Nikon Refurbished

<p>There have been a number of threads about Nikon refurbished products in the past. I want to share another experience so that people can draw their own conclusions. First let me say that I own four Nikon pro bodies. This is not my first rodeo. I have been a Nikon shooter since the early 70's.</p>

<p>I saw an ad on Cameta camera offering a Nikon D3 refurbished for $2K. This comes with a one year warranty. I have had several Nikon refurbished products before including, two or three bodies. Because the D3 is right in the sweet spot for what I do (PJ and sports) I thought I would snag one of these. <br /> Cameta advertises these as "<strong>Have minimal to no use and are in mint or near-mint condition</strong>". <br /> The camera arrived and it indeed does look very nice. It seems to work fine. The thing is that it has 67,237 actuations on it according to Opanda. Further the battery does not test as new. It tests in the reduced life range. My opinion is that 67,237 is definitely not "minimal use". That is over 180 shots a day, every day for a year. That is 280+ shots a day during an average work year. As a working photojournalist I did not average that many doing newspaper work. Or perhaps about that. <br /> I called Cameta and they promptly agreed to take it back and refund my money. They also offered a new battery. I asked if they would check some of their other D3s out and see if they had one with 20K or less but they refused. The snarky comment that I ought to buy a new one was unnecessary. Since I have bought a number of things including pro cameras from them in the past, my decision, if I were them, would be to take care of the good customer. They thought this was too hard. They said they did not open the boxes from Nikon. I guess they made and exception in my case because my box was open when I got it. But in the end that is just a business decision on their part. I have not decided what to do at this point. I am aware that the shutter is "rated" at 300K and that this would be a backup camera for me so not a big issue. I might keep it. It is a smokin' deal. I am disappointed with Cameta. I had previously been a huge advocate for them and used to tell people I ran into at work to go to them for refurbished products. But as their customer service rep said, "we send out thousands of cameras a day" I guess they can afford to lose one now and then.</p>

<p>The larger question is, what constitutes a refurbished product? I called Nikon support to see if I could ask them about it. As any of you who have tried to get any kind of support out of the Nikon call center know, this call center is clueless. They started by wanting proof of purchase. I sent the receipt to them by fax twice and email twice over two days. They couldn't find it until late today. This despite three or four calls on my part. I finally spoke to a "manager" at the call center after having been told frankly outlandish things by two of the three call center people (including a supervisor). Suffice it to say, these folks seem completely untrained. At least the "manager" finally admitted (after telling me that Nikon would never exchange a camera) that nobody at the call center was a decision maker anyway. Sigh...Those decision guys are apparently at Nikon. So I will not get any answers from Nikon because I would be willing to bet that the call center will stonewall this. Oddly I am not angry. Just very disappointed because I (and I am sure many of us here) remember when Nikon service was just fabulous.</p>

<p>I would be curious to know what Mr. Posner and Ms. Oster have to say about this subject in general. They have both been super sources of information over the years.</p>

<p>I hope we can avoid the "you shoudda bought" and technical discussions about "the right camera". I like the D3, have used them extensively, and they do absolutely everything I want them to do. The price point was fine and my experience with Cameta up to this point told me that I would not have a problem.</p>

<p>I do not know who our regional Nikon rep is. Maybe we don't have one. Nikon used to have them. Here is the irony. I know who my local Canon rep is. I have her card in my wallet. Besides. They show up for tons of events in our area, sponsor several, in one of which I participate. I don't take switching brands lightly. I love my Nikons. They get out of the way and let me take pictures. But when you have a load of cameras and use them everyday, service is an issue. Nikon seems to be doing very poorly in that regard lately. They need to get out from behind their desks and go where people take photographs. If I could give the president of Nikon USA one piece of advice it would be this.....Call yourself on the phone.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Helen Oster has posted a number of times about Nikon refurbished products. For example, you can read that yourself on this thread: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00ay28</p>

<p>However, I feel that the picture she paints is a bit on the rosy side. Personally, I have had very bad experience with Nikon USA refurbished lenses, but most of you have probably read my story a few times already.</p>

<p>In your case, since the D3 was introduced in 2007 and then discontinued in 2009 when Nikon replaced it with the D3S, the newest D3 is well over 4 years ago. Given that it has been a professional work horse, the chance is that any used or refurbished D3 you'll find now in 2014 will have at least several tens of thousand actuations.</p>

<p>I'll say I'm surprised, because I buy most of my stuff at Cameta. The difference is I actually live in the town with their brick and mortar store and those guys have always been very helpful. I've bought refurb'd from them in the past. I did have an issue with one lens, but they took it back, sent it Nikon and I got it back within a week or so been using it ever since with no problem. Now, to be fair, where you called is probably the warehouse across town where they do their internet sales, but it also sounds in the beginning of your letter that you were dealing with one rude individual and not the whole company. Unfortunately, good help is hard to find sometimes and it seems like you got the unlucky pick. You could file a complaint with Cameta.<br>

For a sidenote, <a href="http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/nikon_d3.htm">THIS</a> is an interesting link of people who submitted how long their shutters on their D3's have lived or still living. The average is pretty high. </p>

<p>I've often read that the refurbs were "sales samples," "Demos," and etc. It just stands to reason to me that most have to be cameras sent in for repair that were difficult or were sent in several times. Some might have been damaged in shipment etc.--who knows? I have bought several refurbs from Cameta and probably will buy a refurb D5300 at some point. I know I am rolling the dice somewhat, but a $500 hit isn't going to kill me. Cameta does seem to back up their guarantee and care about their reputation. It's a shame that increasingly, Nikon does not. I find Nikon's "impact damage" BS more troubling than Cameta shipping you (and then quickly taking back) a camera with more clicks than you thought it might have.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

<p>If it's been back to Nikon itself and had a full service of all parts and ANY that were deemed sub-perfect should be replaced....I might, might call it a refurb.</p>

<p>But selling it with a half-dead battery, which probably isn't covered in the warranty and 67,000 on the clock for $2000 or £1250 isn't that good a deal.</p>

<p>However, a new battery and a watertight 365 day warranty, I'd probably take it.</p>

<p>If the shutter goes bad after another 30000 on day 320, does it gets replaced free of charge?</p>

<p>I also had good luck with nikon refurbs, a 70-300 VR and a D90. Not sure I'd buy pro gear that way, but who knows.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>However, a new battery and a watertight 365 day warranty, I'd probably take it.<br>

If the shutter goes bad after another 30000 on day 320, does it gets replaced free of charge?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>As I understand Nikon's 90 day warranty and Cameta's on year warranty this is correct. That is why I am reluctant to be critical of them. Besides. A new shutter is about $400.00. Not a deal breaker. I do not, frankly, expect the shutter to fail at all but I have previously had major repairs to my D2 series cameras which were very expensive long before even the 67K that are on this camera. I consider this just the cost of doing business. That said, I do not wish to hasten the process. There is a three year Mack warranty available from Cameta for this camera for about $150.00 and I guess I could inoculate myself against any expense in that regard fairly affordably. (At least to the extent that we assume a Mack warranty actually works.) I did not purchase extended warranties on my other bodies other than the extra year on the D7100 offered super affordably by Adorama. I recently got rid of a D2X because it was not worth the nearly $600.00 repair Nikon wanted to do. I suspect this might be true three years down the road for this camera as well. I suppose my question is more theoretical, regarding what actually constitutes "refurbished" and a cautionary tale for others considering this kind of purchase.</p>

<p>@Rich. I agree about Cameta. I have had nothing but good service from them in the past. I had a good experience speaking with Lou Cohen when I bought this one. I think that you may be correct that there is a difference between their in-store customer service and their on-line service. I have little doubt that if I wanted to walk in and check the actuations on a purchase at the counter that the salesman would have helped me do that. Besides. If the number had been something south of 25K I would probably not have even bothered them. </p>

<p>As I have said. This is a purchase for a back up camera. I will use is primarily for PJ work. The professional bodies are the correct choice for me because of the weather sealing and the voice recorder. I am not going back to pockets full of sticky notes. Nor am I inclined to carry a D4 in a rodeo arena and then deal with the file sizes. Would I recommend that everyone get one of these? Absolutely not. There are far better uses for $2k for most users but this is still a heck of a camera. </p>

<p>There is no way to predict when something will fail or what will fail for that matter. A new body can fail within weeks and a used/refub body can last years and years and may never fail. You just can't possibly know.</p>

<p>Again, since Nikon discontinued the D3 over four years ago, for a pro body that is at least 4, perhaps 5 to 6 years old, having 67K shutter actuations towards an expected 300K shutter life is really not all that high; that is like only 22.3%.</p>

<p>I think the real problem is the description: </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Have minimal to no use and are in mint or near-mint condition</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There was some degree of false advertising that led to expectations that are not met.</p>

<p>However, as long as everything on that D3 is working fine, $2000 is not a bad deal, especially if they are willing to throw in a new Nikon battery, not a third-party one.</p>

<p>I think to be a savvy consumer we need to recognize that in the 21st century there's a fair amount of inflation in advertising claims. I see cars flying around city buildings all the time on TV. I seen things described as near-mint look like they have been out in the rain for a year and then run over by a truck. I would accept a D3 with 67K, a slightly used battery and good cosmetics as minimally used and near-mint. The fact that Cameta is offering an extended warranty and free battery seems to be a goodwill gesture well worth taking.</p>

<p>Regarding 'refurbished' -- my first question is by who? I have purchased 'refurb' products directly from Nikon and Epson and have been completely satisfied. I would not, however, buy a 'refurb' for someone on eBay saying 'refurbished by dealer', etc.<br>

There are no standards except the seller's integrity so Caveat Emptor.</p>

<p>I don't know if this has anything to do with the camera you got , but didn't Cameta recently file for bankcruptcy . They just might be trying to dump stock .</p>

<p>Calumet went bankrupt. I'm pretty sure Cameta didn't.</p>

<p>I'm looking at Cameta's refurb D3 product page and it doesn't make any claims about amount of use or age. They do have a page where they say that <em>all</em> their refurbs "Have <strong>minimal to no use</strong>, and are in mint or near-mint condition" which doesn't seem like a safe thing to say at all. But since, as Shun says, the D3 has been out of production for 4.5 years, I don't think you can expect to find a nearly-unused one anywhere.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Regarding 'refurbished' -- my first question is by who? I have purchased 'refurb' products directly from Nikon and Epson and have been completely satisfied.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think the refurbished Nikon products Cameta sells are refurbished by Nikon USA. Adorama and B&H definitely sell Nikon USA-refurbished ones.</p>

<p>However, I have returned 2 out of 2 Nikon USA refurbished lenses, one through B&H and one through Adorama. A friend of mine returned another one after having me inspect it. It wasn't Adorama or B&H's fault, as they are only the retailers. In particular, my friend's refurbished 70-300 AF-S VR had a focusing mechanism that was completely broken. I wonder how it managed to pass inspection.</p>

<p>I've bought new and refurbished from all the major retailers, but mainly bypassing B&H for some reason.</p>

<p>I had exceptional luck with LA's largest retailer until they went Internet, as they would provide me some phenomenal prices, and their stock was not advertised; it would be shipped in from the factory or Nikon refurbishing department one day without notice, and out the door the next, often into my hot waiting hands, and into my kit.<br>

<br />The only time in half a hundred to a hundred lenses and bodies sold to me by them, that I had an issue was when I tested one 105 mm (I think), it would not autofocus, but Samy's just confirmed it was defective, and replaced it on the spot since I was dealing over the counter, and I had a great reputation as a customer and was well known by certain sales people who would go the extra mile for me.</p>

<p>I have bought from Cameta, Adorama, Samy's especially on refurbished items and the only problems I ever have had (aside from that one lens which was happily replaced on the spot), was a couple of D300 Nikon cameras which had defective battery posts that had intermittent contact that got worse with time and would provide electricity intermittently.</p>

<p> But that happened also with the same model, the D300, which I paid full price for and was not refurbished. It seemed to be a manufacturing defect and extremely hard to diagnose for the full-price cameras and the refurbished cameras. </p>

<p>In one case the Nikon customer rep (after the second or third go-around of my unresolved complaint which they could not replicate) actually asked permission to shoot with the camera for a weekend, and then the problem surfaced, was fixed and never appeared again -- the contact solder was very slightly broken/loose at the battery contact on that (as on other D300 cameras) and the battery juice made intermittent contact (thereafter when I had the problem I just told them what the issue was and the fix, and Nikon repair (then in Manhattan Beach, CA and now in LA) took me at my word and repairs were made almost overnight (they knew I flew in and waited.)</p>

<p>If I have money as an issue, I try to buy refurbished whenever I can; if someone else is paying, even then I try to talk them into buying 'on sale' with rebates if they want the full warranty, or to settle for refurbished . . . . as there's never been a problem with a refurbished product I've bought that I would not expect from a 'new' 'off the factory line' product.</p>

<p>I think Nikon had a special issue with selling their D3 refurbished. I think it may have been a 'sales' and 'manufacturing as well as an 'ethical' issue and I doubt Cameta (which has a great reputation), even knew of the issue.</p>

<p>Samy's within the last half year offered for sale at a relatively cheap price a D3 or D3s, refurbished, but noted it had just over 60,000 shutter clicks, which was the smart way of doing it. However, I suspect that they didn't know the number of clicks until an angry first buyer bought the camera and returned it when he/she tested the clicks independently, as no store I ever have come into contact with even bothers to open the boxes to inspect shutter clicks, as opposed to seeing that the parts are all there as advertised.</p>

<p>With refurbished products, I never have seen one that I've bought that shows ANY signs of wear, lens or body. None with one exception. </p>

<p>I once saw a 'salesman's sample' mixed in with other refurbished lenses, an older lens actually brassed out, that surely had been rolling around in some or another salesman's car trunk as he/she made rounds from one store to another.</p>

<p>Samy's (Fairfax, main store) tried to sell the lens, but with thin margins and the brassed out condition, got universal disapproval and eventually shipped it back to Nikon as 'unsalable' because it was actually in 'bargain' condition on the body (not the optics, however).</p>

<p>I have no problem buying refurbs, because I test them, and so far Nikon West Coast where I go to get them fixed has a policy of not quibbling about the end of the warranty after 90 days if you've called them and confirmed by e-mail the problem before the end of 90 days -- if you bring the product in later, and at the same time, they have a policy (or did) of extending the 90-day period by 30 days anyway . . . . and the same for the one-year camera warranty and similarly with lenses I am recall seeing them do that for customers and tell me why.</p>

<p>In other words, there's ample time for a shooter to test a refurb body and lens, so for able shooters, refurbs are a pretty good deal if the savings is substantial, and for me it always is, or I won't buy refurb, and that's stated up front, so I get the best prices (or I go away).</p>

<p>Also, I don't tie up a salesman's time, make that known in advance, and pay CASH, with no fee for credit cards and/or shipping (in most cases), so the price is 'NET' price to the retailer, so they have no reason to quote me a higher price to reserve for 'eventualities' posed by unknown customers such as high AMEX fees, high shipping, high possibility of returns, and so forth. The more you're a known quanity who deals rationally when dealing in person, the lower price they can offer you IF you're known for not returning things and not taking up their time, paying cash, etc.</p>

<p>I've really been a good, steady customer, and have received great prices, watch the Internet ads before a planned purchase, price shop (try to price match for what it's worth, because most retailers won't), and try to hunt down scarce models being sold refurb, as some almost never come up refurb), and I avoid J&R music, not because of bad experience, but after reading their YELP! review which scared the BeJesus out of me.</p>

<p>All camera stores have their 'issues' from time to time, so if you plan on doing heavy purchases, best to form a relationship, state your needs and be prepared to walk if you don't get the price and service you desire - even if to another day and another sales person, or in the case of Internet sales, to a different stores (or call again - in one store if I get a certain salesman, I just hang up and dial again! -- one of their guys is GREAT and I hope to get him, but cannot be transferred -- store policy.)</p>

<p>Beware of Cameta back room policies that are unstated often at time of sale. </p>

<p>They have a long list of addresses they won't ship to, such as university addresses, mail boxes, mail receiving services, etc., and they often don't tell you until you think you're going to get your purchase, and when you inquire they tell you the only way you're going to get it is to wire funds or send a cashier's check. So don't say you're not warned, students, traveling salespeople, etc.!</p>

<p>Otherwise, they sell the same products as everybody else, and from time to time have the same problems as everybody else.</p>

<p>And as to the D3 problem at issue, since it popped up (with disclosure) at another retailer site, where the camera body was on offer for weeks because informed customers stayed away presumably because of high refurb shutter count, it probably was a Nikon management decision to ship out the D3 refurbs to the retailers who get (one store boss told me) absolutely NO CHOICE or at least little choice about what they get, when they get it, and have little bargaining power over refurbs with Nikon.</p>

<p>I'd ask Cameta for a return shipping slip and send the camera back if it hasn't been too long and ask for a refund or a proper refurb. Under the Uniform Commercial Code it does not match the description of a refurbished product, and you can 'reject the whole'. Any lawyer can tell you about the UCC 'perfect tender' rule; I haven't practiced law since 1988.</p>

<p>And of course point to this thread. </p>

<p>Cameta needs our business, and however prickly their back office can be, they don't need a bad reputation from an organization with a stated 800,000 camera-carrying and buying photographer members who also presumably get asked for their opinion about 'what store should I buy from?' - from relatives, friends and co-workers, as I often am asked. Suddenly 800,000 becomes exponentially larger and more fearsome. Gently remind them of that with a smile and graciously so. . . . remember the adage about honey and vinegar!</p>

<p>Let us know the results of whatever you do, please.</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley)</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>The only time in <strong>half a hundred to a hundred lenses and bodies</strong> sold to me by them</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>John, just curious 'What are you'? A dealer? A supplier to the military?</p>

<p>My 2 cents.....I just purchased a refurbished D800 from Robert's in Indianapolis. I asked what refurbished was and was told samples, display, returns are gone over to Nikon specs and all the accessories would be new. As for actuations I was told they are usually under 2k. The first thing I did when I opened the box was check the actuations. To my surprise the count was 25! I am sure there is a wide range but the original poster was right in returning his D3 with that many actuations. The camera was a bargain at $2300.</p>

<p>Ok, I'll be the devil's advocate.</p>

<p>The D800 has a shutter that is rated to 200K actuations, which is some sort of average or mean number of actuations between failures. If your D800 already has 25 actuations, the expectation is that it has 199975 more to go.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, the D3's shutter is rated to 300K actuations. A D3 already with 67,237 actuations actually is expected to have 232,763 more to go. And the current $2000 price is merely 40% of the original $5000 cost.</p>

<p>But somehow, the person with 232,763 remaining actuations is really unhappy while the one with 199975 is acting like he has struct gold.</p>

<p>I am afraid that we pay way too much attention on shutter actuation counts. The chance is that both refurbished cameras will last quite a while longer.</p>

<p>I have bought used lenses in the past and would definitely consider a factory refurbished lens, but camera bodies scare me. I don't exactly know what is involved in the refurbishing of a camera body, but I doubt a shutter replacement is part of the deal and that concerns me. I wish used camera dealers would post the number of shutter activations (same as odometer reading on used cars) since that is far more important to me as opposed to scratches and cosmetic wear. In years past you could buy a 20 year old fim body and no one worried about the shutter going out because people didn't rack of as many shots as they do today. Now, wedding photographers make 800 exposures a shoot and someone who does time-lapse might crank off a couple thousand frames in a single night. Those are the camera bodies I worry about getting when I buy used and there is just no way to tell beforehand. </p>

<p>I buy Nikon because the manufacturer makes good products at a pretty good value and I'm comfortable with the handling. I don't buy Nikon because of Nikon USA. I buy Nikon despite the US distributor.</p>

<p>As Rick noted, Nikon USA seems obtuse at best and indifferent at worst toward customers. It's difficult to get anything more than an automatic boilerplate response from Nikon USA for any problem or question. The US distributor's customer service seemed better several years ago, but faltered since the mid-2000s. When they actually do the work it seems satisfactory. But communication with Nikon USA is frustrating at best. Perhaps Nikon's very recent announcement regarding a blanket satisfaction policy for the D600 indicates the manufacturer has heard its customers. Hopefully the distributor is paying attention as well.</p>

<p>In general I've found Olympus and Ricoh more responsive to consumers, and I'm impressed with Fuji's reputation over the past couple of years.</p>

<p>Refurbished is a fancy name for used with a 90 warranty !!!</p>

<p>Alan, while that can be true, refurbs are typically items that were returned because they had some type of issue, the issue was corrected and the item is made available for sale in perfect working condition with warranty.</p>

<p>I bought a refurb D300s from Nikon USA and it was sent in for repair the day I received it. I removed it from it's lovely white box and put a battery in it. It was on when I put the battery in. It was still on with the switch turned off. The only way to turn it off was to remove the battery. So I sent it in to Nikon for service instead of returning it. It has been fine ever since I got it back but is now only a backup camera to my D4.</p>

<p>That was my one and only purchase of a refurb and it will be my last. </p>

<p>After a week I got an email from Nikon this AM. They are utterly clueless. They are saying that they still don't have the proof of purchase. Last week they said that they did. It is too bad that Nikon doesn't read this and that there are no longer Nikon representatives other than this pathetic call center. </p>

<p>Up to this point I have been annoyed but not angry. If I were asked I would have to recommend that someone considering a digital camera choose a brand other than Nikon. Certainly no serious amateur or professional should risk it. </p>

<p>If there is such a thing as someone who actually works for Nikon USA and one of the store reps knows him/her I wish they would PM a phone number to me. I will update this thread as this absurdity continues and start another one when I have resolution. Customers need to know this stuff.</p>

Coincidentally, this weekend CBC radio ran a

piece titled "Great customer service doesn't cost

money, it makes money."

 

http://inagist.com/all/449938439165583361/

 

Customer service is one reason Fuji has evolved

from "Oh, sure, our dSLRs are just souped up

Nikons with our magical sensors and slow raw

shooting" into something of a pop culture phenom

within the camera culture. They make spiffy

cameras and seem to pay attention to web chatter

and feedback from users.