withholding images from wedding

<p>My photographer at Lola Loves Photography is withholding my wedding photographs because I put a status on facebook telling people how annoyed I was that after 5 months I had still not received my CD of images.<br>

She was paid a deposit before the wedding and the remainder in cash the day after the wedding, she was paid for travel expenses, she stayed at my house the night before the wedding, and we paid for her 'luxury' hotel room on the night of the wedding.<br>

I never signed a contract with her, I never received a receipt. All I have is an invoice, emails and facebook messages. </p>

<p>I was promised the images would be sent out over and over again, but they never came. Then she deleted her facebook page and her private profile, I could no longer log into her website to view my images and when this happened I took to facebook to tell my friends what was going on and how unhappy I was about it. <br>

I have told her numerous times that I will take legal action against her, she asked me to remove personal comments on facebook and said she would send out the images once I did this.<br>

I removed all personal comments and gave her 7 more days to send the CD, it is now day 7.<br>

She is ignoring my calls, I am blocked on facebook, she lives 4 hours from me. Is small claims court the way to go? <br>

She said in one of her emails she 'was not contractually obliged to send me anything'<br>

P.s this girl was an online friend of mine through a parenting group for 4 years before she shot my wedding, she'd done a boudoir shoot as a pre-wedding thing (which she also took a long time to send out), so with her being a 'friend' it's a bit more hurtful that she has done this to us.</p>

<p>any advice is appreciated. Thanks</p>

<p>My first piece of advice to you is not to include her business name in your original posting (as this is a public forum). You probably should post under an alias as well.</p>

<p>Sigh. This message should be posted on all the sites that brides visit, as a cautionary tale.</p>

<p>I'm sorry about your problem, Rhiannon, and I'm not sure what to tell you. The things I'd like to have told you before you hired this person (like have a contract, check her references or at least view her past work, etc) aren't helpful now, obviously. </p>

<p>•</p>

<p>What you should do at this point may depend to some extent on what will work with this person. In other words, threats of legal action work with some people, while other people, when threatened, just dig in and dare you to carry out your threats. My own view is that threats really need to be a last resort. In a sense the photographer is holding your photos hostage. If the photographer were holding your pet poodle hostage, you'd probably not make threats, well, not if you cared about getting your poodle back alive.</p>

<p>Have you seen <em>any</em> images? And has she given you any reason for the delay (e.g. she's been sick, her husband left her for a better photographer, whatever)? I take it she's not asking you for more money.</p>

<p>•</p>

<p>I don't really know if she's legally required to send you anything. You might be able to sue her to get back the money you paid her, but that's not quite the same legal problem. There <em>are</em> verbal contracts, but one of the big problems with verbal contracts is proving that one existed; that's part of the reason for signed, written contracts. And then there are other technical legal issues, like the "statute of frauds". I'm not a lawyer but I did go to law school, and my dim recollection of the statute of frauds is that it says that, if more than a specific amount of money is involved (is it $500? I'm not sure) then the contract MUST be in writing, and absent the written contract, there's NO contract. In which case, you're out of luck on that front. Of course if you really do want to sue her, then you should talk to somebody who is a lawyer and get the correct info from them. </p>

<p>If you paid her <em>in cash</em> and didn't get a receipt, well, God bless you.</p>

<p>The lack of a contract doesn't mean that you and the photographer don't have a sort of "morally binding agreement". Law isn't the whole of life (not yet anyway). So your best bet really would have been to coax the photos out of the photographer.</p>

<p>This is just me, but I think I'd remove the nasty comments from my Facebook site (no matter how deserved you may think them) partly because they obviously didn't have the effect you wanted. Then contact her, apologize (if you can) and try to make peace, then beg her for your photos — finished or unfinished.</p>

<p>And if you have friends getting married, share your sad tale with them, so you can perhaps help others avoid the mistakes that you made.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Will</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"So your best bet really would have been to coax the photos out of the photographer... try to make peace, then beg her for your photos — finished or unfinished."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Agreed.</p>

<p>You regarded her as a friend and made a "friends'" arrangement rather than a business contract. It seems pointless to pursue it as a business matter.</p>

<p>If she hasn't delivered the photos, shut down her Facebook page and blog, and is avoiding you there's probably a reason: personal or family pressures or illness; equipment failure; perhaps the exposures didn't come out as well as she'd hoped.</p>

<p>But since all else has failed, and you have no contract, all you have left is the power of persuasion. At this point I'd suggest dropping all the pressure tactics, and just make it as easy as possible for her. Just ask her, as cordially as possible and without recriminations, to send whatever she has, including unedited raw files and even "mistakes". Heck, offer to send her a pre-paid mailer - perhaps she's hit upon hard times and can't even afford to mail a CD right now.</p>

<p>Then find a good digital editing expert. They can work wonders with seemingly impossible photos.</p>

<p>Friends or no friends, a contract is always critical. I'm so sorry you had to learn that the hard way. Others on this forum have (quite recently) said they were not going to do a contract, and this is exactly why he was told how important it was.</p>

<p>This is most definitely a cautionary tale to go with a seasoned, established professional with a consistent following, reviews, physical address and presence. It's even a cautionary tale about hiring a photographer that's too far away from you. I hope you will get your photographs, but if not, I would take every legal action available to you and <em>follow through with it</em>. Emails and other correspondence <em>can</em> be used in legal proceedings, so don't throw any of those away, <em>especially</em> the ones where the photographer is holding your photographs for ransom if you remove commentary!</p>

"I have told her numerous times that I will take legal action against her."

 

If everything you say is correct and you have a paper trail (receipts, bank statements, emails, etc.) to go along with it,

then go ahead and file a case. You may even want to talk with your local or state district attorney about them filiing

criminal charges against the photographer (theft by fraud).

 

A written contract would have been helpful since, as one of the old Hollywood tycoons once quipped "a verbal contract ain't worth the paper it's written on." But given a sufficient paper trail, evidence (did she ever post an on line gallery that you can access and make screen-shots of? and witnesses, you might have a case.

 

If your city has a TV reporter who deals with consumer complaint charges that's another way to go as well. Also see if

national consumer affairs reporter Clark Howard can help.

 

Is the photographer a member of any professional photographers' organization?

 

Of course we are only hearing your side of the story. Her side might be radically different.

<p>"If your city has a TV reporter who deals with consumer complaint charges that's another way to go as well. Also see if national consumer affairs reporter Clark Howard can help."<br>

<br>

Absolutely. </p>

It's time to get a third party involved.

 

Step 1. Ask a lawyer to send a letter demanding immediate payment. That will show that your repated threats were not

just empty words. A lawyer will do this for a small fee. It no payment arrives, go to the next step.

 

Step 2. Go to small claims court. No lawyers are allowed and access is fast. Since you have nothing in writing and no

receipt for payment, you better hope the photographer tells the truth under oath. Otherwise, the judge may have a

problem finding in your favour. If you have any witnesses to any of your dealings, bring them to court with you. Your

emails may be used as evidence.

 

In the future GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING and GET A RECEIPT or at least pay by cheque.

About not having contract, of some sort, in writing: rhiannon, did you not make any sort of arrangements -- involving things to be delivered for whatever compensation -- via Facebook postings or email?

<blockquote>

<p>"I <strong>never signed a contract with her,</strong> I <strong>never received a receipt</strong>. All I have is an invoice, emails and facebook messages. . . <strong>I have told her numerous times that I will take legal action</strong> against her . . . <strong>Is small claims court the way to go?</strong>”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>IF you choose a legal path as a resolution, then the best legal path for you to pursue will depend upon many things, one primary element being where the wedding took place (i.e. where you live). This is an international forum and comments from folk living in one country might not be applicable if one resides in another country.</p>

<p>In any case, wherever you live, I think that you lost a lot of leverage in this situation. Specifically, firstly you have no contract and no receipts; secondly you have publically threatened legal action, without, (it appears), firstly getting legal advice on the matter.</p>

<p>A legal practitioner in your local area should supply advice about whether the Small Claims Court is a good option for you and I suggest that you specifically ask <strong>what outcomes would be possible from that route; </strong>and specifically ask <strong>what chances this legal action may have in getting the photos.</strong> Legal action is often a good option for getting compensation, but if you what the photos, other paths might better serve you, such as keeping open the negotiating/conversation with the Photographer or having someone negotiate, on your behalf.<br>

<br>

WW </p>

<p>While you may not have an actual contract per se, ANYTHING you have that is written or sent to you, even if it is a text or FB screen picture capture, is admissible in US courts as evidence of liability for service. Not being a lawyer-and not pretending to be- precludes me from giving you any more advice than has been given me by actual contract attorneys, but they all will say that given the state of technology today, there are other means in which either Party can enter into a binding agreement with one another. Barring the actual existence of a contract you may be entitled to your money, but I would not hazard a guess on the state of your images.<br /><br />While that's all fine and good for your legal prospects, I suspect that barring any of the things you've mentioned, unless the invoice has a business name or address-physical address where a summons may be served, you are truly out of options.<br /><br />I would say that it's a terrible place to be if you are the cautionary tale, but you can take some small "greater good" satisfaction over warning others around you from the path you took.</p>

<p>E Rin and Benoit's response is the advise I would have offered had I responded to this thread. Suggest you watch a bit of TV - Judge Judy; People's Court; Judge Joe Brown - as situations silimar to this are often shown and it will give you a notion of how this will go down. I'd predict, though, that "step 1" will get you your product or a refund without too much arguement.</p>

"Step 1. Ask a lawyer to send a letter demanding immediate payment. That will show that your repated threats were not

just empty words. A lawyer will do this for a small fee."

 

 

I suspect that you might have a friend who is an attorney (or barrister) who has experience with contractual or business

law. Have them write the demand letter and specify a delivery date.

 

That may be all (hopefully) that it takes to get the photographer's attention and deliver. Ask for the full set of originals on

DVD, CD or Blu-Ray media. Specify that you want the raw format files (If they shot them). You can find someone to

process them for you if necessary.

<p>I'd third WW's "try to convince, not threaten" but I think you are far beyond that.</p>

<p>At this point (and at this point I'm going to say that you shot yourself in the foot) there are only a few things you can do:<br>

1) sue her in small claims court - just be aware that your only likely remedy is money (not your pictures) with email correspondence, and the specifics (like you paid for her room, and expenses) you likely have a preponderance of evidence.<br>

2) visit her in person - yeah, I know its a drive, but are your pictures worth that? Go prepared with a flash drive in one hand (ask for them as is), and your hat in the other (with a fair amount of cash stuffed inside). Be apologetic, be sympathetic, be understanding -kiss up! convince her that you have no hard feelings, you just want the pics -AS IS - even raws, and are willing to make it worth her while. 10 $100 bills will speak volumes if you lay them on the table one at a time as you are speaking. (I would also record this conversation, digital voice recorders are cheap, and her confirming on tape the terms of your verbal contract, allows you to refresh your memory about what was said, while it may or may not be admissible in court, knowing it is recording will keep you ...sane... and allow you to refresh your memory/details if you go to court.)</p>

<p>While she may say she is not contractually obligated, she took money, and promised you pictures. Most every court in the land considers that a binding contract, though the details may need to be hashed out.</p>

<p>Obviously taking the cheap route will cost you in the end. But it's kind of like complaining about the smell after you chose to walk through dog crud. Suck it up, and try to make the best of it, you were the one who hired her.</p>

<p>Recall that Facebook isn't the only form of advertising that most photogs do. WeddingWire, and their ilk all have 'complaint' processes far better for you than facebook.</p>

<p>I would not bring any more money to this person. I did a quick search on them to see if anyone had reported anything, and if the name of the organization you used is accurate, this is someone who has quite deliberately disappeared from public view. Their site is no longer publicly accessible (who even does that?) but rather is a private-only site. This smells of a crook to me. It looks like you have been had. Do not give them any more money, in fact, you should be going for the throat. Take them to court, call the press, do everything you can. The fact that they would tell you to remove a bad review or you wouldn't get your pictures is already indicative of someone who isn't acting in your best interests. Everything about this is fishy to me, and it hurts the credibility of our industry. I hope you nail her up to the wall for this.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>10 $100 bills will speak volumes if you lay them on the table one at a time as you are speaking.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> Yes. It will say "I'm completely out of my mind."</p>

<p >Also one should be aware that in some jurisdictions, it can be a (criminal) offense to record a conversation without consent. </p>

<p >WW<br /></p>

<p>I'm just saying that if you actually want your pictures, there are actually steps you can take that might actually get them back for you. I should have specifically stated that I meant that the OP should be prepared to pay more money if it got him his pics on the spot. He's already up hocky creek without a paddle, if it gets him pictures then that's a win.</p>

<p>If vengeance is more important than the pics, then by all means sue sue, sue some more. Of course the cap for small claims court isn't huge, so don't expect enough money to restage the wedding or anything, but just don't expect to EVER see your pictures. Listen, the bottom line is the OP is right, that they got taken. But they also thought they were saving a bunch of money, and they thought they were getting a sweet deal. boy, talk about just deserts...</p>

<p>"Also one should be aware that in some jurisdictions, it can be a (criminal) offense to record a conversation without consent."<br>

As far as I am aware, this can only ever be criminal if you (doing the recording) are not party to the conversation you are recording. I've never even heard of it being so restricted in a 'business or professional meeting' unless specifically forbidden, but then it's civil. And only a violation of someones privacy if they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. However, the world is fairly large... and somewhere I'm sure you're right. Probably a caning offense.</p>

<p>Hello Marcus,<br /> Briefly on the side issue of recording conversation without consent and the comment and the inference about caning being a punishment for it:</p>

<p>There are various State Laws in Australia. As one example I refer to the Surveillance Devices Act (NSW) and unless there have been recent changes to which I am ignorant; I understand that what I indicted above is correct. However in Queensland it is an entirely different kettle of kippers and I understand a recording device used secretly by a person who is party to a face to face conversation, is quite OK. There are a myriad of (other) laws pertaining to recording telephone conversations and the like; and these mainly relate to the Communications Act, which I believe is Federal and not State based <br /> <br /> In 1995 the New South Wales (Labor) Government introduced an Act prohibiting Corporal Punishment in Public Schools and subsequently NSW was the first state to abolish Corporal Punishment in Private Schools. Corporal Punishment administered by or on the behalf of Parents remains a contentious and much debated issue all around Australia and it seems the (various) sometimes juxtaposed laws are not clear cut, at all.<br /> <br /> Judicial Corporal Punishment was abolished in States and Territories in Australia several years before it was abolished in Schools, but off the top of my head I cannot recall when, exactly.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>With the above also as a background, back onto the topic of the thread:</p>

<p>I made the cautionary comment about secretly recording a conversation, for the same reason as I previously warned about what legal action to choose, would be dependant upon the jurisdiction where the OP resides.</p>

<p>Moreover and specific to this thread: a superficial search reveals that the Vendor concerned might be located in England: and as specifically many NSW Laws (and also many Australian Laws) have much heritage in British Law: but on the other hand, (it appears to me) many USA Laws though fundamentally British in history, seem to have undergone many more changes – and also there is the fundamental influence on the law by the Constitution of the United States.</p>

<p>By the same logic, what happens on typical USA television “Law Shows” whilst they might be a reflection of what to expect <strong><em>if one is in the USA</em></strong>, they might not be a reflection of what might happen in England; or Australia; or New Zealand; or Canada . . .</p>

<p>WW</p>

Just thinking as I write this. I won't get into your Contract issues. Thats over with and it's a dead subject.

 

In Small Claims the law is pretty lenient, mildly tolerant, and the judge is often a lawyer, not a true judge as in a true definition. He's often trying to get experience to becoming a judge, or earning some extra money.

 

You have an email trail, this may be the only evidence needed to plead your case. The truth which hopefully you told your photographer, you've paid all of the required fees so, where's your photos? If the photographer accepts that she was paid in full based on your emails well your judge will surely make a directive ruling in your favor.

 

Hopefully she hasen't lost your images from a bad CF, or an SD card, or a hard drive crash. If her hard drive crashed ask the judge for her to send the drive to Drivesavers.com. Her cost may be $2500 or more if the files can be retrieved. You can use my name and they will send me 10 percent, I'll send the 10 percent to you!

 

I'd file the suit yesterday. Being nice regarding your attitude is now history. Get MAD! Get to the courthouse yesterday and file the Small Claims lawsuit. Get this over with. It takes 20 minute. It's very easy and people working at the court are there to help you. I would think that in most states the person needs to be served and within 6 weeks or less, then you then you will have a court date in a very short time. Within just a few weeks or less.. There is a small fee, under $100 for sure in most states and remind the judge that you need to be fully refunded for the court costs. This can sometimes include the parking fees and of course the serving the person.

 

Oh, you can have the sheriff serve the papers. Or you can save some money and have a a friend serve the person. Thats easy! Your friend can knock on the door of the photographer. When the door is opened you hand her the envelope and say "You've been served." It's really fun! The reactions of people. Yes I've served prople before. Their reactions are always a blast! Your friend says nothing else to the photographer. Reactions are always so much fun!

 

Remember to ask the court person that gives you the papers to fill out "What is the Maximum," amount you can sue for. This varies per state, from or about $3000 to $10,000. Use this maximum amount. I've been to Small Claims, not for photography, but for a silly problem with a gardener using grass killer instead of weed killer. Needless to say he lost. The case was over in 5 minutes. Your lawsuit will also be settled within 10 minutes or so. It's that easy to do.

 

If you want to hire an attorney for emotional stress as well as the photo's I cannot help you. This could add up to a lot of money and the case can drag on and on. After everything is settled, remember that your attorney gets 1/3 or more if you win or lose. Whatever his/her fee's may be. That's scary for me. You could be out of luck without a contract and you still need to pay your atorney.

 

My last comment - If she delivers the images before or after she's been served you need to be paid for you filing the lawsuit and you shouldn't have anymore conversations or emails. You are done. The judge takes over.

<blockquote>

<p> As one example I refer to the Surveillance Devices Act (NSW) and unless there have been recent changes to which I am ignorant; I understand that what I indicted above is correct.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ahhh, ok, ok! fair enough. You are absolutely right - LLMV (local laws may vary). </p>

<p>So I'll amend my original response with "don't do anything illegal where you live..." ;)</p>

We didn't choose her because she was cheap, I was booked with a fantastic local photographer but something came up

and she had to cancel. This other photographer was very similar in style, so I asked her. She was however much

cheaper.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, looking back there's so much we should have done but just overlooked with her being a

friend. So so stupid of us, I know.

 

Thanks for all of your replies, I will let you know what happens.

<p>Ps yes I have gone back through my messages and I have found ones that state what the wedding package is that I paid for, I also have video footage of her at my wedding taking photographs and a video message of her talking about shooting the wedding and being paid etc. along with emails stating that she has the images in her possession but is withholding them from me. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>That she says that she has images, is at least a good sign that there are images that you might get.<br /> I think that you need to think through what the MAIN outcome is, that you want - be that the images or a monetary resolution, i.e. your money back and some compensation.</p>

<p>IF it is mainly the images that you want, then, from what has been disclosed I think that you still have a good chance of getting them by politely and firmly coaxing her to give them to you, even if the images are not 'finished'.<br>

<br /> As the next step, I agree with Marcus and I would indeed go and attempt to visit her, (with a few flash drives in hand) but one needs to be a certain personality type to do that and be able to keep removed emotionally from the situation. If you cannot divorce yourself emotionally, you might have a friend or relative who can do the talking for you.</p>

<p>Good luck with it.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>I just want my photos William. I have emailed her and begged for the cd of images. No reply. Only time I get a reply is if she hears I have been talking about it on facebook (someone was obviously on my facebook friends list and sending her screenshots of conversations) <br>

Am I wrong in thinking that I am free to talk about what is happening, as long as everything I say is true? She accused me of defamation, which I have not done, as far as I am aware defamation is a false statement, and nothing I have said has been false. It has all been a true account of my experience with her. </p>

<p>In my opinion she has no intention of sending out the CD, ever. I think if I were to go to her house she would just call the police. </p>

<p>Yes I am in the uk, and I do have an acquaintance who is a solicitor so I have sought legal advice, but was interested, from a photographers point of view, in the other routes I could take without going to court, as I do not want to just get my money back, my main goal is to get the images and never have to deal with her ever again. </p>

<p>Regards R.</p>