Nikon Introduces Df Retro DSLR

<p>Andrew: The ISO dial is in 1/3 stop increment as they were with most good old film cameras like the FM, F2 etc.. and also is locked and you have to push a button just like the good old film cameras.</p>

<p>BeBu: Thanks for confirmation! Though I guess on film cameras it's a bit more likely that you didn't want to change it mid-shoot. Most film cameras I've used either had a button and adjustment (either by dial - as on the F5 and my Eos bodies - or buttons - as on the Pentax 645) or a clutch arrangement on the shutter speed dial (like my Bessa R). I generally don't mind the idea of interlocks, having developed flexible fingers from my F5, though I think a few people might get a surprise; I'll be interested to know what kind of tactile feedback there is on the dials, and what kind of detents are detectable.</p>

<p>Only 2 minutes long.<br>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgVGSBGAC0A</p>

Don, thanks for posting that. It reveals two items. Shutter speed only locks at 1/3 setting, and, the Sub-Command wheel

is easy to rotate with the index finger.

 

Nice.

<blockquote>

<p>Shutter speed only locks at 1/3 setting,</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Might lock on "X" as well - the F3 does. And just like on the F3, the lock button has to be kept depressed to change ISO or exposure compensation. This isn't a camera where this can be done without taking the camera away from the eye.</p>

<p>I think one of the previews suggested that X locks too. The EC dial does look like a bit of a pain to adjust, but it may be better with practice. I'm pleasantly surprised by the right front dial - I'm still not 100% sure about it, and would have to try it myself, but it seems to stand more proud of the front of the camera than I'd got the impression that it did from previous images. I'm (still, sigh) at work so I can't check the audio, but it looks like there are detents on the dials (probably good). The mode dial looks like a massive pain, but since I rarely change mode I can't really be critical on that front.<br />

<br />

So far, EC worries me most, but I'm tentatively positive. If you guys get the chance to play with one (which you probably will before me!) then I'll certainly be interested to know what you think.</p>

The lock on the mode dial seems extremely frustrating. I was always fine with the

mode dial having no locking mechanism,  but if people tend to change exposure

mode accidentally,  why not just make it rotate with a higher resistance instead of

having to unlock it every time? Anyway,  that's just my personal preference. Same

with exposure compensation.

 

One thing I am interested in is whether the main command dial can instantly

override the shutter speed dial. For instance if I want to set a shutter speed of 1/

160, can I select 1/125 on the shutter speed dial,  and then turn the main command

dial one click to the right,  or will I have to lock the shutter dial at the 1/3 stop

setting and then select the shutter speed with the main command dial? 

<p>The mode dial is a non- issue to me. I think most would agree, who shifts from mode to mode in a snap? I'm pointing this out only because it caught my attention, and the demo spent more time with it than any other feature, but like you I am pleased with the front command dial, and rear. It was obvious to me that there were clicks, and that the resistance was enough to get to the threshold of purpose, meaning, just right, or what is commonly known. I have an FA, and found that I never used shutter priority, and that my working style uses aperture priority, and manual. Subject tone ID, exposure comp if needed, then go, thats it, and some bracketing. What I'm still digging for with the Df is whether or not the command dials are programmable, switchable. If they are, I'm inclined to choose one over the other. Again, most Photographers have a shooting mode that their comfortable with, and It's my understanding most use aperture priority. I don't think I've ever used Program mode. Like, ever.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The ISO dial is in 1/3 stop increment as they were with most good old film cameras like the FM, F2</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>They only did that so you could 'theoretically' meter between eg Ilford FP4 @125 ISO and Fuji Velvia 100 ISO.</p>

<p>To have film sensitivity rated in 1/3 EV increments and both speed and aperture only in 1/2 EV increments never made much sense to me. Admittedly, the aperture can (could!) be used between 1/2 stops by going between detents.</p>

<p>ISO in 1/3 increments now makes complete sense as effectively it's the sensitivity AKA the amplifier setting.</p>

<p>I've been known to flick between shutter and aperture priority, but I have to admit that these days I spend most of my time in manual. It's nice to be able to change quickly, but to be honest I'm more frustrated with the cameras that waste perfectly good camera real-estate on an enormous dial for this - at least the dial on the Df is small. On the other hand, it only supports the "creative" modes; if you're going to waste any space on a dial, I could see merits in including the user/custom "modes" from the lower-end Nikon (and Canon) bodies. On an FA I'd be somewhat more likely to use shutter priority if I had changing light and wanted to ensure hitting a shake-free shutter speed - on a recent digital Nikon I tend to achieve this with auto-ISO. But I admit that, since I rarely shoot moving subjects with a film camera, shutter priority has to be my least-used mode. (I use aperture priority outdoors if I'm likely to bump into minimum ISO and want to increase the shutter speed, but I do enough indoor shooting or shooting of static subjects outdoors that manual + auto-ISO usually covers me.)<br />

<br />

I used to use program mode on my 300D, which didn't have any useful auto-ISO behaviour. These days, I only use it as a substitute for a green "dummy" mode. :-)<br />

<br />

Oliver: I <i>think</i> you have to put the dial into the explicit 1/3-stop mode. My impression, from previews, is that the dials are in charge; I wouldn't be surprised if there's no "quick ISO" or "quick EC", since that would stop the camera state being visible from above (though it would be visible in the finder or with the info button). I could be wrong. On the other hand, I do expect that you can switch the unlabelled dials, since you can do this on other Nikon DSLRs.<br />

<br />

Mike: There are cases where the amplifier has actually only had power of two settings, and everything else is digital scaling. (I'm trying to remember a camera for which this is true; the 5D2, possibly?) Essentially it meant that using a non-power-of-two ISO reduced quality. I'm not sure whether that's the case for more recent cameras; given the dynamic range behaviour of the D800 generation, you could essentially keep them at ISO 100 and scale digitally, but the D4 sensor isn't quite the same.<br />

<br />

I'm hoping the Df manual is going to crop up soon. At some point, I'll also be somewhere I can view the "stories" by Nikon's pet shooters - currently I can't view them on my tablet (requires flash support), I can't view them at work (no audio, and there are no subtitles), so I need to get around to firing up a PC at home...</p>

<p>Oliver! the command dial won't overide the shutter speed dial. The shutter speed dial has to be set at 1/3 to use the command dial. There is a question though. If one set the shutter speed dial at 1/3 and then use the command dial to set shutter speed of 1/125 and then turn the shutter speed dial to a different speed say 4 sec. and then turn it back to 1/3 would it still 1/125 then?<br>

Andrew! I found all EC's are difficult to use so I never use it. With the F3 I use the exposure hold button to hold the shutter speed then open or close the aperture for compensation. With the F5 I use M mode. The EC is too much trouble to use. Too slow.</p>

<p>So, how do I set the 'different' speed and aperture settings on my FM2n to deal with the 1/3 EV difference between 125 ISO and 100 ISO? </p>

<p>To be honest I never really thought about it or cared at the time, but I'm still curious..:-)</p>

<p>Exposure fine-tune in my Nikon D300 uses 1/6 EV increments.....Go figure!</p>

<p>OKay assume that the meter is correct. Set the ISO accordingly as you can set the FM2n for ISO 100 or 125. Set the shutter speed to the nearest speed you want to use. Set the aperture ring until the 0 only is lite up in the viewfinder. It's +/- 1/5 stop.</p>

<p>BeBu: I would assume the shutter speed in "use the rear dial" mode is persistent, since you'd have to go through the other settings to get back to the "1/3" mode. But we'll have to see. I didn't particularly find the F5's EC hard to use, though it's a bit easier to press on DSLRs. It would be nice if you could map it to one of the front buttons, rather than having to take a finger off the shutter release, but Nikon's policy of only letting you assign things that didn't already have another button (no matter how awkwardly that button is placed) applies, at least on the D800. But I use it more because of auto-ISO.<br />

<br />

Mike: 1/6 makes sense. It has to handle the 1/2 stop and 1/3 stop mode. Given that requirement, I'd just make it count in 1/6 stops as well. Allegedly the aperture control in video mode is more precise than that, on modern cameras.</p>

<p>I think in a camera with a command dial and a sub command dial, Nikon could do without the EC control. Since you don't need EC in manual mode so the read dial is for shutter speed and the front one is for aperture. In A mode the rear one would act as EC and in S and P mode the front one is EC. In P mode the rear one is still program shift. So you have a fast and convenient way to do EC. It does however exclude the use of EC to correct for the meter that always reads low or high.</p>

<p>Addendum: I do use shutter priority in manual mode with the F3, via aperture priority Auto, determine the common shutter speed, thereby setting the shutter as a priority, then adjust through aperture. So, whatever the choices, its always six, an a half one dozen of another.<br>

Sorry guys, I'm laughing my face off right now! But not at your expense, truly.</p>

<p>BeBu: I <i>do</i> need EC in manual mode - I discussed some reasons in <a href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00c4Ym">this thread</a>, so I won't regurgitate them here. I'd probably need it less if it was easier to change ISO dynamically in manual mode on Nikons; this is a general problem, not specific to the Df, but it's easier to change the exposure compensation on most other Nikons, as far as I can tell.<br />

<br />

With a digital camera, you have four controls, any three of which directly affect exposure:</p>

<ul>

<li>In manual with auto-ISO off: shutter, aperture, ISO (and a meter reading that doesn't affect exposure)</li>

<li>In manual with auto-ISO on: shutter, aperture, EC (camera modifies ISO)</li>

<li>In shutter priority: shutter, ISO, EC (camera modifies aperture)</li>

<li>In aperture priority: aperture, ISO, EC (camera modifies shutter)</li>

<li>In program: program shift, ISO, EC (camera modifies shutter and aperture)</li>

</ul>

<p>You can't get away with two dials without losing functionality. But I see it less as correcting for a meter that's always off than as a way for compensating for conditions - either with the matrix when you expect it to be confused, or the simple meter modes when you know you're not metering off mid grey (e.g. spot metering on a face, metering snow...)<br />

<br />

Don: Care to share? It's Friday, I could do with a laugh!</p>

<p>Andrew, My post is what struck me funny at the time. I could barely understand it myself. It's just that there are many ways through modes, and whatever dials or buttons provides them to get to the same place. The combinations of shutter speed, aperture, and asa, vary, and are understood differently to the individuals known way of working. It's the finding of a comfort zone that Photographers seek out, and there's a point when it doesn't matter who likes what. As I have mentioned before, what is attractive to me about the Df is the offering of a working, and proven option to get to that comfortable place in the path of operating a camera. It's understandable that the buyer, and the expense involved with a camera like this, that through each release should provide an advancement, the, ' Silver bullet,' to justify a state of the art item to justify the cost.<br>

I think by now its clear what my impressions of the Df is, as I've been relatively eager to go to its defense against what I perceive, in another forum, not here, by the way, unjust commentary.<br>

Seeing anything for what it is, in this case a machine, goes to the vary practice of the Photographic experience, because the picture doesn't lie, and we all face that reality every time we fail taking a picture. The Df provides options for ease of operation, its light, has a well renowned, respected sensor of the D4, reaches out to, and abides by Nikons lens lineage. Because of its size, and weight that one can take anywhere. The jury is still out as to whether or not the Dfs ease of operation options fulfills its intent, but what camera fulfills all things? 6 days left until the Df hits the counters. I've never seen, or participated in a more talked about, almost unrealistic camera release in my Photo experience. It's significant, so much so that there will be disappointments when the dust settles, but should that detract from the reality of what the Df is.</p>

<p>Don: Ah, I'm probably used to dealing with much less understandable documents, so it passed me by. :-)<br />

<br />

I do completely support the idea of a camera having dedicated, fixed-position dials for people who prefer that way for working. I'm not convinced that it's a <i>better</i> way of doing it than the "conventional" high-end DSLRs, and I get equally defensive when some assert that it is (I'm glad you think we've been reasonably fair here despite my protests!), but I completely defend your right to have a camera feel familiar to you and fit with your needs.<br />

<br />

I do have a few reservations about where exactly Nikon chose to put the dials, from an ergonomic perspective - not that I think they didn't consider different options, but there are compromises to fast working with the details of those dials. I would like to think that a different configuration might be better, although, given that Nikon must have put some thought into this, I don't necessarily have a complete better suggestion. That Nikon acknowledge the influence of the ergonomics by suggesting that the photographer is expected to slow down is, to me, an acknowledgement of defeat. This genuinely won't bother many shooters, and I'm okay with that, but it would be nice to have a solution that was both familiar to manual shooters <i>and</i> ergonomically less compromised. I see inconveniences and I try to think around them; it's the way my brain works. If I was better at it, ever followed through, or didn't hate the patent system with a passion, I'd probably be a rich inventor; instead, I just spend all my time thinking "why isn't <i>that</i> better?"<br />

<br />

The Df is <i>different</i> - and it's a bit harder to dismiss as a toy than something like the 1-system. It's also different in an <i>old</i> style, rather than trying to introduce something entirely new and unknown (and about which, therefore, there is less to say). Combined with coming from a major manufacturer (sorry to everyone outside the big two, but I'm sure it helps) and not being quite such an incremental process as some of the other big ergonomic changes (four thirds predating micro 4/3, X100 being a compact before the X-Pro1, Sony having a NEX range before the full frame versions - though I've not seen how big all those threads got) it's not surprising we've had a lot to say. Besides, the Nikon forum here is more active than most. And not just because I talk too much.<br />

<br />

Anyway, I'm interested in the reality of the Df, not the hype, at least beyond what I can deduce about Nikon's marketing strategies. I <i>probably</i> don't want the camera (I may have an Otus to save for - think there's be a special edition with a metal band on it?) but I'm intrigued by what it can do. Roll on, (more) reviews. Besides, I want to see how much longer this thread gets when the reviews roll in. :-)</p>

<p>Andrew,<br>

I couldn't agree more regarding the arrangement of the dials. I also have questioned this.</p>

<p>469 responses to a camera that is not yet released??? Pleeease!!! I recommend buying one, or not. In the mean time, pick up your trusty current camera and take some pics.</p>

<p>I doubt that I'll be a Df owner anytime soon, but I would like to thank Nikon for a. offering something different, and b. for showering us with an embarrassment of riches in the digital full frame (FX) world.</p>

<p>D800<br>

D800E<br>

D610<br>

D4<br>

Df</p>

<p>That's an amazing line up. Two years ago, our choices were more limited and more expensive. The D3X cost four times what a D610 lists for, yet the D610 provides the same resolution and corrects the D3X's poorly-designed Live View implementation. The D800 series has been groundbreaking. The D4 is a high-speed, high-ISO workhorse, and the Df inherits the same workhorse sensor.</p>

<p>I don't understand comments such as "if Nikon would make a model in between X and Y, I would buy it". They already offer five (!) very capable FX models. Pick one up and start shooting today. Calendars don't run backwards.</p>

 

<p>Dan, in that list only one goes over 6 fps and that's the D4 @ £4300 ($6880) body only. Most people wanting a 'gap filler' want a camera with a burst speed capable of 8fps* just like the <em>old</em> 2008 model D700.</p>

<p>That was 5 years ago and available frame rates in your FX line-up have gone <em><strong>backwards!</strong></em><br>

<em><strong> </strong></em><br>

<em>*</em>.....and I don't want to restart the '<em>if you had better timing, you don't need a high fps</em>' argument. If you don't understand why people need it, you don't need it. Simples!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Pleeease!!! I recommend buying one, or not. In the mean time, pick up your trusty current camera and take some pics.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Then we would have to start another anxious inquiry, not "Which one should I buy?" but "Which one should I shoot?"</p>

<p>ANYTHING but getting up off our duffs and going out the door, camera and lens in hand. . .</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>469 responses to a <a id="itxthook0" href="/nikon-camera-forum/00c829?start=470" rel="nofollow">camera<img id="itxthook0icon" src="http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png" alt="" /></a> that is not yet released??? Pleeease!!! I recommend buying one, or not. In the mean time, pick up your trusty current camera and take some pics.</p>

 

</blockquote>

 

 

 

 

Some of us will buy it and some won't. Some of us like the camera and some of us hate it. But we post in this forum because we all want to talk about this Nikon Df camera. This is a forum for us to express our thought is it not? So why would you tell us to stop posting?