p>The OP asked about a single speedlight and an umbrella. Not what the optimal solution would be if one would have unlimited resources.</p>

<p>Here is Niel's take on shooting groups and formals indoors with speedlights and umbrella.<br>

http://neilvn.com/tangents/wedding-photography-positioning-flash-formals/<br>

He uses two speedlights and that should be an option also for the OP since a backup flash is always needed. One could gang them together using ball bungees. It's fast and works well but not as pro looking as a real mounting bar.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Pete S, as I mentioned in the first line of my post … it all depends on the ambient light you are shooting in. My reference to an umbrella and bare speed light was in context to outdoor use … pulling it out of context and going to great lengths and using questionable math to discredit it is simply unproductive.</p>

<p>I suggest the OP just try it and see what works. Be sure to anchor that 60" umbrella "Sail" really well … LOL!</p>

<p>Indoors, working at ISO to 800 <em>or beyond</em> for indoor group shots is less optimal for a number of reasons … color shift and increased noise being two major reasons … just because some cameras can do it doesn't mean it is something to strive for. Increase the light rather than decreasing the image quality.</p>

<p>Which is why I already suggested ganging 2 speed-lights together if a strobe is out of the question.</p>

<p>As to people like Ellis suggesting a strobe solution even though the OP asked for something less … what's wrong with suggesting a better solution? It does get tiring listening to all of the justifications that contribute to the use of "<em>just enough to get by</em>", rather than improving ones work and craftsmanship.</p>

<p>- Marc</p>

<p> </p>