bruno_lessen Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Hi, and thank you.</p> <p>I'm asking if it is possible (of course yes, I think) and if it is useful and formative to start photographing with a large format camera, instead of a film/digital 35mm camera or a MF camera.</p> <p>What do you think about? Which aspects would that involve?</p> <p>Thanks</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_layton Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Assuming that the large format camera in question features a decent range of axial and lateral movements, and is at least reasonably sturdy...then I can think of no better tool with which to learn and apply the most basic foundational elements of photography. </p> <p>I've been photographing, teaching others to photograph, and designing/building my own large format cameras for about 40 years. In any college level curricula that I have been involved in designing...I've always insisted on incorporating large format theory and practice, starting with the most "basic" classes.</p> <p>The large format camera, in terms of the "transparency" of its optical/mechanical elements, is perhaps the most simple and basic of all cameras - presenting an ideal platform for exploration (input) and feedback (output) by and to a novice student/practitioner....who over time will come to appreciate this most "basic" tool as being capable, to this day, of offering the most sophisticated/intuitive approach to image creation - as this relates to the control of image geometry and focus - when compared to any other type of camera. </p> <p>So yes...by all means start with a view camera - with the further recommendation that you ensure the continuity of (your own foundational learning and practice) process by taking your large format negatives into a wet darkroom to print. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoresteen Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Lots of photograhers started with a 4x5 monorail or field camera. With a 210mm lens it's what Fred Picker reccomended.</p> <p>By all means you can start with large format. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS1664879711 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Yes, of course you can. That is how many photographers started before cameras became miniaturized, automated, and digitized. What you need to do, as John Layton points out, is learn the basics since you won't have the benefit of automation.</p> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS1664879711 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>p.s. The only disagreement I have with prior statements is about the necessity of movements. Those are both advanced features/techniques and sometimes not as necessary as some make them sound. A press camera, for instance, would be a good learning tool for LF that will support a large range of photographic options yet they offer quite limited movements.</p> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcstep Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>I started with a penhole camera, at 11. My first purchase was a medium format. Of course, everything was manual. I loaded the penhole in the darkroom and processed the negatives in chemicals, used an enlarger to make the prints and processed those in chemicals.</p> <p>This was useful for me because I had to understand every step in the process to get a good print. Would I recommend it to someone else, just starting today? No, at least not in general. Unless you're planning to be a film photographer for some reason, there are lots of steps that are now archaic. To get the complete experience, you need access to a complete darkroom. Even so, you'll be learning stuff that isn't relevant to digital photography. You don't even expose the same way with digital as you do with film. Would your time spent learning to process negatives and print enlargements be better spent learning Lightroom or Photoshop?</p> <p>Bruno, I think that 99% of us are better off jumping straight into digital photography. To get the most out of your cameras and lenses, shoot in Raw and convert to JPEG using a competent program, such as Lightroom, ACR, DxO or the software that comes with your camera. Unless you will stick to film, time spent learning the ins and outs of exposure and processing film will largely be a waste. Learning composition, exposing for digital, and processing digital is what will result in your best digital images and the sooner you start, the better. Imposing an extra step seems foolish to me, unless you need to for some specific reason.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin carron Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Yes, if you are really determined to. Before smaller formats were invented (that is about 1900) everyone started with LF. But it will be an expensive way to start. Not so much the camera but the film and processing. LF is an unforgiving medium where any mistake costs a small but non-trivial amount of money. And you will be compounding your failures due to learning about creating images with failures from learning about the camera and film.<br /> <br /> Another factor is that LF is a fairly restricting medium compared to the more versatile smaller formats. So unless you want to restrict your photography to the fields where LF shines then you will be missing out on some substantial areas of photography.<br /> <br /> So I suggest you start with a suitable digital camera which is versatile and allows mistakes to be made cheaply. Once you have the basics then you can switch to LF. But if you are really determined....</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno_lessen Posted November 15, 2013 Author Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Thank you all. This forum is amazing.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w_t1 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Yes. The aspect most involved would be Patience. </p> <p>If you're a member of the i-anything-facebook-instagram crowd it might now work out for you, though.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_6502147 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>Indeed, patience is one of the main ingredients. It takes time to load film, setting up the camera and often waiting for the appropriate light. If you are unfamiliar with the process, the equipment, etc. I'd suggest you check out various books on the subject (and ask questions)....or go (if you can) with LF photographer on an outing. It will help if you know what sorts of photography you wish to do (fashion, landscape, architectural, portraits, macro...)....so you can purchase the eq with that in mind. As to lenses, and you are totally new to the medium, try to pre-visualize an image/es (several type of software can help). If you used P&S camera, you can easily configure which view you preferred by looking up Exiff info.</p> <p>If you really want to do this....don't let the naysayers slow you down :>).</p> <p>Les</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 <p>No. "to start photographing" (as you say) is best done with a manual small format or medium format camera.</p> <p>Learn the technique and the mental process of perceiving and making photographs, avoid automation, develop your style or approach, avoid wasting expensive sheet film in the process, and when you are happy to call yourself a photographer or artist-photographer by all means switch to large format, especially if you are adept of B&W photography, wherein you can be complete master from start to finished print.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sknowles Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Yes you can but it depends on how much you want to learn and how much money you want to lose with your mistakes (film, handling and processing), but it's a longer, harder road to learn the basics of light, exposure, film and then the camera at the same time where a 35 mm manual film camera would go farther on learning the basics with less expense. Once doing that then it's the matter of learning the LF camera and taking the shot (the always how do you get to Carnige Hall).</p> <p>I would disagree about starting with the negative and wet process printing since it's more money and time spent on something you won't use much if you scan the film. I would still shot negative but focus on transparencies to see the immediate results. I would also recommend to bring a small digital camera with the same approximate focal length to take shots to have compare later and help see the exposure in the field.</p> <p>If you do get into it, personally I would recommend a basic field (flat bed) camera with good front movement controls and 2-3 lenses. Don't overwhelm yourself with too much camera which is bulky and takes longer to set up and use. You likely won't need or use back movements for most of your work, and field cameras are simple and easy to use and carry (fold into the size of a lunch box). My entire 4x5 and 3 lenses with 6 film holder, minus tripod, fits into a medium Lowe <a href="http://www.wsrphoto.com/lfblog11.html">camera bag</a>.</p> <p>There are several good books to start, Simmons - "Using the View Camera", Stone - "The User's Guide to the View Camera", and Stroebel - "View Camera Technique" among others. It's also the old adage about doing your homework on cameras, lenses, equipment, etc. And you get to learn the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle">Scheimpflug principle</a>. Lucky you. Good luck</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginia_john_mybusiness Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Only if they really want to learn about photography!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warren_williams Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Having learned photography in the film age I would tell you DON'T DO IT. Learn photography by getting an interchangeable lens digital camera and a single focal length lens. Place all the controls on manual and learn by getting instant feedback as you take photos of different things. Learn what a histogram shows and how to manually expose for the type of photograph you want. Don't change anything (no flash, no zoom) for 6 months. If you pay attention you'll understand exposure and depth of field pretty completely and everything else, like composition, you can experiment with for the rest of your life.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon_dragon Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I suspect you might need a high standard of physical fitness, or at least high load carrying capacity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_hale1 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Hi Bruno,<br />As you are “starting” and presumably don’t have enlargers etc. may I suggest :-<br />“Knowing what I know now” I would go 5 x 7 as it is the smallest but practical size to contact print.<br />I would develop in pyro/pyrocat hd using besseler tube and print on Lodima/Azo.<br />Later when I am comfortable I would look to going up to 11 x 14 again contact printing.<br />This may seem expensive but it is not really when you take into account all the big dark room gear.<br /><br />The above of course, presumes that you going to do B&W printing not colour.<br /> <br />Regards<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feodordefemina Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Yes</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>Yes you can if you REALLY want to. The feedback loop is very long, I would be sure to include an instant picture back in your kit so that you can see results immediately. Starting with LF will teach you a lot about technique, spontaneity may very well suffer.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_layton Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <p>OK - I'll put this another way. Maybe you should just find someone who uses large format - ask this person to allow you to get your head under the darkcloth. Allow your eyes to adjust to the upside-down image. Take hold of the focus and tilt controls...and allow yourself to be amazed - as in completely blown away. I've witnessed this...again and again - young photo students who by a leap of faith allow themselves to suspend this otherwise stubbornly persistent disbelief - based on...what, truly? And then they start to get it. How wonderful!<br> At any rate...I highly recommend that even if you don't begin with a large format camera - you at some point look through that dark cloth...take hold of those controls...and expand your horizons just a little bit more. And then...who knows?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 <blockquote> <p>I'm asking if it is possible (of course yes, I think) and if it is useful and formative to start photographing with a large format camera instead of a film/digital 35mm camera or a MF camera.<br> What do you think about? Which aspects would that involve?</p> </blockquote> <p>Is it <em>possible</em>? Yes.</p> <p>Is it <em>useful</em>? Potentially. But a lot depends on the type of photography that one intends to pursue. If you want to work in architectural, landscape, or desktop/macro photography, the view camera can teach you a great deal.</p> <p>But for sports, events, journalism, fashion - I question whether the view camera would yield much useful information. For these branches of photography, your time might be better spent studying the digital workflow (including digital exposure techniques and color management/white balance) and mastering the ins and outs of modern autofocus systems.</p> <p>Large Format might not be <em>practical</em> unless you already have access to some basic equipment and to someone who can help you get started. It depends on how much money and time you'd like to invest in your pursuit and the quality of the instructional information that you are receiving.</p> <p>You can learn an awful lot about photography with a Rebel and a kit lens and a copy of Lightroom. That's not to say that you won't benefit from exposure to large format shooting. Just consider the time and expense that LF would demand and whether it would be supportive of your objectives.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 <p>Yes, and if you have access to instruction and a lab even better where you both develop and print. A great way to learn the fundamentals of photography and there's no end to what you can learn. At the school I went to, there was a beginning 35mm b/w film class and often if you were a full time student you concurrently took view camera. Everyone eventually had it by the 2nd semester. Its great if you can find a class especially a community college level. Really I can't think of a better way to start.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_taylor3 Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 <p>When I graduated high school with a scholastic achievement medal in photography, I thought I new a lot about photography. My first boss on a small daily newspaper finally convinced me that I didn't know anything, it took 4 months since I was a slow learner. When he said I was finally ready to learn a little about photography, he gave me a Speed Graphic with one holder, (2 sheets of film) and Heiland a strobe. The rules were; the first sheet was on the paper, I had to pay for the second sheet of film if the image didn't publish. This is the point where I got serious about my craft and fell in love all over again with photography.</p> <p>Try to get your hands on "The Negative" by Ansel Adams, be deliberate, patient, and pay attention to every step of the process. <br> Large format is a stern teacher but the best I can think of!<br> Enjoy your journey!!</p> <p>Ron@spiritscapes.net</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 <p>You could, but it would not be a very efficient way to learn. A big part of learning photography is in getting the hands on experience of shooting and developing and printing and going back and doing it over again when you realize you've made a mistake. Something as simple as experimenting with exposure settings -- trying one shot that's by the meter and then one a stop over and one a step under, or trying different combinations of shutter speed and aperture that yield the same exposure -- are quick and easy in 35mm or even roll film. But they are very time consuming and require lots of expensive materials in large format. <br /><br />Starting off in large format would be a little like learning woodworking by building a house instead of a birdhouse. :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 <p>There is no greater teacher of how learn and control all the aspects of shooting, developing and printing than a view camera. You will learn more about exposure, and the relationship between exposure and development and then printing then a good view camera class. After that it makes all the rest easier, including digital. But yes, 35mm also allows you to focus on certain shooting techniques like DOF, (in terms of doing a quick range) bracketing exposure, different shutter speed/fstop relationships) though you do that all on the view camera. Best is to take a class on both. One or the other first, they both teach essentials that will help you no matter what type of photography and photographic equipment you will use. Another thing you get in a 35mm class is usually learn how to pan etc.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankz Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 <p>Large format, being the original capture device, is the ideal start. I say that because everything that's come afterwards is based on the principles set forth by one of those beasts.<br> Everything one <strong>should be thinking about </strong>when composing and making exposures with a camera of any format (2.25, 35mm, etc. and et al), digital or film, is included in making an exposure with large format equipment.<br> The key is the thought process of taking the picture. Burning up 200 sheets of film in a day is a major undertaking, not to mention expensive. 35mm and digital, in my mind, encourages sloppiness and laziness - the old timers had to make that one shot count. Quantity does not equate to quality.<br> If I were to teach a photography class, everyone would start with LF because to run those big boxes teaches all the principles we take for granted with our auto-everything roll film or electronic wonders.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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